SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey, I'm Lauren.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

And I'm Matt.

SPEAKER_01 0:03

And this is Publish and Prosper.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Where publishing, technology, and marketing collide. Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Publish and Prosper. Today is a very special episode. We've put a lot of work into this episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

So much.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

So we hope everybody enjoys it. But it's special because it's our first official non-Lulu employed guest. So all five listeners should be happy about that. Just kidding.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

That's a joke I haven't heard in like a year.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

No, I made that joke like six months ago. We're actually really excited. We're going to be joined today by one of our favorite people. Set aside the fact that this person's a creator, an author, an amazing business consultant, an amazing sponsorship coach. This person has done some amazing things with their book. And so we figured our first guest really should set the bar for any other guests we're going to have on. Which actually might be a bad thing because now maybe nobody else can live up to this bar.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

You know, he's actually already set the bar on this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Because while this is his first time here with us, actually for real.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

You also just ran my reveal.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

I'm so sorry. Our secret mystery guest who has been featured in an episode before. It is our uh number one episode to date.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

In terms of listens.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

It is our most listened to and most watched episode to date.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Yeah, so Reveal's been ruined. It's Justin Moore, obviously. I'll come back hard. Actually, maybe what we should do is just give our podcast over to Justin Moore, anyways. If his last episode that he wasn't even actually physically on, is our best episode to date, this one's either going to be amazing or we're just going to have to concede our episode over to him and he can run it. Well, which actually would be cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

In all fairness, at this point I kind of feel like I'm a Lulu employee. So I I don't know. For sure you are. Given how much I talk about you guys. No, it's an honor. I'm I'm really excited to be here and um kind of I think maybe share some breaking news to kind of get the vibes rolling. Like maybe we can because I I really haven't talked about this anywhere. I haven't made a big announcement, but uh I just hit 10,000 copies sold of the book.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

So I think this is you're gonna have to slow down there, Justin.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Why?

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Why? Because unfortunately, the last 30 were us. What? So technically, you sold 9,970. I'm gonna need you to go sell 30 more.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Okay. I'll well, by the end of this episode, I'll have made 30 sales, hopefully, for these listeners.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Just kidding. These were gifted to me by Justin. I actually brought these home in a suitcase on the airplane from San Antonio, Texas. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

But also, I have seen Justin absolutely go through a room and probably hey, and sell 30 copies in like 15 seconds.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

100%. Like an ice cream man on a hot day at the beach, like nobody's business.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

It's I mean, to the point where I've also seen other people. I was at Momentum last year, which Justin was not at. And somebody asked something about like how do I get sponsors for my brand? And before I could open my mouth, three other people in the room were like, have you have you looked up Justin Moore? Just have you checked out his book?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

I believe it. I believe it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

So anyway, congrats, Justin. That's amazing. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. And I couldn't have done it without you guys, which I'm sure we'll talk about.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

We would we would give you a confetti thing, but if you've ever watched our podcast before, you know it's really hard for me to get confetti here. I basically had to sign off on an act of Congress to get it last time I got it. So just pretend there's confetti like everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Can I maybe I'll shoot the money gun? There you go.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Let's go. There we go.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

We have also used those on a podcast episode before that's true. They did come in handy.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

100%.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Also, I'd be much more willing to throw confetti in this space because this is your office. So you're the one that has to deal with the confetti.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Justin, do you want a job?

SPEAKER_00 4:56

That's why I'm a creator because I don't want a job anymore.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

You definitely don't want a job working with me. 10,000 copies is absolutely insane. Especially in the amount of time that you've done it. And to put context on this thing, most NYT bestsellers barely break the 10,000 mark. Did you know that?

SPEAKER_00 5:17

I actually didn't know that. I thought it I thought you had to like sell like 10 or 15,000 copies in the first week to like get on that list or something. No.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

No. It's a joke. And and outside of the NYT, most traditionally published books in general that you might find out of Barnes and Noble or something like that, they're lucky if they sell 5,000 copies.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

For anyone that uh does not remember the episode that we did with Justin previously, which I will link in the show notes. At that episode, he had just sold a thousand copies.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Wow, really?

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Yeah. Yeah. So that episode was on how Justin Moore sold 1,000 copies of his book. And now here we are. I think it's a little a little more than a year later. And it's 10,000.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

That's pretty crazy. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Thank you. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

And I assure everybody these were not included in that candle. So legitimately, it's gotta be 10,000 plus a few, I would say. Well, that's what we're gonna talk about today, right? So that is truly a crazy number. I think anybody that's been in the publishing game for a decent amount of time understands that number. For those who haven't, for people that are listening to us that are a little more in that creator vein or live in that world where Justin lives, again, you heard the context. 10,000 is wild. And, you know, we'll get into all of this, but I can almost guarantee you when we start talking to Justin, his goal wasn't to make a million dollars with the book itself directly. And there were a lot of things that went into why Justin wrote this book, why he sold 10,000 copies, but more importantly, the real numbers behind that 10,000, what that actually does for Justin, his brand, his business, um, and some of the things it didn't do for Justin and his brand and his business.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

I want to start with what might be a basic question, but actually just ask since you've gone from 1,000 to 10,000, what changed or nothing? Like did you just keep the same strategy? Did you do something different?

SPEAKER_02 7:35

How did you keep that momentum going? Yeah. Yeah. How did you keep that momentum going?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

So uh I can credit legitimately, I can credit you, Matt, with a session that I sat in at CEX in year one.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Or year two, year two, um where you did a session with Lolly, I think. And you talked about uh you put this chart on the screen um of the sales over time for the average author, and just showing that like right after published date, it just kind of goes asymptotically to zero over a couple months, basically. Because the thing you said at that time was like, you know, the author has birthed this baby, they're so creatively done with it that they're just like, all right, it's in the universe now, and whatever happens, happens, and then they just kind of move on to the next thing. And I just remember seeing that chart, and I hadn't, I don't I don't think I'd even written the book yet. Um and I just stored that away. I was like, that's not gonna be me. And so it sounds like a very simple answer, but it it's that. I did the opposite of that. I just never allowed myself to stop talking about it. You know, it's been almost, I guess, close to two years since the book came out, a year and a half. Um and I just every event I'm at, every, you know, I'm still plugging it in newsletters, I'm still plugging it in podcast episodes and YouTube videos when I'm on podcasts interview, being interviewed by other people. It's like the main call to action. Um and it's really not that complicated. I mean, obviously well to be fair, you know, uh this is kind of nerdy, but you talk about the K factor. Some I I think about this sometimes as like K-factor in this context is like how many other people are evangelizing this book on my behalf instead of me, like you said, Lauren, with that example. How many people are like popping up and being like, oh, you should read this book? Um, you have to write a good book. I I think you have to write a good book for that to happen, right? And so I I did the hard work of like writing a good book, I think. But then after the a thousand copies, it's like, are people gonna recommend this when someone actually has an issue in their real life that the book could solve? And so like that's the hard work of like, you know, going from one to ten or ten to a hundred or whatever it is, is like, does this solve a problem, at least in the nonfiction kind of self-help category? And so I think it it's that, it's that is like evangelizing, but also you have to feel confident that your book is going to be recommended by others. Um and and a big part of that is also like finishing the book too, or getting through enough of the book for someone to feel comfortable recommending it. And so I think it was those two things uh that that really made the difference.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

I think the confidence piece has to be there, or you don't feel good enough to keep promoting your own book, right? Like if the imposter syndrome sets in, or you don't truly believe the content is adding value for whatever reason, then yeah, you're gonna fall down on the promotional aspect of it. Our friend Lashonda asked me a question in an interview the other day. She asked me, what's the one thing that people who self-publish get wrong? What's the one thing they don't do right? And again, it's the opposite of what you just said. They don't market their book at all. They it feels icky to them, or they're not quite sure how to do it, and they don't want to seek out, you know, advice or help. Um, they feel weird asking other people to recommend their book, you know, friends and family, whatever it might be, but it's such a huge mistake because that chart that you're referring to, I've used it often, and it shows that cliff after three months, essentially. That's the average amount of time where the average self-published author, whether it's nonfiction or not, they either move on to the next book or they move on to something else, or they start feeling the sales ick, right? They they stop evangelizing about their own book because they feel like they're trying to sell somebody on something. In actuality, you are. And whether or not you're selling your book because you want the money from the book, or you're selling your book because the book is a gateway to something else, like in your case, either way, that's typically what happens is after that average three-month period, they just stop. They don't put it in the header or the bio of their social media, it's not in their newsletter, like you said. They just literally stop. And what do you think is gonna happen if you stop promoting your own book? Everybody else is gonna stop too. So, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

You've also done a lot of this publicly, like not just per marketing or promoting the book or anything in general, but you've you've been very, very public with talking about it before, during, and after, talking about sales goals, talking about the different effects that it's had. I feel like every time I see a post of yours on any social channel where you're talking about your book, I I see at least one person commenting on it and talking about like, so glad I was able to buy a copy and help you get towards that sales goal. Or like this book was so great. It did XYZ thing for me. And like I feel like that really is just like a self-fueling cycle where the more you talk about it, the more other people talk to you about it, and then the more that gets them talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

I've been pretty conscious that like to some of your points earlier, Matt, that like, and we'll I'm sure we'll get to this, but like from the beginning, I never thought I was gonna make a bunch of money from this book. That wasn't the purpose of it. Like, I was you know, it wasn't the goal. But I even took that a step further uh to the point where like I have given out probably thousands of copies of the book at this point, maybe three or four thousand copies. That's that's in addition to the 10 grand that I've sold. So I've got I'm probably close to like, you know, close to 15,000 copies like in circulation right now because I have just been basically taking money out of my own pocket and saying, yes, I will send five hundred, I will donate five hundred copies of my book to this conference, or I will donate thirty copies to your you know, little in-person meetup in Rhode Island or stuff like anytime I I sniff out that there's like some sort of gathering of creators, I'm like, can I donate books? Right? Because I know it's it's this whole idea that like, you know, more books in the in the wild uh will will mean more evangelists and will you know me mean more um advocacy for the concepts and the frameworks and the things that I believe. And that's only going to be a positive thing downstream for the business.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

There's a couple things that that we can visually see right now that you've done. And then, you know, I had a question as well that's going to speak to return on that investment, but I'll hold that question. What I want to say or ask right now is it's very evident that you did other things as extensions of your book, whether it was merch, branding, uh you started an event, basically, which we'll get to. But even something as simple as even right now, your microphone has your sponsor magnet sort of logo on it. Um there's a number of things you've done. And you know, again, I just wanted to go back to this idea that you know, so many people feel like it's just icky or too self-serving to do these types of things. But I mean, if you've got a clear-cut goal like you did, if you have clear-cut intentions on why you're doing this, these things shouldn't feel icky. And quite frankly, I've never seen a post you've made or anything else where somebody commented or even talked to somebody afterwards and they were like, oh, this guy's always pushing his book. I've never heard somebody say that in a negative way, right? But I think again, especially other authors or even creative people who don't like to deal with the sales and business and marketing side of what they're doing, um, that just feels off for them. And I think you're great proof that it's not. Like this is what you gotta do.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

The reality is that most people are not gonna see the things that you post. In in today's social media landscape, if you'll if you post, if I post 10 times about my book, maybe one time the average person will see that post. That's just the inherently the nature of the social media algorithms. Anyone anyone can look up their organic reach relative to how many people follow them. Um and you know, pretty much every platform, you know, these platforms are determining who who gets to see what content, right? I always say, like, you know, you you have to be constantly talking about the things that are important to you because the vast majority of people are never going to see it. So, yeah, you may think you talked about this thing, you know, 10 times in the last eight weeks, but like most people haven't seen those. And so I think that that's another aspect of it is realizing that this is a uh a reality when it comes to the landscape right now on the internet.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

That's a great point. Yeah, I didn't even think about that. But yeah, I mean, you might post 10 times in one day, and I might only see one of those 10 posts. And in fact, I probably will only see one of those 10 posts. So that's that's a great piece of advice I think people can carry away with them. Is if you're feeling like you're talking about it too much, that's just you. That's your own internal sort of barometer, which is wrong. You know, fight against that and keep posting, keep talking about it, because again, if you're lucky, one in ten times will sink in. So that's really good.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

And and also, who cares? Even if, even if most people see it like, you know, a couple times, or you get one comment, like, oh, you just chill in your book again. It's just like, who cares? Fine, go cry, get out of here. I don't want like go eat Cheetos in the basement or something. Like, I don't I don't need you as a reader, I don't need you as a follower if you're gonna get mad for me promoting my art or my work. Like this is I this was a labor of love. I put so much effort into this, and you can buy for $10. Like, get out of here. Like, I don't want you anymore, you know?

SPEAKER_02 17:22

That's the best answer so far. That has to be a sound clip, too. Absolutely. Go go eat Cheetos in the basement. I'm gonna use that.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

I think that is something that like eating Cheetos in a basement?

SPEAKER_02 17:36

Well, it's definitely something.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Not something any of us need to be doing.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

I love Cheetos.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

I know you do. Do you have a basement?

SPEAKER_02 17:45

No, I don't.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah, I didn't think so.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

I'll have to go to Justin's house and eat him in his basement.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Justin, can you get him some Cheetos? Do you have a basement?

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Yeah, I mean, well, when you guys come out for Sponsor Games 2027, yeah, we come over to my basement.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Great.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

See that plug?

SPEAKER_01 18:01

That's how you get lured into a basement.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

That's why he's the boss. All right, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Um, but no, I do think that's something that people really tend to forget, is that yeah, like, who cares? Oh no, this person that doesn't even follow you is mad at you for talking about your book. They can go write their own book about how mad they are that you don't stop talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Yeah, I think it's symptomatic of a of a social world that we live in. It just heightens everybody's already innate, sort of like fear that somebody's not going to like them. As humans, we we all have that. Others more so, I typically don't care, but I think social media just heightens that. And so, yeah, I think in general, at least again, this is my experience in talking to authors and creators as to why they're part of that three-month cliff dive. That's what I usually get back from them, is it feels ickys to me, or I don't want somebody to you know call me out for constantly talking about my book. And so again, I just think it's symptomatic of living your life on a in a social platform that way. It also speaks to why you should be, you know, experimenting with other platforms and channels. But at the end of the day, you're both right. Who cares? You just gotta keep doing it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Independently from the book, Justin, I think you are somebody that every time I see your content on social media, I'm like, this is what happens when you just go for broke. Like when you don't listen to the people that are like the like naysayers in your head. You're like, I'm gonna put on a really bad black wig and do the greatest reel of all time that is in the most bad.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Who's calling my black wig bad?

SPEAKER_01 19:53

I mean, that was I mean, I did watch the bloopers where it fell off so clearly.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

And don't look at Copy. She's an Elder Emo. Like, she loves it. Deep down, she was pieds.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

What band inspired that specific thing?

unknown 20:06

No.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

I mean, yeah, I think it all comes back to like who cares? Like, like this is I was in a metal band in high school, and like this is part of who I am. And like, you know, there's so much just like meh content on the internet. Like, I just keep swiping, you know. It's just like, why not have fun? Why not be yourself? I wasn't like this in the beginning. I think that's important to note. Like, when I when my especially when my wife and I first started like on YouTube many years ago, I felt like I had to be super buttoned up and uh talk a certain way and you know, have my hair perfect and like you know, just like be as super. Do you have perfect hair? Well, thank you. I was hoping you'd say that. No, but I like like for real, over the years I've gotten more and more unhinged because again, it's like who cares?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

But I think that's what pays off. And I think that's why like the conversation about the can book j doesn't really die off, and it doesn't really, and people continue to engage with you, the book, the brand in general, is the fact that you're just unapologetically genuine in talking about all of the above. And I think that people gravitate to that and that it's probably moved the needle in at least a couple hundred of those 10,000 copies.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Probably more, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yeah. You know, I just I I think that's something that is just like when people ask, like, how do you possibly sell 10,000 copies of a book? It doesn't necessarily have to be this 27-step insane marketing plan. It could be something as simple as like, hey, go online and keep talking about it, and don't be afraid to be yourself while you're talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

One maybe tertiary, can I use that word? Tertiary thing that we haven't discussed here about the momentum of the book is that I very, very consciously wrote it. To be evergreen. Like I very much consciously try to not mention dates or social platforms or because we all know those come and go. But like I imagine if someone picks up this book in 10 years, like will this book still be relevant to people? And so I think that that's also another factor of like how your book can continue to live on, is that you know, if someone picks it up and reads the dust jacket or the you know little preview or something and it feels like very dated, um, that can also, you know, be a reason that someone doesn't pick it up. Oh, this doesn't feel like it's for me. You know, and so I think that that's like another again, part of coming back to the writing process that like if you want to write something that continues to sell, that has to factor into it, I think.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

It's funny that you say that because I Justin was one of my beta readers for my book. And hands down, by the way, the best feedback I got was from Justin. It was almost immediate. It was like three pages full of really valid stuff. Like, I got feedback from other people that I could tell they either just skimmed through or didn't really, and that's fine. Like, I understand. But Justin's was nearly immediate, and it was one of the things he pointed out almost immediately in his feedback was that I had actually put a lot of the names of social media platforms in the marketing section of my book, or I had used certain things that would pretty much date my content, and I I wasn't even thinking about that. And so, you know, back to your point about you know, trying to write the best content that you can, and you know, consequently, also the more evergreen you can make it, A, the less revisions you ever have to worry about doing. But B, yeah, it can just be out there and be living and breathing without you having to worry about is this going to be relevant for this next wave of creators coming in? You know it's pretty much gonna be relevant because they're all core concepts. You're not naming a bunch of names or time boxing a bunch of things. So that's really good feedback too.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Let's talk about the power of print on demand when it comes to making revisions to your book, revisions to your manuscript uh to serve your business over the long run. Um, because I have now made one significant revision to the book, and I'm just about to make a second. What I'm talking about here is that like, you know, one of the major calls to action in the book is like scan this QR code and you'll get a bunch of bonus resources in exchange for your email address. Basically, you join my newsletter to get these bonus resources. Um and like obviously that's very intentional. Like, I really want to, you know, if my reader ends up purchasing the book other than somewhere other than my website, um, and I don't have their buyer's information or their reader's information, I want to be able to collect that. And that's one of the reasons why the bonus resource exists. But my business has changed since the book came out, right? And so for like concretely, I had a course that I was I talked about in the book, and that was like something a lot of people knew me from. Um but since that, since you know, in the last year and a half, I have discontinued that course. Or you you basically have to join the coaching program to get access to it. Additionally, I'm now doing free strategy sessions, free strategy calls. Um, and I have people like on my team who are who are getting on phone calls with business owners and entrepreneurs who like need help with their sponsorship strategy. That's not something that I had available when the book came out. Um, but it's like a huge lever uh you know for lead generation, basically, right? And so I I did a revision of the book and I got rid of the course mentions and I replaced those basically with um mentions of like getting on a call with my team. Um and so now, like within a you know, 48 hours basically, I'm able to update those files and just uh, you know, the uh when I use when someone purchases my book and it gets sent to Lulu to be fulfilled, all from this point forward, all those copies now have this updated call to action, basically. And so it's just like it's super hard to describe, you know, with the traditional publication process how arduous and difficult that second edition process is. And so the just the fact that I can do that completely on my own um is just is just a game changer.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

People ask me all the time, if if if they put me on the spot, like what's the one reason why you know somebody should indie publish their book? You know, whether it's with us or someone, what's the one reason why you should do that? And the one reason or the one answer is control. You as a creator, I mean you said it earlier, you you are a creator, so that you don't have to be tied to a brand or sit in here with somebody like me and be beholden to my you know, my quirks and my you know, poor Lauren. But like it's control. It's control over the content, when and where it gets put out, what it looks like, how often you update it, almost immediate, by the way. It's control over what you price it at, what you sell it for, who you sell it to. It's control on, you know, again, what it looks like. It's control on where in the world it's being sold to. And you've already done some license, some rights licensing. You've got you know, uh books being sold in other countries now. Like you don't get any of that control in any other publishing path, really, for the most part. And so creators Or just like giving away my book.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Like I talked to so many of my traditionally published friends, they're like, I can't give my book away. Like, like I'm that just is insane to me. Yeah, you're not supposed to. But like it's just it's it's wild to me. Or like I decided when I when I recorded my audiobook, I recorded myself, I filmed myself, and I'm like, I'll use this, use this footage one day. Um, and so I just released a four and a half hour video on YouTube with my audiobook. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

I saw that. I was gonna ask about that.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

That was so cool when I because I was looking for the emo video to link to when I saw the audiobook on YouTube, and I was like, wow, that is such a cool idea. The fact that you have that content at all. And then the fact that you put it up there, I think is great.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

And you also did um with the audiobook, you included some bonus content in there too, didn't you?

SPEAKER_00 28:06

I did, yeah. I mean, that was the other, you know. So honestly, like, you know, a lot of authors, you know, try to have everything come out at once, right? You've got the physical, you've got the ebook, you've got the audiobook. All right, it's all idea. I honestly was just so overwhelmed with the launch of the book itself that I was just like, I can't even think about taking on a like recording of the audiobook and doing all that. And it turned out to be a blessing in disguise, actually, because it just made another marketable event. Like, okay, the audiobook is ready, you know, and so six months later or whatever, five months later, um, when I recorded the audiobook, um, but I but I really thought, like, how can I make this uh not just a new format, but very special, like a like a uh, you know, some sort of um moment of of uh because because really the benefit of of the book being out for five months before the audiobook being recorded is that a ton of people had read it already and gotten great results and told me they got great results. And so I was like, you know what? Why would I not just interview some of these people as little bonuses at the end of each chapter? Um and so you know, I've my eight-step sponsorship wheel, you know, pitch and negotiate. So like I I select hand-selected people who said, hey, this particular chapter helped me get a deal or help me negotiate more money. And so I brought them on and had little five to 15 minute interviews. And um it's just I think it's a really special listening experience and again kind of differentiate. I'm just trying to innovate. I don't know what I'm doing. That's the other thing. I I'm not like beholden to any rules of like what I'm supposed to be doing as an author or like because I'm just doing this on my own. I'm like, what would be cool? What would what would serve my readers the most? And to me, like interviews of people saying like this is uh how I actually took this and executed uh felt pretty cool. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

We did an episode a while back that was um actually I think I think it might have been inspired by sponsored games. Um but it was kind of uh an episode on what do I think that authors should be learning from content entrepreneurs, and the other way around, what content entrepreneurs could learn from authors. And I do think that's one of the things that you've done really well here is that you're not trying to play by an author playbook. You are using the skills that you have, the experience that you have, and not saying, well, this is what an author would do, but just saying, what if I tried doing this? And it's clearly paid off. You've talked a lot throughout this about different things that you've done that are more or less giving away free content, whether it's free copies of the book, putting the audiobook on YouTube, um, the free the free courses, not free courses, consultations. Consultations that you were just talking about. Sounds to me like something that is high risk, high reward. Do you think that there is like a lot of high risk in that? Or do you think the reward is worth it?

SPEAKER_00 31:08

A huge amount of risk. Okay. I mean, I can I can put a dollar value to it actually, because when I was, you know, I was doing my course that I mentioned, was doing 15 to 20k a month in revenue before the book came out, and it went to basically zero over.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

And and the book pretty much killed that, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:25

It did. I mean the book killed it. I like but the thing is that I did this intentionally. Like I saw the writing on the wall. I knew that you know, courses were on the decline, I knew that um, you know, especially when everyone has a infinitely patient, infinitely knowledgeable assistant in their pocket, you know, over the next five, 10, 15 years, uh just like sitting and watching an on-demand course for four hours is just like not gonna be the way in which most people learn. Yeah. I just saw the writing on the wall. And so I was like, okay, well, let me just open source everything now. And open source, meaning like put it all in the book for 10, 20 bucks, whatever. Right. Um, and so I it it was, I'm I'm gonna be I actually haven't really talked much about this publicly, but like it was a bumpy transition. Like to go from that was like a significant revenue driver for me, but it was a bet in the long term. It was a bet in the coaching program, which is really what I was shifting the model of the business to. Um that like, you know, if someone has the knowledge, but like I need help with the implementation, I knew that that was the model that was going to be the next chapter of the business. But there was like a six, nine-month period there where it was like it was like tight financially because I just I was I I had the like vision that like this is where we're gonna be, but like, you know, that there's a difference between that and actually living it. And so yeah, it was it was high risk for sure. Like it's possible that like people could have read it and be like, but like my my my theory was always like more people who who understand my methodology and the way in which I believe that you should approach sponsorships, if I could reach those people. This this was really the if I if it all boiled down to it, it was like yes, I had a lot of people on my newsletter and watching my YouTube videos and stuff, but like the people that I really want to work with are probably never gonna watch my YouTube videos or watch, you know, listen, subscribe to my newsletters. That's what I wanted to get to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like like just as an example, like I just did a little guest session for a community of content creators in the supply chain industry. Yeah. So like I'm never gonna reach that person who's like a supply chain person on the marketing staff at some at Flexport or something. Like, I'm I'm never gonna they're not gonna watch my content, but they might read my book. Right. And so this was the belief is like a different, like a that the format of a book is this just universal knowledge transfer thing that is now is not gonna change forever, I don't think. Um, and so I think that that's that's really why I decided to make this bit. It was high risk, but I think ultimately it's gonna be high reward.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Well, you said something one time, um, and I don't remember if you and I were just talking directly, um, or it was at an event possibly. You might have even been on stage at some point. But basically what you said was one of the things the book has done was it allowed you to get in rooms that you would never be able to get into previous to that. And I think it's kind of the same thing you just said, but you you went on to give a different example of getting in a room with a brand. Um, a brand that was probably three levels up from where you were normally pitching yourself to, right? Like, uh and that really struck me like, yeah, the difference between, you know, telling somebody like, go check out my YouTube video and trying to land them as a sponsor, right? Or or a brand. And and handing them the book. Like you literally wrote the book on this thing. Like, yeah, if you have time, check out my book, whatever that is. And it's a whole nother level, a whole nother caliber of of clientele that you're you're you're able to get in front of now. Um, probably a little easier, like you said, at times, but I think that really struck me too is like, yeah, you essentially bet on yourself when you talk about betting. You made a big bet on yourself. But you knew what was coming down the pike, you made a bet on yourself, you put this book out, you kind of open sourced your program, what you're doing. But the the bet was that coming down the pike or the tailwind would be yes, it's gonna open up newer and bigger rooms for you that you probably would not be able to access otherwise. And I think a lot of people struggle to connect those dots or think about that. Or, you know, again, I I think this is applicable in one way or another in the world of fiction too, but a lot of this is somewhat nonfiction-based. You know, you're writing something utilitarian in nature, it's meant to solve a problem, like you said. But to me, that was just a really cool statement. Like, I'm in rooms now that I couldn't have got in before. That's a very impactful thing to say. And again, for to be able to tie that back to one thing, right? This this book is super cool. Now, beyond that, again, I'm assuming, you know, and maybe now, I've always been curious. We talk about return on your investment. These are some of the, you know, sometimes tangible, sometimes intangible, but the idea that a book gets you into a room you couldn't get in before, that is a return, that is a benefit. It's not always, you know, hard numbers behind it. But if we're talking about hard numbers, if we're talking about things you already, you know, threw out there, like up front, and you knew this would happen, the book kind of killed, you know, somewhere between 50 to 20K that was coming in per month. The flip side of that is are you able to unequivocally point to some clients that you've gained now post-writing the book that bring in much higher numbers that you can that you can confidently or unequivocally say it's probably because I wrote this book?

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Oh, I can definitively say I I have so I have a handful of private clients that I work with directly, and I have three of them. And they one in particular is doing close to close to eight figures in sponsorship revenue a year. And uh that one client alone pays me more monthly than uh my corporate job when I when I was in medical devices. So you think about the scale of a that a that a client like that is operating at, like that is a rounding error.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Uh, you know, to in terms of the deal sizes that I'm helping them negotiate. And so and that came from the book. They read the book, they bought the book for all their team people on their team, and then they reach out and they said, This is what they said though. They said, Hey, you know, we're not creators really, um, and influencers, but like we wrote we read your book because there's really no other books about this, but we're doing a huge amount of sponsorships and like we need help. Like, can you help people like us? So it was like, I'm sure there's like many more people out there that haven't made that jump. They're like, oh, it seems like it's for creators, not like for the very niche industry of like of this client, you know. And so I there's still work to be done. There's still work to be done to know that like I can I can actually help a lot of really more like professional type type folks, um, not people who would ever call themselves creators. And so you're 100% right. Like I can directly attribute financially that like this was a great investment. And that's just personal clients. Like, I'm not even talking about my coaching program where I have other coaches and I have this in-person event, like you mentioned. And so like it's just been, it was the best thing that I've ever done professionally was write the book and and consciously kill off these other revenue streams because of it.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

One of the things that you just said in there, Justin, was the audience that you maybe predicted the book was for is not uh, oh my god, what's words? Inclusive necessarily uh of everyone that has like it's gone beyond the scope of that. Has that impacted how you market the book or how you talk about the book to people? Or not really, you just keep letting it do its thing and the right people come across it, even if they weren't the people that you expected to.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Yeah, that's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Yeah, um, for sure. It's impact. I mean, you know, in the early days, I was really using it's even come down to like the vocabulary that I use. So like, you know, I use the word influencers a lot more in the early parts of my business journey. Um then it grew to like creators, which is a bit more, you know, like influencer has the, you know, oh, you're dancing on TikTok, this type of idea, but like a creator, more professionals would like call themselves that. But like even the word creator, like, you know, someone who is like a a conference organizer or something, um, they would not use the word creator for it, especially if it's like a B2B healthcare SaaS conference or something, something like crazy like that. Um, they wouldn't use the word creator. And so for sure, I've like even when we did our website redesign, it's something I'm constantly surprised by the people that is, you know, in my inbox or LinkedIn DMs or something. Uh case in point, there's like supply chain, supply chain, you know, like meetup, like but they, you know, like the interesting thing is that like those are some of the most lucrative sponsorships that you can get because of the fact that there's such a small supply of those of those types of people and they're just hungry, they're so hungry for support and advice, because it's just there's there's no support for them. And so um yeah, it's it's definitely evolved the way in which I I think about the book and its utility and the stages that I could access potentially to, like for in terms of speaking, and like, yeah, maybe it's not just the creator economy stages that I could speak on. It's like these other other, you know, more higher-level business events and you know things like that.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Have there been any that popped up since you wrote the book that you were invited to speak somewhere, either privately or publicly that you were like didn't have to be a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

100% especially podcasts, like I like like you know, stages for sure, but like I've definitely been uninvited on like some larger, more like business podcasts, rather than just like do the circuit of the creator podcast. Because there's definitely like a circuit, you know. And so that that's been interesting too. Like a lot of people, um like this is a random example, but like coaches. There's all sorts of different types of coaches out there fitness coaches, life coaches, health coaches, like you name it. There's like a huge industry for like, you know, coaching. Um, but a lot of coaches, if they have, if they have a uh a small roster of clients, you know, one to ten, you know, they're not influencers or content creators, um, but I have actually spoken with a lot of coaches and communities of coaches and things like that to help them understand that you you actually can get sponsored as a coach. You know, you could form alliances with whether it's local communities or or you know, local brands or businesses to say, hey, like I've got 10 clients who are like already paying for my services, and if I recommend that they you know uh patronize your store, they're gonna do it. And so like that's an example of like, you know, like the different like a coach would never think that they could get sponsored, but because of the book, they're now seeing like, oh, maybe this is for me.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

One of my biggest fascinations with what you've done is yeah, 10,000 copies is impressive. But what I think is super cool, and we've already touched on a few of these things, is the amount of different things that you've spun off from the book, whether it's products, um, you know, other services, merch, um, this event, I'd like to talk about the event for a minute or two. Um now, I know the event may or may not have been inspired directly by the book itself, but the event is basically essentially your book and IRL, and and this event that you've developed, sponsor games, is so different from any other event format in the the creator or business space, right? Um what impact, if any, did the book have on you? Because I knew you wanted to do an event for a while. Did putting a book out give you the confidence to say, okay, now I'm gonna do this other thing that I've been wanting to do that I wasn't sure. Like, tell me what, if any, correlation there is between the book being published and and some of the tailwind success you got from that to the event.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

I mean, there there was a hundred percent in my mind. I I always I always wanted to make an event like this. I actually came out with the book in January and then had the event in March. So like we were planning both like for many months prior to that, but it was 100% inspired by the book. Like you mentioned, like my eight step sponsorship wheel framework that you see right there, that is literally I translated that and we we learn and master and play those games and master those concepts in person. Uh uh, that's literally the format of the event. Uh and so it was 100% inspired. And and it's crazy, man. Like I I I I literally had a conversation with someone at the very first sponsor games who said, I read the book, but it didn't click for me until I came to this. Until I actually like practiced this stuff and talked with other people and like I'm leaving this really feeling like like I've mastered the concepts that you laid out in the book. And so it just it reminded me that like even if you put out a book, like these other formats of of learning and and instruction and teaching, um, sometimes it takes people like repetition and like you know, just actually doing the thing for it to finally click. And so like that that is what was so fulfilling to me because again, like it's at the end of the day, yes, yes, of course, this is a business, but I also feel uh my North Star is like I really want people to learn this stuff and I think it can change their life and their business. And so that's the other reason that I felt called to like do these all these different formats. And I just released a software program two weeks ago, which we could probably talk about, but like um heavily inspired by the book. And so um I think that I I just get so excited about all the different iterations of the of the concepts that I can that can dream up.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Yeah. That software. Did you want to ask something?

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Yeah, no, I want to ask about software.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Yeah, so I've I've seen a little bit of it. This is again, next thing spawn somewhat from the book. Like this idea that you have this piece of content, you know, what like like this book, and and now you've you've done all these other things as a result. Like some people struggle just to get the book out, let alone you know, take that and go, okay, not only am I not gonna fall victim to that average three-month cliff where everything just dies, and then I have to figure out something else. Um you've turned it into like 20 other things that are also uh highly, I think, valuable for the people that find them. Um also generates revenue for you. But you know, when you launched Sponsor Mole, I was or you I think you actually messaged me um and said something about you know launching some piece of software. And honestly, even though I love you to death, this might have been the first time where I was like, Justin's finally lost his shit. Like he's um but I probably said something like super cool, this is awesome. Um and then I got a chance to kind of get a peek at it. I don't think you you know that, but um crazy cool. Like talk us through like how did how did that come about?

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Uh you know, if if I if I look at my audience, it it very much is like a barbell, right? Like I've got uh the people at the the very far end who are like very sophisticated, doing lots of deals, making lots of money, and they need a lot of support. And that's the coaching program is great for them. But like on the other end here, which maybe it's not even a barbell, it's like the other 85% or 90% of my audience, they're kind of at the far end of the continuum, the earliest stages, right? They're they're growing, they're trying to figure out how to monetize, they're trying to figure out sponsorships. And so um other than the book, I do not really have any sort of like other products for them or other ways in which I can serve them. And so the top three questions I always get, even with the book being out almost two years, is how do I know who to reach out to at the brand? There's all these people on LinkedIn, all these titles, I don't know which one is the right person. Number two is what do I say to them? What do I say to them to actually get them to respond to me instead of all the other AI slop pitches that they're getting right now? Um and and then the third one is well, actually, I don't even know what brands would be interested in sponsoring me. Like I just have no idea. Um and so I sought out to create a software tool to solve those three problems, in addition to a lot of other things. Um and so I I actually forged a um partnership with Apollo.io, which is a sales intelligence platform. Yeah. And they have a lot of real like very robust um contact data in there. And so I'm an official data vendor basically, and I had to register legally in a bunch of states as a data vendor now. So I'm doing the whole thing. Um and so basically you can type in any brand now, and within three seconds, it'll pull up the decision maker. So I took their data and I layered on all this, all the my whole chapter around pitching, and I have a chart of like the different job titles, and I worked for months um to like massage the the search filtering criteria so that now it's just like within three seconds it'll pull it up. Um, it'll also the other another chapter is like the pitching angles, right? Like you can't just say I have this big platform and I got all these followers. Like the brand doesn't care. It's like, how can you help them accomplish a business outcome? And I have this whole, I lay it out in the book. Like you go and you do the research, you go look at their blog posts, you go look at their social media posts. It's like, oh, you ran that Black Friday deal in 2025. Are you gonna be running that again in 2026? I would love to help you spread the word about that. So, you know, that I did all this in the book, right? But it's a manual process, right? And so I said, okay, let me figure out is is there a way in which I can automate this? And so sure enough, now in 25 seconds, you can get eight different pitch angles of like what you could say to the brand. Um, and so I mean, there's uh and I literally just I'm so excited about this, you guys. Just today, I sent out uh invites to the MCP, which means now uh if you have you know ChatGPT or Claude, you can now utilize all the features of sponsor mole in your AI assistant. And so it's just like chat chatting normally. And so um again, it all comes back to this larger mission of like how can I make it easier for people to do these types of partnerships? And um I I I think actually this is another really important point here, which is that you know, well, number one, like this is actually my background. Like I went to school for computer science and programming and stuff, and so like I I know quite a bit enough to do that.

SPEAKER_03 49:52

I don't think I knew that.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Yeah, yeah. So I I built the entire thing myself. So um really? And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

What did you did you use something like base 44 or some sort of app builder? Like, what do you think you built it yourself?

SPEAKER_00 50:05

I use claud code. Okay. And and I uh but I mean there's all sorts of APIs and all sorts of you know security things, and I knew all that from like you know, my trip my um my background. Uh but yeah, I did I did this all myself over about a year.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

Um I don't know why, but for some reason, I've always had it stuck in my head that you went to college for something like drama or writing or like music.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Theater kid energy.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Yeah, he's got theater kid energy. Complimentary. Yes, complimentary. I'm sorry, yeah. Like super creative. Like I would have never guessed, like computer nerd.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Like that's I'm an engineer, man.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

Really cool.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Um but but again, I appreciate that. But again, it's like one of the reasons why I think it's done so well. I mean, it's only been out two weeks, but like um is like people trust me from the book.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

Like, like I built up so much goodwill um from frankly helping people get a bunch of brand deals from a $20 book that like they're like, well, I mean, Justin has helped me out so much, like I've of course I'm gonna try this thing out, right? So it's like you build up that's another downstream positive you know consequence of writing a great book, is like even if people are not 100% sure, well, like you, whether this is gonna be like legit or not, they're just like I trust Justin, and so let me give me give this a shot.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Yeah. So I've literally talked to people at Sponsor Games Um and probably at CEX as well, who have who have actually said, you know, from Justin's book, I've now netted, you know, 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 over the last three months, four months, whatever, in sponsorship deals. Um, this is just a side question. Just curious, like when you hear, when somebody comes to you and says, hey, I bought your book, I put this thing in this eight-step thing in it's eight steps, right? I I put this into play and I landed a $20,000 deal. Is there any part of you that's like, damn, and I sold them that book for $15? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I I know you, and I know you truly like helping people. And and but is there any part of you that's like, I should have priced this thing higher? Or, you know, is there any part of you that regrets some of what you've been working on here as more of an open source style to going about this?

SPEAKER_00 52:24

This is gonna sound so like like woo-woo. Um I truly believe it all comes back around. Um, like you put you you help people without expectation of anything in return, and the universe will reward you. And and I've been rewarded in so many ways in my life, not just professionally, but with my family and kids and peace and all that. Um, and so like I don't, I I legitimately can answer you that, yeah, okay, yeah, 20, 25%, especially for some of my larger clients. Yeah, that'd be pretty sweet to like get those, you know, commission checks, but like not really. I'm so excited for people to like, you know, change their life. And and uh a lot honestly, a big part of it also is that like my wife and I have been so blessed throughout our life and our our career that like it's I kind of look at it as almost like a passing of the baton. Like it's you know, it's your your turn now to like you know have these awesome things happen to you. And like the fact that I've been able to create a kind of a cool business uh on the back end that is just so much more aligned. Like that's the other thing is that like the a the representation, the broker model, you know, my hot take on this. It just like I just feel like it's like such a bad deal for for for creators. Like you can do this yourself and keep it all. You could you can have your cake and eat it too. And so, like the fact that we are able to support people and and and help them feel like we're truly advocates for them and objective, like, hey, you shouldn't take that deal. It's a really bad deal. Because I'm not motivated by the cut, I think is a that just makes it worth it to me. Yeah, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

One of the things that you said, Justin, in the last interview that we did that has just stuck with me since then was when you were talking about the why behind the book. And I just I so vividly remember it that you said this book was your legacy and and that was your goal with this. And I really loved that answer, and so don't disappoint me right now. Um but do you do you still feel that way? Is this still something that that this is your legacy and this is everything that comes with it now continues to be a part of that?

SPEAKER_00 54:28

Absolutely, 100%. And and it also um it has made writing another book actually a little scary. Um we were gonna get to that, but let's go ahead and let's jump into that. Well, uh number one, yes, of course. Like I feel so um it is, let's just be honest, like it's such a cool feeling when I like walk into a room and like you know, I went to this uh you guys know Lex Roman, so I went to her mixer uh yesterday or two days ago. And I was I just you know, you get put into these like breakout rooms and you're like meeting new people, and like I got put into some room and like I didn't know any of these people, and like three out of the six people were like, Oh my god, I've read your book. I'm like, this is so cool. This is just this is so cool, right? And it and it's not even an ego thing, it's more just like I just am so tickled that the book has found its way into all these pockets of communities that like I don't know who these people are, right? And so from a legacy, like a YouTube video, a podcast, you know, like a newsletter I've written, I'll never feel like, oh yeah, that's part of my legacy, right? Like no, like no, like writing, like there's something uh like about writing a book that's like it's like hollowed. You know, it's like it's like an it's it's something that I just don't even with AI, like I don't think that there's anything that's gonna be ever displaced that as the the true most respected format of like um this is everything I know. And if I if if if everyone knows this me to have written this book for the from now until the end of time, like I'll feel super happy.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

Like I think there's an element of permanence with a book, uh especially a printed book, I should say. Um because I don't deal in electronic books like some people. Um but you know, it used to be the old saying was like don't put it on the internet because it'll be there forever, right? I guess maybe my parents said that. I don't know about anybody else's, but um now it's kind of the opposite because we have zero control over these channels that we're putting content on. You it's not guaranteed to be there forever. Your legacy can't be your YouTube channel or a YouTube video or you know, things that you're putting on LinkedIn or whatever that might be, because you have zero control over when that channel decides it's gonna be something different, it's gonna cease to exist, um, your account is gonna cease to exist because of their rules or something else. And I feel like in a digital age, the best way to establish a legacy, some permanence is something tactile, something that lives on a bookshelf, in somebody's office, you know, in their living room, you know, in their hands, like visible, physical, you know, vinyl records, for example, right? Like I don't know what happened to the 500 CDs I used to own. They're gone. I probably sold them so I could go buy Mountain Dew or something. Like, but I still have tons of records and I still buy records, and so do my kids now. And so I I feel like a book is something a lot more tangible as a as a legacy, as there's some permanence there.

SPEAKER_00 57:38

I well, I actually I have one I have one very physical tactical thing to show you about legacy. Hold on a second, let me grab it.

SPEAKER_02 57:47

I'm very scared, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

Oh, I can't wait. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 57:52

Luckily, we're not in the same room.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

All right. So so I am going to an in-person event next week. Okay. And I decided to have these shirts printed up. Ready? Yes. So for those of you just listening and not watching, the shirt says, I wrote this with a picture of my book. Talk to me.

SPEAKER_02 58:19

And it's bright red, by the way. Like you're not gonna miss this shirt if you're at whatever event, Justin's.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Very eye-catching.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

So it's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

I kind of won't be.

SPEAKER_02 58:33

I'm already uncomfortable. Like, I'm that type of person. Like, that would draw so much attention that I would just be like, oh my god. But that's perfect for Justin. I don't, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

Justin, I hear you gotta send Matt one of those shirts immediately.

SPEAKER_00 58:47

I think so. I think that's a great, that's a great idea. I published this, talk to me.

SPEAKER_02 58:53

Um real quick, I think this is important to people listening. I think all this is important to people listening, but specifically, your book launch, the strategy. I know because we were somewhat intro uh uh um integral to that, or or involved in that, I should say. Sorry. Um, you know, you launched first direct, selling direct, printing copies, right? And if I'm not mistaken, we we pitched you on, and I think you did a sort of a staggered approach to market, which is where somebody launches, and the way we tell them is launch direct, they gotta buy it from you first, you know, printed copies, do as much as you can that way, build your email list, build your you know, your your customer data profile. Um, and then when you feel like it's starting to trickle or you're getting enough people bugging you about putting it on you know Amazon or one of those other crappy third-party retailers, then go ahead and release the the cheap seats, right? Go ahead and put the ebook out there and go wide, throw it on on Ingram, throw it on Amazon, you know, a couple other places, whatever that might be, and then continue on. Then you did the audiobook, right? And so you know you're staggering the release, you're staggering the formats, you're hitting all of the different audiences in the way they like to purchase, the way they like to read. Do you feel like your launch strategy and the the subsequent, let's say, six to twelve months from there, as you kept rolling out different formats or updated version thing, do you feel like that was the successful way to do it? Or if you could go back and change your launch strategy, would you and how I mean I think it was pretty sweet.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

I honestly I I I again like I don't have any sort of baseline to compare it against. Um the fact that I've sold 10,000 copies of the book um just still feels kind of surreal. And so I'm not had I done it a different way, I don't know if that would have been I mean, uh look, I I think about it in terms of like these are every time you release a new place to buy it, a new format, this is a marketable event. And so I feel like the staggered approach is the best approach because if if you just go wide with everything, every format all at once, then you you lose the ability to just like talk about your talk about your book again. Yeah, just you got that cliff that you mentioned. So I actually think like if you can uh stomach you know this more protracted uh rollout, uh it's just gonna be uh easier to talk about. Like you won't feel as salesy. It's like, oh no, I like legitimately I have a reason to talk about this again because it's now available on you know audiobook or whatever. And so I do think if there's any like authors, you know, um listening to this and trying to consider their strategy, um, I do think this kind of playbook of a staggered approach is is sound.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

I would watch some of the comments and things and because I couldn't help myself. There were times where during your initial release, you would get bugged by people publicly, like, when are you gonna put it on Amazon? When's the ebook available? Um is there any other way to buy it other than from you? Like how did how did those comments make you feel? What did you think when you would read comments like that?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

I just thought they were licking Cheeto dust off their fingers, you know? And I just said, like, be patient, be patient, young Padawan. Honestly, you know, I think that the value of getting uh a direct connection with my readers was enough. Was enough to just be like, no, buy it from my website. Like go through the friction of like entering your info on this on directly on my website. Um and just that again, knowing the one of the uh purposes of the book long term was like, you know, potentially marketing my other services down the line. Like I I wanted those, those, that that connection. Um, and so the it also helps, I gotta be like totally real, that like I kind of feel like I published a first of its kind book for this for my space. Like there have been some books that have talked about it, but no book squarely about this topic. So people were so hungry for the knowledge that they were willing to go through a bit of friction to get their hands on it. And so I was able to be confident and be like, no, buy it from my site, like sorry. You know, and so I think I think that that's also another thing is like topic selection is is important, you know, obviously for nonfiction, but even for for fiction. Like I think that there's like a there is something to be said about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

What's your fiction category of choice when you read?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:28

Sci-fi, 100%. Oh yeah. I mean, my my Mount Rushmore I'll tell you, when I listened to the uh the audiobook of Project Hail Mary, I cried at the end.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:42

I just got that. I it's on my uh high up on my T VR. But so uh no more books in the immediate future?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

Well, I bought a URL for the title of the second book, uh, but I'm not gonna disclose it. I don't think I have to. It is a the number one piece of feedback that I've gotten from people who are outside of the creator economy who have read the book, yeah, have said that the book is much more broadly applicable than to just sponsorships. Um, that it really touches on just the core of sales, sure, of sales relationships uh and what it takes to actually be successful selling anything. Um and so I've really given some thought to like what a book that is basically one or two concentric circles out from this subject of sponsorships. Um but haven't committed to writing it yet. It's actually kind of weird. This is maybe a little philosophical, maybe a good good uh bookend to the podcast. It's like, you know, I'm also thinking about where I'm at in my own life milestone. Like, you know, my kids are nine and twelve, and I love hanging out with them. Like I also don't want to travel as much because I want to be home and be hanging out with them, and I just I have I've really slowed down on the travel because of that. And I feel like I have this window where they like still want to hang out with me and my wife before they want to hang out with their friends, you know. It's closing soon for the 12. I know, I know, I know, believe me, I know. Um and so, you know, I'm gonna blink in nine years and we're gonna be empty and esters. And so, like, what is my life and what is my work and what what is what will that look like, you know? And and so I love speaking, I love traveling, but like if my kids are not there, like maybe like it might be cool to have like a new book in hand right around that time, and I kind of go back out and we trav I travel the world with my wife, and like so it's almost like this weird kind of intentional life design thing that like maybe I write a second book to coincide with this next life chapter. Um, I'm not trying to be too calculated with my life in that way, but like I don't know, it's it's definitely something I'm thinking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

Yeah, I feel that. I'm at that point too where my last They're 16, they're twins. I got a couple more years before you know they're off to college or whatever, but they're already kind of hitting that window where it's not cool to hang out with me anymore. So, but a lot of the stuff I do now is with that in mind. Like, how can I maximize my time with them while not neglecting certain things, but then also thinking much further into the future than I ever thought I would or cared to just because of those things. So I completely understand that. That's yeah. Um I I'm gonna go out on a limb and make a pretty solid bet here that it's not gonna take you eight or nine years to put that book out, though. I can move along.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:40

Yeah, well, I guess we're gonna I I guess I got the URL. I got a pretty sick URL. I'm just gonna say that for the title of the book.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:47

That alone is gonna motivate you to start publicly at some point, maybe, maybe another year or two from now. But I I don't think you're gonna wait that long. So we'll wrap this up, but I want to give you an opportunity to just quickly tell people about your event, where it is, how they can sign up for it, at least check it out, because I think a lot of our in our listeners can can not only benefit from it, but you know, in general, we've been to the couple of them now. We always sponsor them, we always have a good time, even when they were in San Antonio, which they won't be next year, thankfully. So, you know, tell them about your event and anything else you want to leave them with before we sign off.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

Well, had you not like mandated that I tell them about the event, what I really would have done at the end of this was say, hey, you got to go to sponsormagnet.com. That's the only call to action I'm gonna give you as advice. You shouldn't give multiple calls to action because then people will do nothing. And so if you want to really make people get your book, only say that URL. Don't give them social handles. No, just the book URL. Another good thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:47

That's fine. You can leave it at that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

No, I uh uh the uh I mean you guys have just been such an amazing partner of sponsor games for the last couple years, and um it is a an in-person event to help you become uh more competent in uh when it comes to brand partnerships, you know, learn how to pitch, learn how to be a better negotiator. We actually do like role play, you get your roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty, you get to you know uh network with and connect with other creators who are also along that same path. And it's a competition, so there's a cash prize. Uh there's got a grand prize winner who wins five grand at the at the end of it. So, and something that we did last year, which you guys were awesome to participate in. We actually gave away some brand deals uh uh this year at Sponsor Games as well. And so that that's become a really cool component of it. So yeah, sponsor games.com would love to see uh all of you there. And I mean, hopefully Lulu will be presenting sponsor again. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:39

Who knows?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:40

Listen to him. As if he doesn't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:43

Come on. I don't it's it's so hard for me to say no to Justin now, and he knows that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:49

But I like that he goes through the emotions of asking every time.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:53

You know what? As a matter of fact, Justin, everybody on my team should probably come take some lessons from you about how to get what they want from me.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:00

Actually, yeah, could you uh write a book on that? Or or at least do like a longer course for the yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:09

What would the URL be for that?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:11

After we end this podcast, I'll tell you the title of the book because it's related to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:16

He's already got a title. I told you. Nine years, no way, dude. He's got a URL and a title. This book's coming out in a couple years tops. But all right. Listen to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:26

I was gonna say nine months, but okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:28

It's been amazing to have you on with us uh live and in person, especially as our first external guest outside of Lulu. Uh 10,000 books is insane. So again, congratulations. Uh, it's clear from this conversation and just watching you grow your book. Like you've definitely either had really good strategy or stumbled into some really good things, or really good combination of both, I think it is, to be honest with you. And uh I think there's a lot of people coming in for this episode. So we really appreciate you being here with us. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:02

It means a ton, and I I feel honored to have been the first guest, and I I truly legitimately say that I could I could not have done with without um the partnership with y'all, and so I'm I'm eternally grateful.

unknown 1:10:12

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:12

All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

Yeah, thank you so much. Really, there was nobody else that could have been our first guest. So thank you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:21

Appreciate it. All right, everybody do all the things. Like, subscribe, leave a review, send hate mail to Lauren at podcastalulu.com.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:29

And then go check out Justin's book.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

SponsorMagnet.com. Don't go anywhere else. Just sponsor magnet.com. And then you can find all the things there.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:38

Well, actually, actually, I'm gonna do a plug for you since you guys didn't do it. Uh, we have a case study that we did together. That's all you should read it. Yeah, uh, so put it go check out the show notes uh or the description because uh I think it's actually very good. It's uh it's very helpful. Like I sat and we did this whole thing, we talked about how I use the API and all that, and so I definitely would recommend checking that out.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:57

Yeah, I will have that linked in the show notes. So thanks for the plug.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:01

Awesome. Well, thanks again, Justin.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:03

And thanks for listening, everyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:04

We'll see you soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:06

Publish and Prosper is brought to you by Lulu.com. To learn more, visit Publish Prosper Podcast.com. For more episodes like this one, be sure to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for tuning in.