Lauren: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Publish & Prosper. And today I am so excited to be joined by Paul. Paul Hobday, our... Senior Content Marketing Manager?

Paul: I don't know dude.

Lauren: Who knows?

Paul: Something like that.

Lauren: Welcome back.

Paul: Thank you, thank you.

Lauren: This is your third time here, I think?

Paul: I think so? That sounds right.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: It's – you've been doing this podcast for so long, it just feels like it's always been happening.

Lauren: It kind of does. It kind of does. It all blurs together. And yet it also feels like I've been doing it for about three weeks.

Paul: Eh. Keeps it fresh.

Lauren: Yeah. You know, why not?

Paul: I love it.

Lauren: But, Paul's last two episodes with us were both writing and content focused. So we're taking a completely different angle this time around.

Paul: I enjoy that. Let's talk about something different.

[1:11] – Episode Topic Intro

Lauren: Today we're going to talk about accessibility when it comes to books. Whether that is print books, ebooks, audiobooks, different formats within those formats, and even some additional things like what kind of content you can include within your books, or different ways that you can present that content to people.

Paul: Yeah, it's a very... not oft talked about topic, but very important when it comes to publishing and content distribution.

Lauren: It's something that we're seeing a lot more and more of lately, not just in the publishing industry, but in general. I think a lot more is being put into place as like pretty standard accessibility practices. And I mean, accessibility kind of as a broader umbrella term than what it often gets used as.

Paul: Yes, right.

Lauren: Which I'm not disagreeing with that usage of at all, but just for the purpose of this episode, I think when people hear accessibility, they think a lot about like, oh, you know, books that are written in Braille for the vision impaired. Or audiobooks for... also the vision impaired. Or, you know like, things that are accessible in that way. And we mean it a little bit broader.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: Including those things, but also just, you know, kind of covering anything that you can do to make your books available and accessible to as many different people as possible.

Paul: Yes. I think there's a difference between wanting to write a book and hold that book up and be able to say that's my name on the cover, I did this thing. Look at what I did, Mom. Like, I'm living my dream. Can I borrow $500? And wanting to get your content in front of as many consumers as possible.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: That's a big difference. And if your goal is to get your content – by which I mean your book, your, your whatever you've created – in front of the broadest audience, you have to make it accessible to the broadest audience.

Lauren: Yes. I just I think it would be such a waste of your content, your knowledge, your expertise, your experience, your efforts, if you did all the work of putting out really good material and marketing it and getting it in front of somebody and getting their attention and having them say yes, oh my god, this is absolutely exactly what I was looking for. Oh but it's, it's not in a format that I can consume it in. So I guess this is not for me.

Paul: Yes, exactly. And I mean there's a lot of people out there interested in consuming content.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: As you know, you and Matt have talked about this a ton, but like, one of the best ways for any content creator of any format, books, video, podcasts, anything, to earn an audience is to find their niche. And when you get into your niche, you don't want to then exclude a portion of those people because they have vision impairments and they need larger print, or something like that. Or you know, Matt’s an adamant print book only person. Well, if you released your book in ebook only and it's about the best way to do Disney tattoos, he's never going to read it. But you know he wants to.

Lauren: Yep.

Paul: But he's never going to, because it's not in a format that he will read.

Lauren: Yes. Yeah. This is kind of the reverse of... recently in the case study that you did with Justin Moore, Justin actually talked about this with his content channels in general. He started doing YouTube videos. And then readers or his, his viewers asked for longer form content. And then there were people that wanted... I don't like listening or watching, I like reading. Can I have –

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: – blog posts? Can I have emails? And it was answering the demand of people like consuming media in different ways.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: And this is, I would say, very similar to that. Whether it’s in reverse, where you’re starting with the book and then introducing different formats, or just in general. Like, this is still another way for you to say hey, I have these ideas, this like, story that I want to tell, or this education and experience that I want to share with people, and I want to make it available however I can.

Paul: Yeah, absolutely.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: Like it's – Justin's a great example because he really saw that people wanted that and then gave them what they wanted. Which, smart guy.

Lauren: He is very smart.

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: We’ll take all his advice.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: Always. So we're going to talk a little bit about the idea just in general of multi-format publishing. So publishing some or all three of the print book, ebook, audiobook. Some different types of formats within those. So, large print editions and other kinds of accessible print editions that you can do.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: Ebooks and audiobooks, which may or may not be why Paul is here with me today instead of Matt. And then some other kind of supplemental content ideas there too. Because I think – not to, not to give it too much of a way at the beginning, but I do think that under that larger umbrella of accessibility is also understanding that some readers just need a little extra help with –

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: – your content.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: Alright.

Lauren: Ready to go?

Paul: Let's talk about it.

Lauren: Okay.

Paul: I’ve been ready. As soon as I heard I could talk about ebooks, I was like, let's go.

Lauren: I added a section on ebooks just for Paul. That's not true. We were definitely going to have to do them. But we all know that Matt would have been a lot more recalcitrant –

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: – with that topic.

Paul: He very much would have.

Lauren: And, and Paul is a fellow ebook reader. So.

Paul: I am. I am. I'm – advocate, even.

Lauren: Yes, I would agree. But we'll get there.

Paul: We'll get there.

Lauren: We'll get there.

[7:06] – How Accessibility Helps Authors

Lauren: We've covered some of this already. But I do just kind of want to emphasize why accessibility really, really matters. It can be great for authors. Obviously this is not just something that's going to benefit your readership. Of course it will benefit your readership. But for authors, for that discoverability, there are a lot of situations where having your content include accessibility features will help it rank better for search results. Step away from books for a minute. It is considered best practice for videos to have transcripts –

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: – included in them now. Which is an accessibility feature. That is something that is designed to help people with any kind of audio impairment, or learning disability, or in some way shape or form are unable to just sit and listen or watch the video. Transcripts are becoming standard practice to include. And that – while that started as an accessibility feature, it is becoming more and more common as just like, this is something that should be included all the time.

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: This is something that should be, like, a standard, a standard practice, a standard part of this. And that helps your discoverability.

Paul: Yeah you’re, you're really kind of checking two boxes there at once.

Lauren: It's also great for authors for giving them a little bit of a competitive advantage. Especially over other indie authors, because not all indie authors would think about doing some of these things. So, you know, we'll talk a little bit more about this when we get there, but libraries love large print –

Paul: They do.

Lauren: – editions.

Paul: They do.

Lauren: And if a library is on the fence about whether or not they want to add your book to their catalog, and then you're able to throw down the oh by the way, I have a large print edition of it. That might be the thing that tips them over into yes –

Paul: Sure.

Lauren: – we will, we will stock that.

Paul: Yeah, it is really important for libraries to have access to those large prints, especially if your demographic and your readers fit into that slightly older audience that might want the larger print.

Lauren: Yes. For sure. And it can also be a great benefit for you for just kind of reaffirming reader loyalty.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: I think that that's something that... You know, for any, any reader that does need a specific format, or a little bit of like, extra help with accessibility one way or another. Any time that somebody is going to make that extra effort, take that extra step to think of them, I think that you're automatically generating, like, a little boost in, in goodwill there.

Paul: Yep. The words you used in the outline was implicit goodwill. And I really like that.

Lauren: Wow.

Paul: Because it's, it's both that, because you're then yeah, you're showing that this book is available to anyone who might want to read it, because you've covered your bases on accessibility. But there's also a side of like, just professionalism. Like, if you go to buy a t-shirt and they've only, the only size options are medium, large, and extra large. And they don't even offer – it's not like they're sold out, they're just not there... That's pretty unprofessional. You're not covering your bases for availability. You're not making your product accessible to a wider audience. Likewise for a book, if I go to a book's product page from an author, you know, a new author that I've discovered and I'm like, oh, I want to give this person a try. I’m gonna go to their website, I'm gonna look at their product page, and they only offer ebooks. I might – I mean, I don't care, but you know, Matt wouldn't buy that.

Lauren: Yup.

Paul: And there are a lot of people out there like him that are pretty devoted to print books or only enjoy reading on print, and you're just kind of losing them. Whereas if you go to an author's product page and they've got a hardcover, paperback, ebook, and maybe even audiobook available, that shows that they understand the market and they're out there offering all of the formats that are, you know, widely accepted for books.

Lauren: It's professionalism and effort that is implying, like, this is not a whim for me.

Paul: Right.

Lauren: This is not something that I'm just doing for the funsies of it. Like, I'm doing it – this is something that I really believe in. I want to do it right. I want to do a good job with it.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: And that is implicit goodwill but also implicit authority.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: I think?

Paul: Yes. I think most people listening to this might hear me say things like, you know, it shows professionalism and be like, oh yeah, it does. You know, you don't really think about it. It's so under the surface. But people will notice if you don't do it.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: It's just one of those things that's so expected and normalized that you should be doing it.

Lauren: Yeah. It's a great way for you to demonstrate your core values and core principles as a brand.

Paul: Yeah, for sure.

Lauren: And I think that that's... that means a lot. We know, because we've seen this from survey results that have been published over the last few years, that more and more consumers are conscientious consumers with how they choose to spend their money. Especially with limited disposable income, which is also something we're going to talk about as being under the umbrella of accessibility.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: People are being a little bit more intentional with who they spend their money with.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: Not just how they spend it, but who they spend it with.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: And just the fact that you've thought to include a large print edition in your book, or you thought to include a slightly lower price point version that is in black and white –

Paul: Yup.

Lauren: – instead of full color. Like that – that, to me, tells me more about you than whatever blog post you wrote about the importance of inclusivity in publishing.

Paul: I feel called out. No, just kidding. I think you wrote that blog post –

Lauren: I'm actually pretty sure I was – I was gonna say, I wrote that one.

Paul: Called yourself out.

Lauren: Yep.

[12:56] – How Accessibility Helps Readers

Paul: Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to your point about cost a little bit, because I think that's actually a big one. To kind of feel out a new author, it's really nice to be able to get in for under $10 and try a book. Especially if it's a popular one that you can't get a library because they're, you know, they're all checked out. I think that's really important. And that's a different kind of accessibility. It's like market accessibility, but it's very important. So yeah I don't know I think that's – thinking about the price point as an accessibility factor is something I think is maybe not as common as it should be.

Lauren: I think so too. And I think that that's a mistake.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: Honestly. And like accessibility in multiple different ways. Because yes, I agree there are absolutely... I think pretty much anything under $5, that to me is like – I don't drink coffee. So it's –

Paul: Yeah. But, yeah –

Lauren: It’s the price of a Monster, basically.

Paul: Yep, sure.

Lauren: Anything that's going to cost me less than the price of a beer, I'm willing to be like, yeah sure, I will give – I will roll the dice on that.

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: You know, give it a shot.

Paul: And, you know, as an author, your margins are going to be worse on a cheap ebook. But it's, it's like a access point.

Lauren: Right.

Paul: To get people into your reading ecosystem and actually be part of what you're creating.

Lauren: Right. But I also think that just, you know, I don't want to discount a lot of readers that are... readers with lower incomes.

Paul: Sure.

Lauren: Or limited budgets, or in the year we are in right now, a lot of people are really cutting back on spending for fun.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: And entertainment. But also need it more than ever.

Paul: Right.

Lauren: And are looking for ways to say, hey like, maybe I will spend a maximum of $20 on books per month, and that's either five ebooks or one paperback.

Paul: Right.

Lauren: You know? I also think from a reader perspective think about how people are consuming content in general. There are plenty of times where I'm at home working on something, cleaning the kitchen, and I'm like, I want, I want an audiobook. And there's nothing really top of mind right now. And I will just kind of scroll through Libby or scroll through Audible, and I will look for something that is included.

Paul: Yup.

Lauren: That is available now.

Paul: Yup.

Lauren: And has good reviews. And I'll roll the dice on... if something comes up, I could have never heard of that book, never heard of that author, whatever. But if it's there and it's available, that might become my next favorite author.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, right, it's it's tough because books are kind of a commitment of time to read. And so I think we often get entrenched in just reading the ones we like. The authors we like. And finding new ones can be tricky, but making it easily and readily accessible is a way to be discovered.

Lauren: Yes.

Paul: I do the same thing. And this is actually, how many audiobooks do you think I've listened to this year?

Lauren: More than I would have guessed, based on the way you said that. How many audiobooks have you listened to this year?

Paul: I'm halfway through, maybe like a third of the way through, my sixth one.

Lauren: Oh my goodness.

Paul: Yeah. I've been trying to train myself. I put them on when I go do housework or when I'm walking in the afternoon. And yeah, I've actually – I can't say I like it, but I'm teaching myself to accept it as a format that I can... because I don't read as much as I used to.

Lauren: Yup.

Paul: It's hard to find time. I mean, it's like somebody (Matt) is keeping me really busy a lot of the time. And so it's, it's harder to find time to, to read. But that circumvents some of that problem by having it available in different formats.

Lauren: Yes.

Paul: It's a really nice point to segue to the other big benefit of this, which is disabled people or reading impairments or any sort of impairment that might make it hard for you to read or absorb content in a specific format. You know if, if you're hearing impaired, you obviously can't do an audiobook, so you're going to have to read. If you're vision impaired, then you might prefer an audiobook or Braille version or a large print. You might have, you know, some motor control issues where turning pages is hard and swiping isn't. You might not be tech literate and prefer to read paperback because you don't want to learn how to use an iPad. You know, there's all kinds of factors that might limit someone, and just having things available in those kind of main formats alleviates most of those problems.

Lauren: I think even a lot of some of the built in features in ereaders that you might not even think about. Like for people with learning disability or another kind of neurodivergent diagnosis, or even people that are multilingual and are trying to –

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: – learn a new language and trying to read in their non-native language. If you have the ebook feature where you can click on a word and it'll define that word for you...

Paul: I love that.

Lauren: That's very helpful.

Paul: Yeah. I use that a lot, actually.

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and that's... I think a lot of those features get really undervalued for what they provide and how they make books and reading more accessible to people.

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: This is kind of becoming an industry-wide expectation both in publishing and in other industries as well.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: And, and you know, like I said earlier, we're seeing more and more situations where every day accessibility features are being actively used and relied on. And I think it's just becoming more the default, which is a great thing.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: It should be. It should be, absolutely, the standard.

Paul: And to, to touch on the European Accessibility Act really quickly. It is a mandate by the EU that products sold within the EU be accessible, based on some standards they've developed and are continuing to develop. And because a lot of companies like Lulu that sell products internationally, we have to maintain that standard across the board. So not just products for the EU, because obviously we can't break up our products and have two different groups. It creates a standard that will continue to raise, get raised, to ensure that people can access this stuff. And I mean, it should, it’s one of those that, you know, we should be able to sit back and be like, well, we shouldn't have to mandate this. People should just be making stuff accessible. But if it wasn't happening, and we want to make sure we codify that, this is what that law is doing. And that's kind of an important thing. Even though I'm, you know, I rolled my eyes because I was frustrated about the work we had to do to get there, but it is worthwhile work.

Lauren: Yes. Yeah. And I will include some content in the show notes that talks a little bit more about that if you want to learn more about that specifically. But I don't, I don't want to open that can of worms.

Paul: No, no.

Lauren: But just do want to point out that it is one of the many ways that accessible formats, for not just books, but all different types of media –

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: – are becoming the industry expectation.

Paul: Yep.

[19:34] – The Value of Multi-Format Publishing

Lauren: Which I think is actually a great segue for us to kind of get into a little bit more specifics with like, the multi-format publishing. We're not saying disregard all 120 something episodes that came before this one, publish ebooks, don't do print. Absolutely not. Don't, don't do that.

Paul: No, I'm not saying that.

Lauren: No no.

Paul: I thought about it for a second, but.

Lauren: No, you would never.

Paul: Yeah yeah yeah, no no. Never.

Lauren: You do like having a job.

Paul: I do. I do.

Lauren: So.

Paul: It's nice. Food is good. I have shoes. Like, it's great.

Lauren: Nice to be able to afford all the books that you buy.

Paul: It's true.

Lauren: So definitely we're not saying don't, don't publish print. We are in fact saying publish as many different formats –

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: – as you can reasonably –

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: – bring yourself to do.

Paul: You alluded to this earlier. Like, if you have a book that's got color graphics, you might offer a black and white version. You know, it's very standard in traditional publishing to, to lead with that hardcover for what, like six or eight months?

Lauren: I think the standard is a year.

Paul: Sure. And then the paperback comes out.

Lauren: And then that’ll – Yeah.

Paul: You don't have to do it that way anymore. You can just offer them all at once. But you know, that's that's an important thing is to to give everybody that format availability that they want.

Lauren: Yes. And I want to emphasize that, to be clear, when we're talking about print book, ebook, audiobook, included in that is different versions of print books. Hardcover versus paperback. There are some people that I know that will only buy and read hardcovers. Because they prefer that, because they're, they're sturdier, they're easier for them to hold. And whether that's an esthetic thing, a physical functionality thing, a price point thing...

Paul: Kind of doesn't matter.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: Just whatever reason they might have if you don't make it available for them in the format they want, you're potentially losing that reader.

Lauren: Yep.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: Thank you so much for not letting that sentence trail off into, into the abyss.

Paul: I got you. I'm actually, I am a big proponent of paperbacks. I don't actually have a good reason for not being a fan of hardcovers, I kind of just don't like the feel of holding them as much as a paperback.

Lauren: I aesthetically like hardcovers.

Paul: Yes. For sure.

Lauren: But absolutely prefer the ease of reading paperbacks.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: And obviously the, the price difference between them is –

Paul: Sure.

Lauren: – is very real. Very, very real. I was thinking about this while I was working on this outline. One of the first ebooks that I ever bought was It.

Paul: Sure.

Lauren: Because I was reading it on the train when I was working in the city, and I was reading it on my commute to and from New York. That book is a thousand pages.

Paul: It’s massive.

Lauren: The paperback – and I started out with, with the best intentions. And I think I made it like three days –

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: – before I was like this is, like, I literally have to bring an extra bag to fit just this book in it. And I switched to the ebook. But, you know, there are different reader behaviors that I think that the more you make it accessible in different formats, the more you're going to appeal to those readers.

Paul: Yeah I mean, I, I like reading fantasy. I read a fair – like, probably half the books I read every year are fantasy books, and those tend to get pretty long. And so I don't really read them in print. Mostly because it's not super comfortable for me to hold up a paperback or a hardcover that's a thousand pages. Whereas, you know, my Kindle is a quarter inch thick. And it's consistently a quarter inch thick. You know, I just think that's a, that's a factor. And I, you know, for me, I don't think it would stop me if Kindle didn't exist, there was no such thing as ereaders. I would read those books still. But there might be some people that that's a really big deal for.

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair. I also think it's, it's... not just reader behavior to think about in terms of how people read, but also how people are reading and processing what they're reading. So I think that that is, that is something – and this is where the accessibility thing comes in for a lot of neurodivergent readers, or a lot of people that are just different types of learners. You know we, we see this in different studies and different presentations of like, psychology and how the brain works and how people absorb information. Some people are listeners, some people are watchers. Some people need to do the thing. You can, you can tell it to them until you're blue in the face, but until they do it themselves, they won't fully absorb whatever it is.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: I've seen people – I was watching, my, my dad's not a big reader at all. My dad, if my dad reads one book a year, I'm like wow, it's big year for you, huh?

Paul: Wow.

Lauren: And he was reading a book a couple of years ago. Nonfiction. And I, I walked into the, into his kitchen and he was sitting at the kitchen table. He had a print copy of the book in front of him, with a highlighter and a notepad next to it. And was listening to the audiobook and was following along.

Paul: I like that.

Lauren: And I – and, and yes. And like, absolutely. That might sound like overkill, but for him that was the best way for him to process and really absorb this information. And I was like, this is great. I'm so, I'm so glad for you that you have these, like, these different features and functions available to you.

Paul: Yeah. I mean that sounds a lot like putting closed captions on a TV show too. You can hear them talking, but you can also read it.

Lauren: Yep.

Paul: And kind of follow along and... So yeah, whatever, whatever is the best way for you to absorb the information you're gonna want to lean into. And as a creator offering your books, you're going to want to pander to that.

Lauren: Yes. Think about your target audience. Not, not just in terms of the demographics of your audience like are they skewing older, so they might need X, Y, Z format. Or are, like, are you writing a guide for like, the ADHD Guide to Establishing a Weekly Routine? Like – I mean, hopefully if you're doing that you understand the importance of presenting your content in, in multiple different ways. If you're not, you probably shouldn't be writing that book. But, you know, I think that not just understanding that demographic breakdown of your audience, but understanding what your goal is for how they're going to use your book. And if your goal is I'm trying to teach them a new way to do things. Or I'm trying to teach them, like, this is a personal growth guide, or a how to be a better writer, or something like that... Is it interactive?

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: Can you make your book interactive in a way that people can write directly in the book? I am not somebody who believes in the sanctity of books. I think you should – if you own the book, I don't care what you do. Write all over it. Highlight it, dog-ear it, doodle in the margins, whatever you have to. I don't care. Because –

Paul: Don't dog-ear it.

Lauren: Well. If it's your book.

Paul: Nope, still don't dog-ear it.

Lauren: Fine. I personally –

Paul: But anyway, yes – yeah, I – Yeah.

Lauren: No, I personally cannot stand dog eared pages. That's why they make tabs.

Paul: Right.

Lauren: It's... Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, I – no, I agree with you. I think, you know. Mark it up. Highlight. Tabs. Dog-ear it if you have to. Like, that's the whole point, is to –

Lauren: Yes.

Paul: Again I, I think I... at the beginning I was saying, you know, it's different between I've written a book to have written a book, versus I've written a book to share information. And if your goal is the latter, which it really, really should be, you got to make it available and accessible in the ways that people want it and actively absorb it.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: And if that means that they need to be able to highlight the book, then you have to be able to offer a print edition. You know, I mean, I guess you could highlight in ebooks, but it's not very useful. Yeah. And it's not very helpful. Like. So I agree with you.

Lauren: Yeah. And that is, that is a like, confirmed, known learning style, is some people learn by, by writing. So, you know, even literally just rewriting the sentence that I just read, rewriting it in my own words or in the exact same words verbatim.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: Some people, the muscle memory of writing it out helps them –

Paul: Oh yeah, no I’m –

Lauren: – stick it in their brain better.

Paul: I'm the same way.

Lauren: And, and, and I think that that's... If that's your goal for this type of content, then you should be doing this.

Paul: Especially if it's nonfiction or educational or something, like it's not just a story.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. You have to be able to make it available to people in the way that they most easily will absorb it.

Lauren: Yes. I also do kind of want to point out, like we were saying, with, with different types of book formats. Sometimes you can think of them as in, like, repurposing your content. So again, for maybe neurodivergent readers, maybe you have readers that are... the idea of reading a 300 word – 300 word – 300 page like, full book of educational material is just so daunting that they're not going to process any of it. But maybe you can publish that version of it for the people that want it, and then publish five volumes –

Paul: Sure.

Lauren: – that are much more small – like, much more smaller. Much, much smaller, more digestible versions of that content that is just breaking it down into segments. And that is literally you just took the, the same exact book, made two different versions of it, or six technically, different versions of it. You've got different product types available on your website now, you're repurposing existing content, and you've made it more accessible to different types of learners and different types of readers.

Paul: Yeah, I've never actually thought about that before, but it's really smart to, you know, if you're overwhelmed by the size of a book, then turn it into four little books and there you go.

Lauren: I joke about this with fanfiction all the time, actually, where – because fanfiction is published in word count. Like when you're looking at how long a piece of fanfiction is. And when I'm like, reading fanfiction before bed at night, I'll be like, oh, you know, a 50,000 word fic just sounds like way too much of a commitment right now. So instead I'm going to read five 10,000 words.

Paul: Yeah, there you go.

Lauren: And is that the exact same thing, did it take me the exact same amount of time? Yes. But somehow in my weird ADHD brain, that seems more logical and less of a commitment.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: So why not? Why not make that available for people that way?

Paul: Yeah. The goal is always more readers. So break it up. Chop it up. Make an audio. Make an ebook version. Make a print version. Whatever it takes to get people to read it.

Lauren: Yeah. Yes.

Paul: And I think you touched on this, but it's knowing your audience. So if you get a sense of your audience might be the kind of readers that prefer 10,000 words at a time, start publishing your content that way.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: If that's, that's a thing you won't necessarily know from the get go. But once you learn that, like, lean into it.

Lauren: Yeah. Serialized fiction is very much a thing.

Paul: It is.

Lauren: And it can be for nonfiction, too.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: Absolutely.

Paul: Yeah. For sure.

[30:44] – Large Print and Dyslexia-Friendly Editions

Lauren: I want to talk a little bit about two specific types of accessible print books that we've kind of touched on here.

Paul: Okay.

Lauren: I think they're interesting and so I want to highlight them a little bit.

Paul: Let's do it.

Lauren: The first one being large print books. Again, we've talked about this a little bit already, but I think that large print is something that's very often overlooked, ironically. And, and perhaps shouldn't be, depending on who your demographic is. Although that being said, they are not exclusively limited to being accessible for older readers. There are plenty of people that have any kind of vision impairment or visual impairment that might benefit.

Paul: Or even just prefer it. Like, I mean –

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: – the, the font size on my Kindle is a little bit bigger than the font size on my wife's Kindle, by default, and I just –it's just comfort for me to have it slightly larger.

Lauren: Well, you are older.

Paul: And I am an old man and my vision is basically gone. Thanks, Lauren.

Lauren: You're welcome.

Paul: I'm just gonna get my walker and leave.

Lauren: It's fine.

Paul: But no, I mean, yeah, it is one of those things where it does, I think, get overlooked. And it's important to call out how, how important having large print books is.

Lauren: Yes. Yeah. And, and I mentioned already, it can be a great way to get your books in libraries, if that's something that is important to you. On the point of senior readers, from the Pew Research study that we did that episode on a couple weeks ago. 73% of the survey responders over the age of 65 read a book in the last twelve months, and 65% of those were print books.

Paul: And I think that's really important to, to note, because that is going to be the primary audience for large print.

Lauren: Right. Right. And it is also something – I don't want people to be like, oh, that's so much work, it’s so much – it's really not. You know –

Paul: Creating large print editions?

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah no, it's not terribly hard.

Lauren: It's, it's going to be as simple as you're going to go through – I mean, you need an editable version of your manuscript. So if you hired somebody else to do the formatting, you might have to then have them do this. Although I would just say do this all at once.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: But really all you're doing is increasing your font size to maybe like I think 16 to 18 is kind of standard.

Paul: I believe so. If like, 10 to 12 is your normal –

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: – then 16 to 18 would be the large print.

Lauren: Yeah. And you know, a little more space between the lines then, too.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: You're gonna want to do that. And then, which actually I just learned about this while I was doing this episode outline, for this and the next format that we're going to talk about, they recommend that cream paper is easier to read on than white paper.

Paul: Yeah. Less contrast.

Lauren: Yes. Yeah. Sometimes that brightness –

Paul: Yup.

Lauren: – the starkness of the white paper can be really, contributing to the, to the vision difficulties –

Paul: Yup.

Lauren: – that people are having.

Paul: Yeah –

Lauren: So.

Paul: – the extra space is also a factor.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: Just, just opening up the space around the words makes them easier to read, too.

Lauren: Yup.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: Which, in doing all of that, you may need to adjust the width of your spine slightly on your book.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: Because it's going to increase your page count.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: And depending on how much it does... But that, that too is literally just, you know, add a little extra of whatever color the spine is on either side.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, if you've gone through the process of formatting your book once, reformatting the file to, to be large print is not going to be that difficult.

Lauren: Right. Right. And then the other kind of books that I wanted to talk about, just because I've always thought this was really interesting, was books that are targeted towards reluctant readers, people that need a little extra help, lower reading level kids, and dyslexic readers.

Paul: Oh, yeah.

Lauren: And so the dyslexic readers, specifically, was – this was the other format that I wanted to talk about, because there is a font. A dyslexic graphic designer designed this font Dyslexie that is very intentionally designed that the, the characters have a little bit more... they're bottom heavy. So the design of the letters, they're weighted on the bottom to actually, like, anchor them better to the page for dyslexic readers.

Paul: Interesting.

Lauren: And I learned about this because the bookstore that I worked at did an event with Henry Winkler. And Henry Winkler is –

Paul: The Fonz.

Lauren: The Fonz.

Paul: Sorry.

Lauren: And a children's book author, and dyslexic. Either he's dyslexic, or he has a dyslexic son.

Paul: I think he is –

Lauren: But I think it’s –

Paul: – but I could be wrong.

Lauren: Yes. I think, I think it's him. And so he was a very big advocate for this font when it first – and he, like all of his children's books are published in this font.

Paul: Oh that's awesome.

Lauren: And would talk about it a lot. So the event that we did with him, he was telling us all about this and how he's a big champion for this. If you're an author who's writing for young readers, or if you're putting together educational content for schools, maybe even text books, workbooks for homeschooling, something like that. I think that having a version of your book that was accessible to dyslexic readers...

Paul: Sure.

Lauren: Could be really cool, and literally the only thing you're doing is changing the font –

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: – in your book.

Paul: And I mean, I'll put on my, like, marketing hat for a second here and like. You're opening up an audience that maybe isn't getting as much saturation as the normal reading audience. You know, this is a group of kids who aren't going to have as many books available to them. So you actually have a better chance of getting in front of some readers when the market is smaller.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: Because you're making that choice to make your content accessible.

Lauren: Yes. The point of all of this, the, the TL;DR of this entire episode is whatever it takes to get as many books into the hands of as many people as possible.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: All we want is to make reading accessible to as many people that, that want access to it.

Paul: Yeah, absolutely. As long as your book’s good.

Lauren: Well. Let’s hope.

Paul: But no, actually, I don't think that matters.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: Because don't – set the quality or the content, like, direction or any of that aside, it's really just about making it available.

Lauren: Yup. Absolutely. And also library-friendly, in the same way that –

Paul: And library-friendly.

Lauren: – large print books are. And it's a very similar set up to large print, where like the, the main design changes that you would have to do is switch to this font. There's also an, open source version of it that might be more accessible than the main one. Using this font, they did say, again, slightly wider line spacing. And actually, not justifying the margins on both sides, but exclusively justifying to the left. Which is the one and only time that I will grant you permission to do that.

Paul: Yeah, that actually sounds kind of horrifying. But if it works.

Lauren: If it works, it works. And cream paper instead of white paper.

Paul: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of an advocate for cream anyway, I personally find that more comfortable to read. I use the sepia on my ebook, on my ereader. I just find it gentler on my – I don't even know if that's the right way to describe it, but more comfortable to read on that kind of cream color than on white.

Lauren: I do agree with that, which Matt and I had some back and forth on recently, but I do too. I generally prefer cream paper.

Paul: Yeah. I want to use my eyes for many, many years. I gotta go easy on them.

Lauren: Yeah, cause you gotta read all these ebooks.

Paul: Yeah.

[38:24] – Ebooks and Audiobooks

Lauren: The whole point of getting Paul to be here for this episode was so that we could talk freely about ebooks and audiobooks. Which we have done so already, slightly. But in this episode that we did recently, Matt and I did on, on Print Books Still Aren't Dead, we did emphasize this research from, from Pew Research Center that, that said that... I think it was like, 65% of the respondents. It was some – it was something, it was –

Paul: More than half.

Lauren: It was a significant number, definitely more than half of people that have read a book in the last year have read a print book. But, you know, not for nothing, the ebook and audiobook numbers were higher than they had been in the past too.

Paul: And I would encourage everyone to go read that article that Pew put out about their research, because it's short and it's pretty illuminating. But yeah, you can see print books trickling down ten-ish percent, and ebooks and audiobooks coming up fifteen or twenty percent. And it's – I don't foresee a world where print is ever dead. I mean, not – that's not true. We may run out of trees to make paper, so you know what I mean. But like, in the near term... we're going to continue to have print books, because they're great. Like, I'm not saying we shouldn't have print books. I – maybe to Matt once in a while just to mess with him. But like in general, I'm a big fan of print books too. I have a dozen, half dozen bookshelves in my house, gram packed full of books. They're piled on top. They're piled on the sides. I need, like two more at this point. But new formats are just new ways to get access to this content. And it's totally fine if you want to be someone like Matt who's like, I'm only going to read print books. That's fine, because basically every book out there is available in print, or more than enough for him to read for the rest of his life, you know? And he might miss out on a few audiobooks or ebook-only type things, but whatever. I don't think that's going to bother him. But it's just having those options that I think is important. And I don't think he would disagree that, like, I don't think Matt would say, just because you're an ebook only reader, you shouldn't be reading or something. You know? I don't think anybody would say that. I think that's the whole point is getting it in front of you in the way that makes the most sense. And, you know, I'm going to draw a correlation between the increase in ebook and audiobook and say that that's partly because they're more accessible for some people. You know? I’m probably making that up, and I'm just using intuition there. But like, that's possibly one of the reasons that those things climb up is, you know, they're accessible, they're easy, they're available when print isn't. You know, if I got bored with this conversation, I can pick up my phone and start reading a book right now. I'm not bored. I'm just kidding. I was just, just hypothetical –

Lauren: I didn't think you were for a second. But no, you're right. I mean, this is something that I've done a lot when I'm at Disney by myself. If there's a ride that I really want to go on and I'm like, okay, I – yeah, I will wait an hour and a half in line for Cosmic Rewind, but I'm here by myself, I'm going to pull up Libby and download an ebook, and I'm going to sit here on my phone. And I'm not going to carry a print book around a park with me.

Paul: Right.

Lauren: Especially a Florida park where it's going to rain at the drop of a hat and my poor book is going to get ruined.

Paul: I never travel with print books.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: I never travel with print books, partly because I'm worried about ruining them and partly because of the space. Whereas my ereader has got a little cover on it, it weighs almost nothing, it slides right in my backpack, and I've got 500 books available to me right there.

Lauren: Yup.

Paul: Not to mention whatever I want to go find on Libby or Bookshop or whatever, I want – I could go buy one, like they’re just, they're there. They're right there.

Lauren: I absolutely think that that is 100% why we're seeing that increase in, in both ebooks and audiobooks. And audiobooks, not to cut ahead, audiobooks had a... the orig- like the, the oldest survey results that they had shown in this article were from 2011. Audiobooks had 136% increase from 2011 to 2025, which is when this survey was conducted. And I absolutely believe that's because they're more accessible now than they ever have been. More readily available.

Paul: I would agree. Also, the accessibility as someone that struggled with audiobooks... I've tried. I've tried it a whole bunch when they first came out and couldn't get into it. I found it hard to keep my concentration on what was happening, because I'd be doing other stuff. I think that they've improved the technology behind it. So it's – the audio is clearer and crisper and easier to hear.

Lauren: Oh, absolutely.

Paul: I think they've gotten better at matching an author's tone to the narrator. I think there's a lot – I mean, I just read one that used instrumental music as the cues that you were moving between things. And I was like, oh, this is really cool. Because it's like, keying me in to these changes. Or like, you know, it had a lot of flashbacks in between, interludes it would call them, in between chapters. And it would cue you with music so that you knew that you were getting into an interlude. That's – I mean, that's an, a level of accessibility that has made it easier for me to enjoy audiobooks.

Lauren: I think that, that because – and, you know, this is, this is a chicken and egg kind of thing, but the production quality has dramatically improved. I've always been an audiobook listener. I had audiobooks on cassette when I was a kid.

Paul: Wow.

Lauren: And CD, and kind of fell off on that because they were expensive. So I wasn't – when I, when I graduated from high school and I didn't have access to my local library anymore, I stopped listening to audiobooks, and didn't have the disposable income to buy them. And then with the resurgence of Audible and Spotify and Libby and Libro.FM and all these things where it became so much easier – And then I think because they became so much more popular, they started, like, the studios started putting more effort into producing them. But just really quickly to go back to ebooks for a second. Realistically, all of the accessibility features that we have talked about in this are, are possible on an ereader. And that is why, realistically, despite the, you know, all the reasons that print is valuable and audiobooks are valuable, ebooks are great for readers that need different sized fonts, different – turning up the brightness or, or dimming the brightness on your screen, changing the color, dark mode, light mode, background, changing the fonts to fonts that make sense for you. Whatever it is.

Paul: Yup.

Lauren: This is something that you can do on an ebook in a way that you obviously can't do in any other way.

Paul: Yeah, I mean, one of the things I hate most about print books is when authors get too artsy with their fonts. You know, I – Cover? Fair game, do whatever you want. Maybe you want to do a nice little drop cap at the beginning of each chapter and chapter title, I'll let you have those. But once it gets into the body copy, there's about four fonts I'll tolerate, and if it's not one of those, I'm going to be kind of annoyed. And I think that's a very important thing that we get away from with ebooks, because that becomes... You know, there are some artistic choices, I get that. But the point is to get that story, or the content, into the reader's head. And if you can let them pick their own font to do that, that's just makes sense to me.

Lauren: I think that the, the font of your book is something that people don't notice unless it's wrong.

Paul: Every time.

Lauren: It's – if – it's, in the same way that like, justified margins –

Paul: Yup.

Lauren: – are my hill to die on, people don't notice that that is standard in a book, in a print book, is to have the margins justified on both sides of the page unless you don't do that, and someone opens a book up and goes, oh, why does this look weird?

Paul: I'm not trying to read a Google Doc here, I want a book.

Lauren: Right. Same. And I do just kind of want to point out quickly. I think one of the really interesting – I wanted to do a whole episode on this and Matt said no... which makes plenty of sense, honestly, I guess. But in the last few years we've seen the rise of several different, not just audiobook platforms, but audiobook platforms introducing functionality that allow you to move back and forth between formats.

Paul: You've told me about this.

Lauren: I think that's very cool.

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: I think that's very cool. So, like with Amazon, you can move back and forth between Audible and KU, if you have the Whispersync feature turned on. And what I mean by that is if you're listening to an audiobook and you stop it and then you go open the ebook that you have downloaded, it'll automatically sync the ebook to where you left off in the audiobook.

Paul: I love that.

Lauren: It's very cool.

Paul: That’s so cool.

Lauren: It's very cool. And then Spotify also recently rolled out a version of that called Page Match that is supposed to be compatible with print books as well, where you can, like...

Paul: It'll tell you what page to go to, basically?

Lauren: It’ll tell you what page to go to, or I think maybe you can take a picture of the – I think it's, I think it goes more in the other direction. You take a picture of the print book and it'll sync the audiobook to exactly where you left off.

Paul: That makes a lot of sense.

Lauren: I actually haven't tried it out yet. I probably should.

Paul: And these things will become the norm in the next ten years.

Lauren: They will.

Paul: To be able to bounce format to format for people like you who really do that.

Lauren: Yes.

Paul: Actively. I think that technology will continue to evolve and get streamlined. And it's partly – or the market reason – is people like you. Who will buy an ebook, an audiobook, and a print book, because they want to sell you all that stuff. But the side benefit is that it creates even more accessibility for everyone.

Lauren: Yes, absolutely. And I really want to emphasize that, that these are not... these are not features that were easy – Like, they didn't have one single developer just kind of spin this up on his off hours –

Paul: Just vibe code it.

Lauren: – as like a fun. Yeah. You know, just like a –

Paul: Definitely not.

Lauren: No. These were, these were big deals. These were a big – Page Match was Spotify’s like, primary product they were promoting – that was so many Ps in a row – at London Book Fair this year. Like, that was their, that was their main highlight feature at their booth this year. And that's because there is industry demand for it.

Paul: I mean, you got a company like Spotify at a book fair. Like.

Lauren: Yes.

Paul: That's kind of wild.

Lauren: Yes. Yes, I think it is too. But I just think that that's further... not just anecdotal proof, but actual hard evidence of the fact that having multiple formats available, and having the ease and accessibility of being able to move seamlessly –

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: – between those formats, there are clearly people in the industry and in tangentially-related industries that think it's worthwhile to invest in that. And that has to be because they, they've seen a need for it.

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: And they've seen demand for it.

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: And if you are somebody who is limiting your availability in not including specific formats of your book, I think you're going to get left behind.

Paul: Yes. You’re, I mean, you're, you're going to lose readers.

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: How many is the question, and how much that impacts your ability to, you know, be a sustainable creator or be a part time creator who has to go flip burgers for half the time to be able to afford rent.

Lauren: Yeah.

[49:56] – Supplemental Content to Support Reader Comprehension

Lauren: We're getting close to the end here.

Paul: Let’s wrap it up, then. Let's do it.

Lauren: But I just want to point out very, very quickly the idea of supplemental content within your books. Not creating different formats, although you can if you want to. Because some of the supplemental content that we're talking about can be something like a workbook or a reader’s guide that is a guided journal –

Paul: Yup.

Lauren: – a guided, like, here's a little somethin somethin extra on the side for you to help you better understand this. And that's a great way for you to create a new revenue stream for yourself in addition to providing accessibility features to your readers.

Paul: Particularly if you're marketing, like, books like you said, to like dyslexic readers or neurodivergent readers, or anyone that might have a learning disability or struggle, you know. If they really want to put the effort into reading something, giving them some sort of supplement that helps make that easier and digestible is not only, like you said, a revenue stream, but also just a benefit that's going to build that implicit goodwill.

Lauren: Yes. Yes. And make you – it's, I mean, for all the reasons that we've talked about in other episodes, when it comes to the value of publishing a book in general, this is going to make you the go-to person when they're thinking about, oh, I want to reference this thing that so-and-so authors said. Oh, I've got that –

Paul: Yup, yup, yup.

Lauren: I've got that workbook that they gave me, and I can flip through that. And that's even a great way if you're like, okay, I don't want to do print books, I want to do ebooks. Your primary format is in your ebook, but you have a printed...

Paul: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Lauren: Workbook, that they can – I can have my, my ebook on my iPad and my printed workbook that I can write along with. That's a great way to do both formats at once.

Paul: Yeah, that's really smart.

Lauren: But I also want to point out some built-in content that is – I would, I would qualify as accessibility features. And that's going to be things like charts and diagrams and infographics and things that like – Like I've said with people learn in different ways, sometimes no matter how much you explain it in words, it's not going to make sense until somebody sees it in a flow chart.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: Or sees a, an illustrated example of it. And how many textbooks have you read, when you were in high school, that had the exact same information regurgitated in a chart? And so maybe that's something that you want to think about including in, in your book.

Paul: That's a lot about knowing your readers, knowing your audience. And then, yes, understanding how they are most likely going to be able to easily absorb the information you're trying to share.

Lauren: Yes.

Paul: Or the story, or whatever it might be.

Lauren: Yes. Also, things like annotations, which is something that I've seen work very effectively in different types of books. When I was in high school, they had the No Fear Shakespeare books? Did you ever read these?

Paul: Yep, I did.

Lauren: That was literally the original Shakespeare on one side, and then a like, annotated explanation in modern English.

Paul: Yep.

Lauren: Of what, line by line breakdown. Super helpful.

Paul: I think that's the only way I learned to understand Shakespeare's writing.

Lauren: Absolutely. I mean, it's either that or just watching 10 Things I Hate About You until you understand that it's The Taming of the Shrew.

Paul: Well, yeah, that's true too.

Lauren: Like.

Paul: I mean, other forms of media do help with that as well. But like, actually reading and studying Shakespeare? I struggled with it at first. And then we did do one of those, I think for Macbeth, when I was in high school.

Lauren: Yup.

Paul: And it helped me wrap my head in like, around what he was actually saying, and then translate it into kind of modern English in my head so that I could get the story.

Lauren: Yes.

Paul: While still enjoying all the weird and flowery prose.

Lauren: Yes. I think – and I think that's something that can be really useful for different types of authors. And for fiction as well. If you have not read Crazy Rich Asians, very, very cool use –

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: – of footnotes

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: – as a narrative device. And a great example of how you can add annotations, footnotes, whatever, to add value to your content.

Paul: Terry Pratchett is pretty famously known for his footnotes too.

Lauren: Absolutely. So something like that could be, could be a great way to like, add, you know, a little, a little extra support into your content. And then like QR codes or links built into your books that will take people to, here's a video –

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: – that is a step by step of how I, how I just did this. Or here's a downloadable PDF guide with reading guide discussion questions to help you think through this a little more. I think there are a lot of... benefits.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: To that, honestly.

Paul: Yup.

Lauren: And a great way to keep people in your ecosystem –

Paul: Yup.

Lauren: – to get people. Somebody bought your book and has not interacted with you in any other way. It's just a great way for you to get them to your website.

Paul: Yeah.

Lauren: Or your YouTube channel, or onto your email list, or what- this is a great marketing device.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: In the same way –

Paul: Yeah, I know we've kind of –

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: – tried to avoid talking too much marketing in this episode, which I think is good because we want to make sure that this is clearly about the benefit to the reader. But there is numerous benefits to you as the author –

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: – to doing this as well.

[54:56] – Episode Wrap Up

Lauren: Absolutely. And I think that's a great place for us to kind of leave this, honestly.

Paul: K, bye.

Lauren: Is to wrap it all, wrap it all up there. And, and to say, yeah, this is something that... I do not want to undersell the importance and value of creating books that are easily or possibly accessible to as many people as possible. But there are also a great number of benefits to you as the author.

Paul: Yes.

Lauren: You should do this because it's the right thing to do, and because you, you believe in your content and your work, and you want to share that with as many people as possible. And you want to meet them where they are instead of forcing them to, to conform to the limited variety that you've provided for them.

Paul: It's a big win win. I mean, it's –

Lauren: But, yeah.

Paul: It's not, in the grand scheme of things, a lot of effort on your part to make your books available in various formats, or to add some of this supplemental information or... You know, you have to figure out what's going to work for your readers, but you should be doing that research anyway and understanding them. And then the potential benefit to expanding your audience is just huge.

Lauren: Yeah. So try it.

Paul: You should definitely try it.

Lauren: Try it. And let us know –

Paul: Try it.

Lauren: – in the comments, in the Spotify reviews.

Paul: Yeah send, send Lauren –

Lauren: Whatever.

Paul: – an email about your favorite way that you've seen a book made accessible.

Lauren: Or something that we didn't mention, if there's anything –

Paul: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like –

Lauren: Yeah.

Paul: Something...

Lauren: Yeah. If there's something that you as a reader or a consumer, you're like, it would really, really help me if some somebody did this, if more people did this. Let us know.

Paul: Yup.

Lauren: Social media comments, YouTube, email us, podcast@lulu.com. And come back next week for an episode that is hopefully under an hour and twenty-five minutes.

Paul: You're going to cut some of that, right?

Lauren: No, I'm going to publish it – I'm not even going to edit it.

Paul: Well, now I want to say something weird, but.

Lauren: I think that's.

Paul: On that note.

Lauren: On that note, Paul, thank you so much for joining me today.

Paul: Thanks for having me this week, this was fun.

Lauren: It was a lot of fun. Thanks for your willingness to do this and for letting me run six whole minutes into your meeting.

Paul: They can handle it without me.

Lauren: It's your meeting.

Paul: They can handle it without me. They got this. They got an agenda.

Lauren: Perfect. Alright.

Paul: Alright. Thank you.

Lauren: Thanks for listening.

Paul: Bye, friends.