Lauren: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Publish & Prosper. This is episode number 90. And today we are going to be talking about two of my favorite things. 

Matt: Two? 

Lauren: Two. 

Matt: Two of your favorite things. 

Lauren: Two – yes. 

Matt: So today we're talking about Taylor Swift and Disney? 

Lauren: I mean, if you could figure out a way to combine those into one episode topic that was also relevant to the podcast, I actually think that would be the greatest day of my life.

Matt: It'd probably be the last day of the podcast. 

Lauren: It would be the last day of my job. That's for sure. 

Matt: I don't know about that, but it'd definitely be the last day of the podcast. 

Lauren: But what a way to go. 

Matt: Says you. I'd prefer to go out eating tacos and maybe just talking about Disney World, but not Taylor Swift. 

Lauren: Eating tacos at Disney World while talking about Disney World. Although I don't know, are the tacos that good anywhere at Disney? 

Matt: So yes, in Epcot. At Mexico, I can never remember the name of the restaurant.

Lauren: The inside one or the outside one? 

Matt: The inside one. So good. Yeah.  

Lauren: It is very good. 

Matt: Everything we've had there is really good. And the outside one all I've had–actually, I don't think I've even eaten at the outside one. 

Lauren: I actually, as a professional drinker around the world – 

Matt: Wait. Which inside one are you talking about? I'm not talking about the one inside the actual – 

Lauren: Oh. 

Matt: Where the ride is. I'm talking about the other one that's indoors. It's their more upscale one.

Lauren: The one that's not – 

Matt: The one that's on the water. Like you can –  

Lauren: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that's the one that's only dinner. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: That's the one I haven't eaten at, actually. 

Matt: Yeah. Super good.

Lauren: The one inside the pavilion is excellent. I ate there – 

Matt: I have not eaten in there. I mean, I've done the ride obviously. 

Lauren: Yeah, of course. 

Matt: But I've not eaten in there. 

Lauren: Yeah, no, no, that one is really good. I made the mistake of taking two people who aren't big Mexican food eaters there, so. 

Matt: How's that even possible? 

Lauren: Well, I just, I took people that were picky eaters there and I didn't really think about it. But – 

Matt: I'm a picky eater, but I basically survive off Mexican food. 

Lauren: That's so true. That's so accurate for you. But the outside one, the Cantina outside is my go to like… If we're going to drink around the world, we're going to do it responsibly. And we're going to start with a big hearty meal. And they have arroz con pollo that is a very filling…you're getting a good bowl of carbs and protein and a nice margarita. And then you go from there and that's how you start the day. 

Matt: Have you actually made it all the way around the world? 

Lauren: Yes, I have. So I've actually only made it all the way around the world twice. The first time I ever did it, we made it all the way around the world. And then this most recent trip for my birthday, we actually did make it all the way around, and it was great. 

Matt: I don't understand how we don't see more people just flat out puking their brains out. 

Lauren: I know. 

Matt In EPCOT. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Cause I know so many people try to drink around the world, even from back when I worked there in the mid nineties, like that was a thing, like a big thing. And even more recently when I was there just a few weeks ago. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Like, I mean, it was August, middle of August. Blazing hot. 

Lauren: That's the – yeah. 

Matt: And there's just people walking around everywhere, red-faced, just getting hammered. And it just, it seems like the most miserable thing on the planet. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I don't understand it. 

Lauren: I am – cause I agree with you. I am surprised that you're not seeing more people like, truly collapsing from the heat, the dehydration. 

Matt: Yeah, I don’t get it. 

Lauren: Water isn't super readily available. So you're like, extra dehydrated. 

Matt: Well, it is, you just have to be basically a Middle Eastern Oil Prince to be able to afford it at every country. 

Lauren: Well, I mean, yeah. But even if you – like, you can ask for tap water everywhere. But it's Florida tap water, and I'd actually rather be dehydrated than drink that. But yeah, there's a…one of these days I'll get around to finishing my guide to drinking around the world, and then everyone – 

Matt: You won’t. 

Lauren: I will. Yes, I will. 

Matt: You won't. 

Lauren: Yes, I will. 

Matt: You know, I'm going to write that other book without you, by the way. 

Lauren: No, you're not. I'm going to –  

Matt: I am. I'm already halfway through it. 

Lauren: I thought you were working on your other one. 

Matt: But that's basically done other than the few edits I need to make. 

Lauren: Okay, we'll circle back to this. 

Matt: You might have missed the train on that one. You need to get this other one out. This Epcot one.

Lauren: I know. Well, my goal is to have it – 

Matt: There's other reasons you should probably get that out too.  

Lauren: Yes, absolutely.

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: But my other reason, or my other my current motivation for it is I want to have those files as sample files to use at Momentum. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So that's my new, that's my new motivation right now. We'll come back to that. 

Matt: Alright. 

Lauren: We'll come back to the other book too. 

Matt: We'll see.

Lauren: In the meantime – 

Matt: Maybe I'll let you edit the other one. 

Lauren: I could contribute that way, but we'll see. But the point. 

Matt: What is the point? 

Lauren: Is that today we are talking about two of my favorite things that are not – 

Matt: Oh, that’s right. 

Lauren: – Disney or Taylor Swift. 

Matt: Which is? 

Lauren: Books and libraries.

Matt: I feel like I want to take issue with you separating the two. 

Lauren: Why? 

Matt: I don't know. I mean… I guess it's not worth it. Go ahead. 

Lauren: Okay. So we did an episode a while ago, probably a year and a half ago at this point on how to get your book into indie bookstores. 

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: Which is a topic that was near and dear to me because I worked at an indie bookstore for a very long time. And I think that's something that a lot of people aspire towards, whether you're traditional publishing or self-publishing, people want their books – there's something special about seeing your book in a physical bookstore. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And I think that's something that I'd love to help anybody be able to do. But we did talk about this recently, it's come up a few times recently on and off the air, about also libraries, and getting your book into libraries. And that is a distinct process. There is definitely some overlap between getting your book into an indie bookstore and getting your book into a library, but there are some parts of the library experience that are very specific to that. 

Matt: Yeah. There's a lot of similarities, you're right. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So the distribution channels, the way that you actually physically make your book available to bookstores and to libraries is basically the same. A lot of how you encourage bookstores and libraries to actually seek your book out from those distribution catalogs is kind of the same. There are some subtle differences or nuances with which you go about these things. And so that's what we're going to kind of lay out today is again, how to get these books into libraries. Or at least lay the foundation for making your book available to libraries and library buyers, librarians. How to put forth pitches and emails and things like that, so. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Alright. 

Lauren: So if you do want to go back and listen to that indie bookstore one, cause you're interested in that, I will have that linked in the show notes. It's episode number 37. But I would also say listen to this one because there's going to be some good advice for this one that will apply to both. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Cool. Ready to get started? 

Matt: Let's get started. 

Lauren: Okay.

[6:54] - Understanding Book Distribution

Lauren: I think we should establish a couple of things up at the top. I realized as I was kind of going through this outline, like it's really important to make sure that people understand a couple of things about book distribution before we get started here, because that is something that will come up a lot throughout this episode. Bookstores and libraries both acquire their books through wholesale distributors. Now, bookstores can also get their books directly from publishers. A lot of bookstores have relationships with specific sales reps at traditional publishing companies that will reach out to the bookstore and say: hey we have, these are the new books coming out next season, we think you should order these and have them in your store or whatever, blah, blah, blah. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But if you're going to a bookstore and you say, hey, I want a copy of this book that you didn't have on your shelf. And I want to order a copy of it through you guys, they're going to reach out to a wholesale distributor in order to order it. Libraries get their books pretty much exclusively from distributors.

Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: They're not getting them from the publishers. And those distributors are places like Ingram Content Group and Baker & Taylor, in the US, are the two big ones. When we're talking about distributors, we're not talking about Amazon or Barnes & Noble. Those are retailers. 

Matt: Correct. 

Lauren: So, I understand that those are the kind of terms that we use a lot to mean different things. Like we talk about having your book in global distribution as one of the ways to go wide with your book sales. And then the example that we use there is very often that way your book will be available on Amazon and Bookshop.org and other physical and online retailers, which I can understand why that would be confusing. But the reason that they are available to, your books are available to those retailers in that circumstance, is because they are being distributed through a wholesale distributor like Ingram Content Group. 

Matt: Ingram is probably the largest and oldest in the game, by the way. But yes, yeah, most bookstores and most, if not all, libraries have access to or heavily utilize Ingram Content Group. 

Lauren: Yes. You'll also probably come across a lot of references – if you're looking up more information on how to get your book into a bookstore or a library, you will very likely come across people saying that because you want your book distributed through Ingram Content Group, you need to use IngramSpark, their self-publishing arm, in order to do that. And that is not true. 

Matt: Correct. 

Lauren: That is an option if you want it to be, but books that are distributed through global distribution from Lulu also go through Ingram Content Group. So you are not limited to just using IngramSpark if you are trying to have your books distributed through Ingram Content Group. Those are separate entities. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. So definitely keep that in mind. Another distributor that we're going to talk about in this episode is Overdrive. Overdrive is a digital media distributor. So that includes the ebooks and audiobooks and also owns one of the most popular library apps that will come up throughout this episode. And that's the other thing that I want to kind of establish ahead of time. So a lot of people, when they think about getting their books in a library, they might be thinking about having a physical print book on the shelf in their local library, which is definitely something that we're going to talk about. I have a feeling Matt's going to be more inclined to talk about that, as a fan of print media over digital media. 

Matt: I've been inclined and known to do so. 

Lauren: Yes. But I also want to make it clear that these days there's also a digital library that is very popular and it's a great way for a lot of people to have access to library catalogs without ever actually going into a physical library. So that is something that we're going to talk through kind of both of those options. The most popular library app in the US right now is Libby, which is the app that is owned by Overdrive. There are other ones too, Hoopla is another big one, there are even more that are out in the international markets, but Libby is definitely the biggest one. And I was actually, I was looking into this when I was working on this outline, and Overdrive released some of their stats from 2024 earlier this year. There were 366.2 million ebook checkouts on Libby in 2024 and 278.3 million audiobook checkouts. So there are a huge number of people using this app. I was trying to find information on like, how many users and couldn't really do that, but they did also say that in 2024, there were 9.2 million new installations of the app. Which was a 1% increase from the year before, which means there were also 9 million, or close to 9 million, app installations in 2023. And I mean, I personally have had Libby on my phone since the day it became available, which was more than two years ago. And I know a lot of friends that have it too. So there's definitely a lot of people using Libby throughout the country and it continues to grow. This is definitely like a very big platform, and a great option for you to consider. So as we're talking through this, just make sure that you're keeping in mind the distinction between the different types of libraries that we're talking about here. 

Matt: How much did Libby just pay you for all that? 

Lauren: If Libby wanted to pay me anything, they could, or they could just look the other way at the fact that I have multiple library cards. 

Matt: Okay. How about we move on from Libby? 

Lauren: Yeah, okay. Go for it. 

Matt: By the way, Libby, you owe us about $5,000 for all that air time.

[12:34] - Why Libraries? 

Matt: What's the motivator for wanting to be in a library? Like, I understand bookstores for a number of reasons. I think there's obviously the financial reason, right? If your book is in bookstores, I think the connotation there is that you're going to sell more books and that may or may not be true, but nonetheless, that's there. And then there's also the idea that, like you said earlier, having your book in a bookstore is also somewhat of a social signal that you've kind of made it, so to speak, right? Like my book is in bookstores. So I understand those very surface-level motivators for why people would want to get their books in bookstores, but what's the, what's the driving force… like, why would it benefit me to get my book into a library? I'm not going to necessarily get paid for that per se, or at least to the best of my knowledge. And quite frankly, my book in a library of 500,000 other books, and what in my mind is a place where not very many people go anymore. Like, why would I do this? 

Lauren: Well, so first of all, you will get paid. 

Matt: I will get paid? 

Lauren: You will, I mean, you will sell, cause the library still does have to purchase those copies. 

Matt: Well, yes, but – 

Lauren: Even the digital copies. 

Matt: You know, but once they purchase them, that's it, right? Like, it's there and if people check it out then they check it out. But whereas, you know, bookstore, if people purchase the copies, then hopefully the bookstore will reorder more copies until that cycle slows down or comes to an end. I don't know.

Lauren: That's fair. I think that my short answer is discoverability, because – or not my short answer, because it's not going to be a short answer, it’s me we’re talking about here.  

Matt: No I think it’s a good answer, yeah. 

Lauren: But the discoverability that we often talk about is lacking on so many other distribution or retail options is still very much active in libraries in both digital and physical libraries. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Librarians are still very highly regarded as genuine influencers, not social media influencers, but they can absolutely get books into people's hands regularly. People still very much trust librarians as like, I'm going to them for help finding a book and they are going to get that book to me. So that is a great option for you. Also, unlike some of the platforms where people are not really browsing for books anymore, libraries are still more of a browsing place, whether that's physical or digital media. I think that that is something that still exists in libraries and does not exist so much in retailers. But also then, because of that discoverability, as a side effect of that discoverability, and the fact that it is a library, people are a lot more likely to take a risk on an unknown author that they don't have to pay for the content. And then down the road, will purchase your later books or products or services, because they've been introduced to you in this…

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Freely available way. And now we're willing to go follow through with a purchase later. So I think there is still revenue opportunity there. It's just a little bit…

Matt: Further down stream? 

Lauren: Further down. Yes. 

Matt: Yeah. I'll buy that. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: That makes sense. I would assume that, and feel like, similar to a bookstore, having your book in the library also gives you a certain amount of credibility. 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: I don't know if there's any way to prove that necessarily, but I think the perception exists that if your book is in libraries, or in a library, or you're able to show that there is some credibility there, because I think going back to what you said, you know, librarians themselves being seen as pretty good moderators of what's good and what's not to a degree. Not necessarily as gatekeepers, but more as like, recommendation agents, if you will, of good quality content or wanting to put good quality titles into their libraries that they work at, I could see where some credibility comes with having your book in there. So I think those are two really good reasons to shoot for having your book in libraries besides just getting your books into bookstores is yeah, credibility, discoverability, are really, really important things I think. So. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: You know, fair enough. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I buy that. 

Lauren: You're also going to, you're probably going to foster some kind of community relationship as a side effect of this. We're going to talk through how to actually go about getting your book in libraries. But one of the best places to start with that is with a local library. It can only benefit you to foster a relationship with your local librarians and the community of patrons that are attending events or frequently taking out books from the library. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: That's the connection that you want. 

Matt: I mean, that makes sense. 

Lauren: Yeah, for sure. 

Matt: It's the same thing we say again about indie bookstores. Starting where, where you live, start local – 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: – and work your way out. So. 

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: I like it. Alright. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

[17:00] - Prepare Your Book for Library Standards

Matt: What do I got to do to get my book in a library? 

Lauren: That's a great question. 

Matt: Do I have to like, buy a bunch of librarians gift cards or take them out to dinner? Or like, how does that work? 

Lauren: I mean, you could try that. It might be really fun. 

Matt: So step one is I need to put my book into distribution. 

Lauren: Yes. Step – yes. 

Matt: As much as I personally am not a fan of the concept of distribution, if I want my book in libraries, I have to put it in distribution, right? 

Lauren: Yes. You do have to have your book available for the libraries to order. I don't really think that there are any libraries in this day and age that would accept you walking in with a stack of your printed physical books and saying hi, can I give these to you? 

Matt: Come on. 

Lauren: So it has to be something that is available for them to order. Which is why we went through the effort of establishing at the beginning of this episode what Ingram Content Group and distributors like that are, because you need to know that your book needs to be available from those places.

Matt: It's important to note that, very similar to having your book available for bookstores through distribution, the same goes for libraries in the sense that you need to set a very friendly discount, a wholesale discount. And it's typically somewhere between 40 and 50%. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: That's going to catch their eye. They're not probably going to be motivated to stock your book in their library if you don't have that set… And nine times out of ten, if not ten times out of ten, you have to set it to allow returns as well. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So those are important things to consider. It's not as simple as just saying, put my book into distribution and then it's available. It will be available, that is true, but it's not going to be something that signals the libraries and the librarians to say, hey, this is something that's a very easy title to stock, if you don't have that discount and those returns enabled. So I think that's really important. 

Lauren: Those were both very distinct rules that we had when I was working at the bookstore. Any time that we were looking up a book to order for a customer request you had to check the discount from the wholesaler and you had to check the returnability. And if the discount was lower than 40% or the book was not returnable, we were not allowed to order it. Even if it was available, even if they had it and we could order it, we would not take the risk of a book that was a lower discount than 40% or non-returnable. 

Matt: Yeah. And again, if you're using Lulu, this is as simple as going in and putting your title into global distribution. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: But make sure that you make those, you put those settings in place, the discount and the returnability. So. 

Lauren: Yes. You also need to make sure, and this is also a requirement for putting your book through global distribution. You need to make sure that your book has all of the appropriate metadata and that it is accurate. We did an episode on that, if you're not familiar with what that means I'll link that in the show notes too. It's episode number 59.  

Matt: Yup. 

Lauren: But you need an ISBN. Your book needs to have an ISBN in order for it to be accepted into circulation at any library – 

Matt: That’s right. 

Lauren: – and in order for it to be accepted into global distribution at all. 

Matt: As well as a scannable barcode. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: A lot of people forget that. 

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that is a big one. Because you do also need…well that's for physical. I mean, physical books. Ebooks also, you still need all that, that metadata and  ISBN. Matt: Yeah. Remember when I talk, I'm talking strictly for print. 

Lauren: Yes. That's fair. That's fair. And we will talk about the differences in a bridge between those two. 

Matt: Well. 

Lauren: But this is more of like a high level, like regardless of what type of media you're trying to get into, you're trying to get a book in any format. These are things you have to do. 

Matt: Some other things to keep in mind, they are very partial to you having a Library of Congress number. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So if you're able to, and you should be, you should get yourself a Library of Congress number. And if you are, you know, really pushing print, which that would be me, libraries are also very partial to casewrap hardcovers. And if you're going to do paperback, make sure that whatever printer you're using or whatever POD outfit you're using, like Lulu, they do a very good quality paperback with really good quality glues used. Libraries are not fond of books falling apart when they first get them. So I think you guys all know who I'm referring to. 

Lauren: It's very true. And you can also…if you're listening to that and you're going, ah, but I really had my heart set on doing this type of print edition, or this type of print edition, do a library edition. 

Matt: Yep. 

Lauren: Publish specifically a library edition that is a casewrap hardcover and don't have that edition available on your website. Or like have the other versions that you want and just put that library edition through global distribution for libraries. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: You know, you can definitely do that. For the copyright stuff too, for the Library of Congress. We did do an episode on copyright as well. 

Matt: We did. 

Lauren: I don't remember exactly how much we talked about Library of Congress within that – 

Matt: A little bit – 

Lauren: – but I think we talked a little bit about it, yeah.  

Matt: They have a really good website though. 

Yeah. They do, they have a lot of great resources. 

Matt: It's much easier to navigate than you would think. So definitely check out their website, but it's not super complicated. 

Lauren: No. 

Matt: It’s fine, yeah. 

Lauren: They have a lot of great resources on their website in general. I'll find an article and link it in the show notes. There will be a couple of resources linked in the show notes on this episode as well. So I highly recommend checking that out.

[22:09] - Catch Librarians’ Attention 

Matt: So those are some of the more, I think, mechanical and logistical things that you need to be thinking about if you want your book in libraries. But the other thing that you really need to start focusing on as well once you have all of those things in place, like making it actually ready for libraries to go and purchase, is you have to drive some demand.

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Librarians don't just sit in the Ingram catalog all day looking for cool new books. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: They might do that on occasion on their breaks or something like that, but there has to be something that triggers or motivates them to want to purchase that book for their library. So this is where we get back again onto that path of…the same way you might try to generate demand and market your book to land on the shelves of bookstores. You kind of have to do the same thing for libraries, right? 

Lauren: Yes. And there's different ways to do that. When we're talking about print versus ebooks or audiobooks. Libraries in particular, you can absolutely manufacture demand if you want to. You can ask all of your friends and family and fans to reach out to their library and request your book. And you should, if that's something that really, really means something to you. Bookstores, they might notice. Libraries, they're not really going to notice who's requesting the books or whether or not they're – 

Matt: Well, yeah. A lot of libraries actually it's, you don't even have to talk to somebody. 

Lauren: Yup. 

Matt: A lot of libraries, there's either like a suggestion box, like suggest a title type thing or they have a digital way for you to do it. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So in many cases, unlike a bookstore, you may not even have to talk to somebody in library to suggest a book. And like you're saying, if they get five requests in a month for a certain book, they're not really gonna think anything shady is going on. And not that that's shady necessarily, but a bookstore, and especially an indie bookstore, if they get five requests from people in the same month, which is more than likely done in person, face to face, they're gonna be like, well, okay, let's take another look at this.

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So. 

Lauren: And you can also separate from the library website and the physical suggestion boxes or whatever. If you're using an app like Libby, you can request books in Libby. I do that all the time

Matt: I'm never going to have to worry about where you are if you ever leave Lulu, because I'm just going to go to Libby and you'll be sitting right there in one of their cubicles.

Lauren: I talk to them every time we go to London Book Fair. 

Matt: Oh my god. 

Lauren: I find their booth every time. I actually, I think about this a lot. If I could go back in time and redo college, there's some version of me that went and got a masters in library sciences. I actually really, really feel very passionately about libraries. Spent a lot of time there as a kid. I'm sure that's very shocking to everybody except my mom that's listening to this. 

Matt: I'm just going to move on. 

Lauren: Yup. Okay. 

Matt: It's one of those days. 

Lauren: Yeah, for sure. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. Uh huh. But yes, I would absolutely, I would encourage you if you want to, if it's really something that you want to do is to get your book into library, ask your friends, ask your family. Hey, just take a couple of minutes and drop a request for my book to your local library. I've also seen this is kind of specific, but I've seen a lot of authors do preorder campaigns where they incentivize with a gift that's like if you show me proof of purchase, if you show me a receipt that you preordered my book, I will send you a signed book plate, or I will send you an advanced sneak peek of the first chapter or something like that. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: One of the things that I've seen authors start doing is including proof of a library request. So, you know, if they want to encourage people that it's like, we understand that not everybody can afford to purchase this book and that's okay. We understand that not everybody is financially able to buy a book ahead of time. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: But if you can prove to me that you submitted a request for your library to stock this book or add this book to their catalog, I will count that as a pre-order and I will include you in the reward system for the pre-order. 

Matt: That's very inclusive of them. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Back to what we're talking – Librarians also discover things in various different ways that oftentimes differ than the normal consumer. So yes, when you're just straight up trying to sell your book to the general public, there are things you can do for discoverability. One of those things right now is put it in a library like we're talking about. But if you're a librarian, there are certain ways that you discover new books. Like we said earlier, they're not just sitting around thumbing through the, the Ingram Content Group catalog, which is massive, no matter how you filter it, slice it, or dice it. There are things that librarians use. One of which is industry…for lack of a better term, industry, you know, magazines or media sources, right? So Publishers Weekly is one of them and they have a section called Booklife, which is for self-published authors and titles. So if you're trying to really get the attention of libraries and librarians, as well as bookstores, by the way, think about getting yourself a spot in Booklife, in Publishers Weekly. There's lots of other sort of review style media outlets and magazines, Kirkus Reviews and Foreword and a bunch of others. The ALA, you know, has their own as well. You need to be where librarians are going to be. Besides the library. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Right? So getting yourself in front of librarians through things like these different trade review organizations, we again talked about, you know, suggesting the title at the library. They're obviously going to see those requests for that title, and then trying to do things, again, that we've talked about on the episode with getting your stuff into bookstores as well, like local media outlets and maybe securing some time, or trying to secure time with local media, getting the attention of librarians and things like that. 

Lauren: Yeah. I think this is something that we might have to revisit this episode topic, honestly, because it's come up a couple of times recently where we've talked about trade reviews and the distinction between trade reviews and consumer reviews. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And in this particular scenario, I think that trade reviews are important. And that's – 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Matt and I, I think, disagree on the importance or on the value of different types of reviews in general. 

Matt: As we usually – 

Lauren: As we often do, but I don't think the average consumer cares all that much about whether or not you got a starred review or whether or not Library Journal has reviewed your book or Kirkus or Publishers Weekly. 

Matt: The average consumer doesn't even know about those things. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But librarians absolutely do.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And. 

Matt: Librarians, bookstores – 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: – you know, all of those, yeah. 

Lauren: Yes. Those are absolutely relevant to them. So if this is a goal of yours, then you should absolutely be submitting your book for trade reviews from those major sources. 

Matt: Yeah. I don't take issue with trade reviews. Because regardless of whether or not you have to pay for them, they are a lot more, in my opinion, reliable. Consumer reviews, I take zero stock in those. There's just too much AI and gaming of the system going on. I don't even look now, I don't even pay attention to them. I’d much rather take a word of mouth recommendation or just take a chance on a book, I won't – but a trade review 100% these are people that that's their job. They care about it. They care about good books, and whether or not you're getting a paid placement that does not affect the review of your book. I mean trade reviews, they're gonna do their diligence. They're gonna do a good job. So yeah.

Lauren: I want to make a very clear point there that when Matt is saying a paid review, we don't mean like, paid to guarantee you'll get a good review. 

Matt: Correct. 

Lauren: If you ever see that, cause there are bad faith factors out there that will do that. That will say like, pay me $150 for a good review of your book. Absolutely not. Do not do that. 

Matt: no. 

Lauren: We are not encouraging that at all – 

Matt: No. 

Lauren: – and actually warning you against it. But if it is a, you know, there's an application fee. There's a $50 application fee or you're buying space in a print magazine. 

Matt: Well, no. 

Lauren: That's different. 

Matt: What you're doing is the first thing you said. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So if it's Publishers Weekly, if it's one of the others, you got to understand if they didn't charge something for your book to be considered for a review, they would be inundated with hundreds of thousands of books. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So those fees are there primarily to basically whittle that pile down to the people who are the most serious about wanting their book reviewed professionally. Like, go look in Publishers Weekly and Booklife. Not every book reviewed in there has five stars or four stars. mean, they're going to give it a solid, 100% professional and accurate review based on their reviewers. You're not paying for a good review, like you said, yeah. So it's more of a stop gap there to keep, again, the reviewers from getting inundated with hundreds of thousands of books. If it was for free. Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: I actually, that's a really good point. I would highly recommend, if this is something that you're planning on doing, go look at examples. Go find a physical print edition of a recent Publishers Weekly issue and look at what's in there. Look at what books they're featuring, what their areas of interest are, how those books are being represented. Look at all of that stuff. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And if you're not sure where to go do that, try your library. 

[31:08] - Pitching for Librarians’ Attention

Lauren: But that also brings me to kind of my next point about how to get your books in front of librarians. Because even if you're like trying all these options and you haven't quite gotten anywhere yet, you can still actually just reach out to librarians. You can absolutely pitch your book to…whether you can find an acquisition librarian or just reach out to the head librarian or the head of a specific department. You can definitely do that. I would highly encourage you to do your research ahead of time. Check the specific library's website. They might have instructions readily available for this is how you submit your book for consideration for inclusion in our library. And if they do, please follow those instructions. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: It's not going to make you stand out in a good way. And if they don't have that, then you can always reach out to them and say, hey, I would love to submit my book for consideration for your library. How do I go about doing that? Who is the best person for me to send this information to? See what they say. 

Matt: Yeah. Along those lines, if you're going to reach out, if you're going to draft a pitch, you want to keep it short, concise. You want to put all the relevant information in there. Again, they're not looking to read twenty-seven paragraphs about your book, and they won't. If you're lucky enough to get it in front of somebody, they want to know the specifics quickly. 

Lauren: Yup. 

Matt: And they need to move on. So you're going to want to keep that short and concise. You're going to want to include some of the most important things. Again, title, subtitle, your ISBN, for sure. If there's a physical print copy that you're really trying to get in the library, you're going to want to include trim size and page count, publication date. You're going to want to include price. They're going to want to know all those things. That way they can go and find it very easily if they do decide they want to stock it, and they'll have all that information. The more information that you can include that is just straight up objective information about the book, the better. And the less you include that is just your opinion, your pitch or fluff, the better. There's also something called a MARC record, an M-A-R-C record that one of the things that I was researching said it's really helpful to have that and to include that. I don't know a lot about a MARC record, I don't know if you do? But what I found is basically it's, MARC stands for Machine Readable Cataloging. It's a standardized format for library data that enables computers to store, exchange, and manipulate information about library materials. It sounds like it's probably similar to an ISBN number, but different in the way that it's specifically for libraries. It is something that I believe you get from Library of Congress as well. So again, you may want to look into getting one of those. But everything I also found said these were not required necessarily, but it could potentially make it easier and faster for your book to get purchased and put into libraries if you had one. 

Lauren: Awesome, yeah. 

Matt: So, think about that. 

Lauren: I'm going to also publish a blog post that is a supplement to this episode, because I know there's a lot of information that we're talking about in here that you might want to go back and reference without having to re-listen to the episode. Which as always, there's also always the transcript of every episode, but I am also going to make sure we have a blog post with all this info in it. So definitely check that out. I will try to look up some more info on the… 

MARC record? 

Lauren: MARC record. Thank you. I was like, mark code, that's not it. Okay. But yeah, we'll definitely try to include as much information as possible about that. The point stands that what you're trying to do is provide as much information as possible and as little…fluff is the nicest. I kept coming up with not nice ways of saying it. Which is not to say that you cannot include… If you have notable accolades. If you have received trade reviews and you want to include those in your pitch email, fantastic. Please do. 

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: If you have won some kind of award, if you've been recognized in some way for your work that the book is related to, definitely include that in there. This is not where you include the status of, ‘my mom said it was the best book that she ever read.’ But maybe if you have a hundred ratings on Goodreads and you have a 4.8 star average of those hundred ratings that you can include in there. That kind of stuff that just highlights and emphasizes to whoever is looking at this that this isn't just another self-published AI drivel, but actually high quality content that they should want to look further into. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

[35:39] - Getting Your Print Book Into Libraries

Lauren: All right You want to get into some specifics a little bit about print books and digital media? 

Matt: Yeah, I think we kind of touched a little bit on these, but let's just do it anyways and keep it, as you said, we'll delineate between the two formats. So I'll start with print. Some specific tips for print. Again, you're going to want to make sure that your book meets industry standards. And like I said earlier, libraries typically look for casewrap hardcovers or well-done paperbacks. Try to keep it industry-standard sizing as well, six by nines, five and a half by eight and a half, things like those. Their shelves are often a certain size most of the time as well. And I think that helps with it. And then we say this all the time, but it's just as important if not more so here. They are going to look for quality signals, not just because it's an indie published book, but because again, purchasing or responsible for titles coming into the library, their name is attached to that purchase. They want to make sure they're bringing in quality work. So again, consider an editor, consider a cover designer. Those things we always talk about that put those quality signals out into the world, they're just as important here as they would be anywhere else. So making sure all of that stuff is as well-honed as possible, I think only increases your chances of getting your book. Other things print book specific, you're gonna wanna make sure that your book cover, sort of the copy on the back or the description, the blurb, make sure that is on point. It should either match or run in line with the description you use in your metadata. So all that should line up and match up. And again, if you have any professional reviews or trade reviews, you're going to want to make sure those are front and center versus some sort of consumer or reader reviews. 

Lauren: But also make sure that you don't overlook the…not necessarily metadata, but the factual details that are supposed to go on your cover as well. Matt said earlier about the barcode going on the back cover –

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – that you want to make sure your book has a barcode and an ISBN. You also want to make sure that your genre is listed on your book. I mean, think about the fact that libraries are sorted by Dewey Decimal Systems and libraries are very clearly sorted by genre and subgenres within that. And you need to be clear to the library, like, they need to be able to tell where to put your book – 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – without reading it, because they don't have time to read every single book that comes through their doors. So your metadata and your information that's attached to your book, but also displayed on your book has to be accurate and has to help them know very clearly where to put your book in their catalog. 

Matt: That's a good point. 

Lauren: Yeah. You know, that's something definitely to keep in mind. Also the spine. Matt just said, keep in mind their shelves, the shelf sizing, but also keep in mind that how libraries display books, which is very often spine out in a bookshelf like you would normally browse. If you don't have your title and author information on the spine, people aren't going to look at that book. 

Matt: Yeah. 

[38:44] - Getting Your Ebook Book Into Libraries

Lauren: Separate from print books, Matt might not care so much about getting an ebook or an audiobook into circulation in a library, but I do. Especially as somebody who…that is primarily how I get my books these days, using my library card and the Libby app to get ebooks and audiobooks. So this is something that's very near and dear to my heart and my personal self-interest. Obviously these things do, like, they can go hand in hand with each other. If you get a print book accepted into the library, definitely include in your pitch additional formats available. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So if you have an ebook and audiobook in addition to the print book, make sure they know that. 

Matt: That also goes back to ISBN numbers, right? 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So make sure that you have ISBN numbers for all of your formats and that that's included. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Ebook, audiobook, print book. 

Lauren: Yes, include all of that. And yes, you do need individual ISBNs for each of those formats, if that's not clear. 

Matt: And, you know, hardcover versus softcover. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: If you have both, both would need ISBN numbers. And if you have both, list both, because they may prefer one over the other, so. 

Lauren: Yes. And if you do choose to go through with making a separate library edition, that would also need a separate ISBN. So definitely make sure –

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – that you have that all represented in your pitch template or sell sheet or however you choose to put this information together. For your ebooks and your audiobooks, you're definitely going to want to make sure that if you want to include them that they are not restricted by any kind of exclusivity contracts. Something like your ebook being in the Kindle Unlimited program. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: Now you definitely can, like I've definitely seen books in my library app and then also on Kindle Unlimited, but they were probably added to the library before they were added to KU. If Kindle Unlimited has exclusive rights to your ebook, the library can't acquire it. But the same is true for audiobooks and Audible. If your book is an audiobook that is an Audible exclusive, the library cannot acquire your Audible exclusive audiobook, which is infuriating as somebody who listens to a lot of audiobooks. And some of the biggest ones are Audible exclusives and I don't want to pay for them. I just want to listen to them once. 

Matt: I'll never understand that, that this whole exclusivity thing with KU, but whatever, that's not my thing.

Lauren: I know. I mean, that's how they get people to look away from the fact that they're getting paid fractions of pennies. But yeah, just keep that in mind if that is something that you are going to be doing, make sure that your books are available for libraries to acquire. In the same way that we're going to say, make sure you're using distribution platforms to make your digital media available. We mentioned Overdrive earlier. Obviously you can distribute through Lulu. There are other, we talked about this, I think in the episode about going wide with your book distribution. There are aggregate distribution platforms like Draft2Digital that will help you distribute your books to all different types of resellers and wholesalers. So if that is an option, if that's something that you want to look into, that is still a way to get your digital media to libraries. It's still, mean, it's, it's the same thing where it's still they're going to distribute to Ingram who is going to distribute to the libraries, or Overdrive and distribute to the library, like whatever it is. Like it's still they're just you're just adding an extra step to it at that point. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But there is still like that's something that you're going to want to do. Is make sure that your digital media is available and it's not locked up in any kind of exclusivity contract at the time that you're pitching it. And again, like we were saying earlier with the requesting books from libraries, super easy to do for digital media, especially with all these apps. So if you're gonna, if you're gonna try to rely on that, I would encourage you to try that out with ebooks and audiobooks specifically. 

Matt: Whatever. I hate talking about ebooks. 

Lauren: Alright, so. Next.

[42:47] - Pitching for Library Programming

Matt: Well, I think we just wanted to throw in one more thing here, like a little tip. Similar to indie bookstores, but also slightly different, library programming often will drive what books they actually add to the collection. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So pitching yourself to a library for an event like an author talk or something like that oftentimes could also be a little bit of a motivator for them to also stock your books. So again, finding the right person at the library to pitch yourself to can sometimes be a little bit complicated. Sometimes not. I don't know that I've ever met a librarian that wasn't willing to talk or share information, unless you catch them on a bad day, or you start talking about Kindle Unlimited. Maybe they don't like you anymore. But otherwise, yeah, you know. I think the same way we talk about bookstores and other marketing techniques and tactics, libraries love to have people in person. They love to do these types of things. They have separate budgets for that, but oftentimes that budget will help drive which titles they actually add to their catalog afterwards. So I think that's a good one. It's definitely one that you wanted to make sure we talked about as well. 

Lauren: Yeah, I just didn't want us to overlook it. A lot of this is the straightforward efforts that you can make to get your books into any library. Like, you could technically reach out to any library in the country and try to submit your book there. 

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: I did actually see, I saw a couple of people referenced that it's…I think, I want to say it was, was either Joanna Penn or Jane Friedman that referred to it as the domino effect. Where once you get accepted into one library, it's easier to get accepted into other ones. 

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: It kind of opens, like you've proven already that, that at least one library has…

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – decided that you're worthy. And that's, that is like a good key to opening other doors. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: It's also true if you are putting new books out. 

Matt: Oh yeah, I see what you’re saying. 

Lauren: Like, once you've gotten your first book in the library, when the second one comes around, it's a lot easier for you to reach out to the library and be like, hey, just letting you know that my second book's out. Especially if your first book actually did get some circulation in that library. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: You might not even have to reach out to them. They might just have you on their radar at that point. Matt: Is there a way for you to see how many times your book has been checked out from a particular library? 

Lauren: I don't know. 

Matt: Like, I wonder if there's software or something like that, an analytics tool, but if not, I bet you could go to your local library if your book is there and just ask them how many times that book has been checked out. I wonder if they'd be able to give you that. I know they can see it. I just wonder if… I don't see why they wouldn't give you that information. You're not asking for anything personal. 

Lauren: You might be able to find that out. If you're struggling with reaching out without much success to libraries around the country, start locally, start at home. This is going back to that point of, you’re fostering relationships in your local community. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Which can only ever be a good thing for your brand and your career. And that is a great way to foster a good relationship with your local library is to reach out to them and say, hey, I would love to offer to do some kind of programming for you. I am an author. I would love for my book to be a book club book and I'll come in and do a Q&A with the book club. Or I'd love to do a reading, do you do a kid story hour? I would love to come in with my picture book. 

Matt: There's probably some crossover there too. 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: If you had followed these same steps that we'd laid out for your local bookstore and you were able to secure something like that, it's probably easy to then pitch to your local library. Like, hey, I recently did an author talk at Quail Ridge Books and it went really well. And I'd love to do the same thing here and then possibly look at getting my book stocked in. Again, it goes back to like what you said earlier, like there's that recognition or, you know, okay, somebody else has already kind of taken the risk or the chance on this particular author. And it sounds like it went well. They can obviously verify that. And then they'd probably be more willing to set that up with you.

Lauren: For sure. I think that, and that goes back to the credibility point that you made in the beginning. I know for me, when I was the one responsible for setting up local author book signings and events at the store, that would absolutely have been a point in someone's favor. If they said to me, you know, I hosted a talk recently at the Huntington Public Library and fifty people showed up to it. The only question that I would have in that moment then is, are those the same fifty people that you would rely on coming to this and are they likely to come to two events? Did you already exhaust that audience? But other than that, like the fact that the library has already vetted them and approved them is automatically a positive to me. So I absolutely would have been like, oh, okay, that's a point in your favor. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: There's a lot of reasons that I think that reaching out to your local library for some kind of programming or event is a great thing for you. Community building, getting your book into the library, practicing public speaking. If that’s something that you're interested in and you want to start speaking at conferences and events, and you need to have some proof of you giving presentations in order for you to get into those big events, try to set up an event at your local library and have somebody film you there. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Like this is how you build that foundation, how you lay that groundwork for sure. And if it gets your book into a library, that's even better. 

[47:56] - Wrap Up

Lauren: I don't know. What do you think? Anything else? 

Matt: I don't think there is anything else. I think it's pretty straightforward. I think there's so many similarities between getting your book into a library and getting your book into, you know, a bookstore, a local bookstore. I think between this episode and the one on bookstores, I think people should be able to lay out a pretty solid strategy and game plan. 

Lauren: I think so too. I think that the biggest distinction, is – this didn't occur to me until you just said that. I think the biggest distinction between the two of them is that bookstores, they are more interested in you as the author. Unless it is a genre specific bookstore, your appeal and your pitch to them should be focused on you. This is why I'm an expert. This is why you want me in front of an audience. This is how many people I'll bring in. The content of the book is secondary to what you as the author can offer them. It's the reverse for a library. The library is interested in your book, in your content, in what your book, what value your book will bring to their catalog, and who you are is a secondary feature. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But the steps to go through, the best practices and the way to maximize your likelihood of getting accepted, pretty much overlapping between the two.

Matt: It makes sense. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Alright. So like, subscribe, leave a review. 

Lauren: Yeah, please do. 

Matt: Do all those things. 

Lauren: Please do. 

Matt: Send us an email if you want. 

Lauren: Watch us on YouTube. 

Matt: Yeah, you can do that. 

Lauren: Yeah. Check us out on Lulu social media. 

Matt: You can do that too. 

Lauren: Yeah, please do. 

Matt: That'd be great. 

Lauren: Yeah. And come back next week and listen to our next episode. 

Matt: Yep. Later. 

Lauren: Thanks for listening.