Lauren: Breaking news everyone. This just in, live from the Publish & Prosper studio: Print books? Still not dead. And, in fact, very much alive.

Matt: You know what’s very much alive? Is my, my admiration, and how impressed I am, that you were able to do that entire intro with a straight face.

Lauren: Thank you.

Matt: I have felt so cringey to listen to this. I thought at any moment you’re going to crack, you're not going to make it all the way through. Good job.

Lauren: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Matt: But yes, that is, that is the headline. That is breaking news.

Lauren: Sure is.

Matt: According to Pew Research.

Lauren: I mean, it's the best kind of breaking news I've heard so far this year.

Matt: This... well yeah, probably.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: For the – yeah. What are we in, May?

Lauren: It is May.

Matt: It's probably the best –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – news so far in May, you're right.

Lauren: I think so.

[1:13] – Episode Topic Intro

Lauren: Well, welcome back, everyone to another episode of Publish & Prosper. And today we are going to be talking about print books, a topic we've –

Matt: Surprise, surprise.

Lauren: – never done before.

Matt: But before you switch the podcast off and go over to your favorite true crime podcast or something else, you should listen to how we're going to be discussing print books today.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And why.

Lauren: Yes. Because I think this is really important and timely because this information is fairly new.

Matt: Yes. And it's – So this podcast is inspired by some Pew Research that was just released around reading habits of American adults. This was confined to the US for this particular one. But years and years ago, Pew Research, they started including some questions about reading in some surveys they were doing. And they just released some of that data for the survey they did in... I think October of last year.

Lauren: This is results from a survey of a little over 8,000 U.S adults.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: They covered a pretty decent demographic range.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So you know a pretty respectable... what’s the word?

Matt: Swath of people. Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: We’ll obviously link it in the show notes if anyone wants to check it out. Their, their research, their presentation of the research. But we thought we'd talk about it.

Matt: Yeah. Because it's extremely interesting. And anytime I read data like this, I get happy. I feel vindicated.

[3:00] – Presenting the Data and Demographics

Matt: The overarching headline is that, you know, once again, much to the chagrin of a lot of people, print is, in fact, not dead. And still, to this day, is the, the preferred format of readers. Two out of three readers, essentially, choose print. It doesn't mean they don't necessarily also read ebook. But the data is basically 64% of the people surveyed read print books. Or have read a print book. In the last 12 months.

Lauren: Kind of the lead-in question was just, have you read a book in the last twelve months?

Matt: That's how they started –

Lauren: So –

Matt: – the reading questions, yes.

Lauren: Yeah. Which also kind of reassuringly, 75% –

Matt: That’s true, yes.

Lauren: – of respondents –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – said they had. And –

Matt: Yeah. There you go.

Lauren: That's nice to see.

Matt: Let's not bury that one either.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: That, that's – yeah.

Lauren: 75% of the 80,000 adults – 80,000 – 8,000 adults that they surveyed have read a book in the last year. So that's, that's promising.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: And then 64% of them said it was a print book.

Matt: Yes. And 31% said ebook. And 26% said audiobook.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: For all those that are continually beating that drum, or find it weird that I'm anti-ebook, in your face.

Lauren: No notes. That's it.

Matt: No, I'm just kidding. Sort of. Kind of. Not really.

Lauren: No.

Matt: But yeah. Anyways, there's a number of things that, that I think of when I see these. And so immediately I started sort of thinking about these numbers when I read this article the other day. It's important to understand at, at the onset of this: This is readers and reading habits and formats of choice. We're not talking about book sales. So before people go oh blahblahblahblah. But I will tell you this, book sales numbers and percentages also follow somewhat closely. So if you look at book sales and the revenue from formats, it's also very similar in that print books tend to outsell ebooks or audiobooks, almost three to one.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: So, you know, we're talking about readers here and chosen formats and reading. But it's important to understand that the revenue also somewhat follows the same model, to a degree. I was talking to somebody yesterday about this and they were like, well, yeah, but that doesn't account for, you know, books read through libraries. Well, whether it does or it doesn't, that doesn't matter. Because you can get print books through your library and you can get ebooks through your library. And I believe now you can also get audiobooks potentially through some libraries. Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: So.

Lauren: That's – well, and to your point right there, as somebody – Because you know, if I was one of the adults that was surveyed in this, I would have checked off all the above.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: Cause I have read at least one print book, ebook, audiobook –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – in the last twelve months. So –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: I would have been in part of that, all three of those percentages. But when I spend money on books, it is exclusively on print. I use Libby or some of the like digital –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – libraries –

Matt: Digital lending, yeah.

Lauren: – that's, that's where I get my ebooks and audiobooks. And then I buy print copies –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – of the books that I liked, or the books that I know I want to read, the authors I know I want to support, stuff like that. So you're right. I actually, while I am somebody who reads ebooks and listens to audiobooks, the money that I spend on books is exclusively on print. Unless it's something that only is available in digital.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: But even then, like, I – very few and far –

Matt: Which is part of this conversation –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – by the way. Yes.

Lauren: Yes it is.

Matt: So, you know, again, it had me thinking about some of these things. And while this data in and of itself is somewhat interesting and compelling, and for some people it's probably the first time they've heard this. And anytime I've ever told people that print books outsell ebooks or audiobooks, they're like, no, no way, no way. You know, if you're not in the industry, you don't really understand that or believe it. But, you know. So by itself, this data is interesting to me and other people. But then when you sit down and start thinking about some of the other implications of this data, I think that's where things get more interesting and more fun. And so today we were going to talk about – or I wanted to talk about, kind of dragged you into this topic last minute –

Lauren: You did, but I was a, I was a willing –

Matt: Of course.

Lauren: – adventurer on this journey. Cause as soon as you said it, I was like, ooh, yeah.

Matt: But I should – I feel compelled to, to say Lauren had a wonderful topic already lined up for us to record today. Beautiful outline, full on, you know, deck that we use. And I was like, well, how about this?

Lauren: Don't worry, we'll still do that one.

Matt: Yes we will. Yeah.

Lauren: But I think that this is a fun and interesting, for all of us.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: I do also want to talk a little bit about, before we, we start diving in. I want to point out some of the demographic stuff that was included in here, too.

Matt: Yeah. So there's some really interesting statistics and numbers around the demographics of the 8,000 or so people that they talk to. But some of the other, you know, pieces of data as well.

Lauren: Yeah. Because I think that, you know, we've talked recently in an episode about large print editions.

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: And we will –

Matt: Accessibility, and –

Lauren: We will be talking more soon about different types of formats and accessibility formats and stuff like that. And if you're not already convinced on the value of that, one of the first things that they included in this information was that there is a little bit of a, of a split in the format preference for older and younger readers. Americans under 50 tend to gravitate more towards ebooks and audiobooks. Not that that's their go to, but most of the people that responded ebooks and or audiobooks were under 50. Over 50s lean very heavily towards print books.

Matt: Can confirm. As a 51 year old adult male.

Lauren: Which I mean, it makes sense for a lot of reasons. And so if you are exclusively publishing in digital, are you excluding a whole section of your audience?

Matt: More than likely.

Lauren: Probably.

Matt: Not just an age demographic as well.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: I think one of the things that they, they really honed in on was a very large section of the people that they, they surveyed were college graduates. And so some of that data was around them and their reading habits. And 88% of college graduates had read a book in the past year. Which was also comforting.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: As a college graduate, I’d hope that after you graduated, you continued to at least read one book a year, if not more.

Lauren: I hope so.

Matt: But 76% of them had read a print book specifically, one or more print books. 78% of women have read a book in the past year. Also comforting. Compared with 71% of men. Not so great, but I'll be the first to admit, you know, we are typically behind you women in a lot of things. However, what I did like was that women also lead in print readership. So 68% of women had read print books, or read a print book. 60% ebook, and – sorry, 33% ebook.

Lauren: Yeah. Versus the men was –

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: – 60% for ebook and –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – 28% for audiobook.

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: So, yeah, I do think that’s –

Matt: So women definitely like print more.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Although, you know. I'm going to generalize for a minute. I still think there's probably some data that might be a little bit off there. Given maybe some of the demographics or the people that they did interview. With romance being such a strong category right now.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: And single handedly kind of propping the publishing industry up right now, or for the last four years or so. We know that so much of that is ebook, right?

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So we do know for, for certain other outlier types of reasons that ebook is a popular format with women. But I was happy to see that not only are they reading a ton of print books, but more than the men.

Lauren: Well, I think that's – I mean, that's very telling too, to me. Because we know that for a lot of women specifically, ebooks are a more accessible or readily available format. And we do know for sure that that is, there is a spike in romance ebooks access specifically. And yet even knowing that, the fact that we're seeing these numbers for women reading print books –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – like that, that's still is is definitely significant to me.

Matt: Yup. But it –

Lauren: And of course, that applies to fiction and nonfiction. This, this actually did not break down the type of books people were reading. It was just –

Matt: For the most part –

Lauren: The habit –

Matt: That’s right. Yeah.

Lauren: – reading habits and format habits. So, you know, we're lumping all genres together in this.

Matt: I think if you dig deeper in there, there was a little bit around nonfiction versus fiction, but it really didn't go any deeper than that. And I think there was like, one or two very surface level questions around, you know, fiction versus nonfiction. So.

[12:35] – Another Impassioned Argument in Favor of Print Books

Matt: Okay, so. Reading this data and these statistics, it doesn't really surprise you and I, for the most part, it probably doesn't surprise a lot of people who've been in publishing for a while. For me, I instantly start thinking about, okay, what does that mean for what we do and who we are at Lulu and the things that we provide? And quite frankly, the stuff that you and I talk about almost every day. Not just on the podcast, but whether we're at events or answering emails or just, you know, here internally as a group talking about things as a marketing team. You know, our world pretty much revolves around print and print-on-demand and automated fulfillment and things like that. And, to me, there was a bunch of things that that immediately came to mind. We talk to a lot of people who, for one reason or another, they only offer ebook and audiobook, or just starting to do audiobook, but have pretty much primarily been ebooks. Much of that has been because of the ease and convenience of, you know, they crank out a lot of content, it's easy for them to just throw it up on KDP and keep moving. It's a low price point. Yes they're not getting paid much. But, you know, it's, it's almost more of a numbers game for a lot of people. How many can I put out in a year, you know, and keep generating readership. And the unfortunate thing is that that cycle, or that circle, I should say, is exactly that. It's just, you're basically a hamster running in a wheel. You're not getting any customer data. You're not reaping any of the benefits of selling direct. And on top of that, you're not selling the most popular format, as evidenced by this data. So, the question becomes, if almost two thirds of Americans – you know, American adults, Americans in general – are reading physical printed books, why, why aren't you selling them? It's not a question of is there demand for it? There obviously is. Anybody who's made the shift from digital to physical or included physical now as part of their strategy, will tell you they are selling physical print books. And so whether you are going to experiment with adding print into your portfolio or you already have, this is clearly kind of a bit of a wake up call, right? Like there's really no reason why you shouldn't be experimenting with that. You've already got the files. You've, you've put out however many ebooks. The demand is there. The question really comes down to the economics of it, right?

Lauren: Right.

Matt: And again, is it worth it?

Lauren: Well, I, I just think that there's so, like. I mean... We could, we could summarize 95% of the episodes that we've done on this podcast, if not 100% of them, by just saying: if you're not selling print books, this is why you should be. Period. If you are not selling –

Matt: Full stop, yeah.

Lauren: – your print books direct, this is why you should be. Period. And, you know, this episode absolutely falls into that category too. This is just another reason why you – like, if you're not considering, if you're not even considering it. Like, I need you to give me an actual reason why. At this point, like, I want I want an actual email right now telling me why you are not even thinking about...

Matt: Well, because –

Lauren: Selling print.

Matt: – we're usually on the other side of that, right?

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – And I get some of the resistance, even now.

Lauren: Sure.

Matt: Like, you know, if I've got somebody that represents a brand that's telling me I should do something that's clearly also going to benefit their brand. Yeah, okay. Whatever sales guy, keep walking. Like I get it. Of course Matt and Lauren are going to get on here and talk about print and selling direct, because that's what Lulu does. Well, yeah, duh. That's what we get paid to do. But I would hope by now anybody that's listened to more than a couple of these episodes, that you've understood that whether or not Lauren and I worked for Lulu, we would still be talking about books, print books, how authors can sell more books. Our whole existence, at times, especially from a professional level, revolves around helping authors sell more books.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Or publishers, I don't care. Just more books into the hands of people in the world. Right? So now you also have this third party independent data that we've just shared with you. That is not Matt and Lauren going out and surveying people as stewards of Lulu. This is the Pew Research Foundation. These are – this is what they do. They’re third party, objective, independent solicitors of information and data for the rest of the world to use. And that's what the data says.

Lauren: Well, and it's also because it is a third party research center that is doing this, surveying and presenting this information. They're, they're getting a representative sample of people, and a probably unbiased sample of people. We, we professionally and personally tend to surround ourselves with other readers and other –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – people that like physical media and collect... whether it's print books or Funko Pops or Disney memorabilia or whatever, like –

Matt: Tattoos.

Lauren: Definitely that. Physical media. But I like, you know – We can sit here, I can tell stories all day long about my friends that will go out of their way to buy print copies of books and say see, other people do it too. But it's still a biased sampling.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: Because it's still people that like, I'm friends with for a reason.

Matt: We live in our own little microcosm of –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And that's, that's what I was going to say too, is –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – even me personally. Like, everybody knows my bias for print and against ebooks. And even I realized early on after launching my book, like I have to offer this as an ebook. I don't want to, but I have to.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: There are people, legitimately, that wanted to read my book and they don't read – they don't want to a print book. Okay. I need to meet them where they are. It's not about, for me, maximizing another stream of revenue. Although for the rest of you it should be. As an author, your goal should be to sell as many books as possible. And I'm not going to turn the money away. But, you know, for me, it was like, okay. Like, there are people who don't read print. I don't like them, but they exist. I should offer my book in ebook. The opposite is true for all of you out there that have a digital-only approach. I mean, you are legitimately alienating almost two thirds of the readership out there. Think of how much you could grow your readership if you incorporated print into your product mix, you know?

Lauren: Yeah. And that's that's really what this data is telling us. Is even, even the average person, even a layperson who... maybe they, maybe if they genuinely only read one book in the last twelve months. Which like, no shade and no shame, my reading is on a really depressing decline right now, so I'm not negging anybody that hasn't read 150 books in the last year.

Matt: What are you doing lately? Because if you're not reading a lot, and you’re sure as heck not finishing the book that you're writing, what are you, what are you up to these days?

Lauren: Work. Oh, you didn't like that answer, did you?

Matt: I liked how you laughed when you said it, because I don't even know if you believe that answer. Alright, we'll move on.

Lauren: Okay. This – these episodes don't just magically turn themselves into content, you know.

Matt: Sometimes it seems like they do.

Lauren: For you, I'm sure.

Matt: Well, that's fair enough. Yeah.

Lauren: But yeah. No, I, I do think that it's something that is really important just to like, understand the framing of, of yeah, even if it's somebody that's not like Matt and, and very, very staunchly against ebooks, there are still people that are going to gravitate towards print more. And –

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: – clearly, clearly proven. We have the statistics right here that say there are people that are not opposed to and or actively seeking out print books. And if you are not providing those or giving people the option of having print books, you are potentially screwing yourself out of a significant chunk of your potential audience.

Matt: Yeah, and even if you set aside the direct sales bias – which we're going to get into that, of course, don't worry. But again, let's just, let's just take the average person who might only be selling on Amazon. Boo, by the way. And you're only doing digital-only, or you're only doing digital right now. Also boo, by the way. So you've got an ebook on, on Kindle, KDP, whatever. And maybe you've got an audiobook on, on Audible, right? You're not selling direct, so you're relying on that platform for your sales. Okay, fine. You're still alienating buyers. Like, how many people come to Amazon, look for your book. Right? See that it's not offered in print, and click away to something else? Oh, wait. You don't know. You don't know, do you? And so it might only be a handful per month, but it might be a hundred per month.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: A, you have no idea, because Amazon is not going to give you that data. But B, why take that chance?

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: You already have the interior file for that book. You know, converting that epub file back to a Word doc or a PDF that you can create a printed version of it. Expanding the cover from just a single front for the ebook to a full cover. Those are not monumental feats. Those are very easily done. And if you can't do them, it's inexpensively done by somebody else. Give it a shot. That's all you're going to come out of pocket for to try the print book. And see what sells. And maybe you only sell two copies in a month, but maybe you sell another hundred that month. I'm sure most people listening would love an extra hundred copies per month, or fifty copies –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – or twenty copies, or whatever that turns out to be for you, but you'll never know unless you try it.

Lauren: Right. And I mean, if your only hurdle is I'm not sure how to format this, or I don't have the design skills, that's not it's not a good enough reason anymore.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Honestly.

Matt: If you've built a decent following around your content. Define decent however you want. But you know, I've seen on one or two occasions, and I thought this was very clever, where an author has gone to their audience, to their followers on social media, and it was the opposite. They said, hey, listen, you know, I just released this book in print. I'm glad you guys loved it. I'd like to try it as an ebook. Do I have any followers or readers that are versed in converting, you know, a file to an epub and would be willing to do it for me? Like, resources abound. Like, you can find a way to do it. Like, this is not – it's 2026. That excuse doesn't exist anymore.

Lauren: Yes, absolutely. Or just ask. I mean, ask if there's interest. Start there. If you're like, I'm not going to ask my audience for favors right out the gate. Okay, cool. Start with like, hey, I know I'm an ebook, like, pretty much ebook only person out here. And you guys have always been really enthusiastic about buying my ebooks. But would any of you all like print copies? Just do, just do a survey and find out? And then if you get an overwhelming yes, then maybe you start going through the process of okay cool, looks like everybody really wants me to do this. What are my next steps?

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: I got to do this, I got to do this. Anyone have a recommendation for a cover artist they really like? Whatever.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: You might get some volunteers before you even, like, have to ask for them, really.

Matt: Yeah.

[24:36] – Why These Demographics Matter

Matt: So we said we would talk a little bit about the demographics and why it matters. For this particular study, you know, the few demographics they pointed out, and I'm sure there were more, but the ones they pointed out we'll talk about. College graduates, this demographic matters because, you know, for lack of a better way to kind of put it, these are highly educated, in many cases belong to a higher income bracket than non-college graduates, and they are more likely to spend for a premium product. Right? Now again, that's, that's a generalization. But to a degree is also true. We both fall into that bucket of college graduates. Neither of us will think twice about spending good money on books or good money on good books. Or actually, I've spent good money on bad books too, but.

Lauren: Sure have.

Matt: It's, it's extremely helpful to understand these types of demographics. And again, when you're thinking about taking the risk of not only adding print into your product mix, but hopefully also direct sales if you're not already, there's always that fear of will somebody buy this book in print? Obviously the data says, yeah, duh. And will they buy it directly from me? They will, by the way. Now let's back up a second. College graduates, as a demographic, is very broad.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yes. But nonetheless, we've talked about building personas, understanding your audience demographics, who you're selling to, and how to niche down into those. Right? Not niche down, right?

Lauren: This is the only time I will agree with you.

Matt: Yeah, I love it.

Lauren: In that very specific usage.

Matt: How to niche down into those demographics –

Lauren: How to niche down into your preferred niche.

Matt: Boo. Ew. That's cringey, that's – yeah, that's almost as bad as your newscaster intro.

Lauren: I love it.

Matt: So understanding again that 76% of college educated, or college graduates, have read a print book.

Lauren: Yes. In the last twelve months.

Matt: In the last twelve months.

Lauren: Not –

Matt: Theoretically, they either bought it or checked it out from the library.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Nine times out of ten they probably bought it. You know, this is a box to check amongst those boxes of demographics for your reader audiences, so.

Lauren: Well, and it's also, I think it's very important to emphasize the understanding your, your target audience part of that. Because that is, you're right, college graduates is a very broad and, and kind of covering a wide range of different demographics possible in there. There are some assumptions being made –

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: – some stereotyping being made. But you could probably identify your target audience and say, is it more likely that these are college graduates, less likely that these are college graduates, or probably an even 50/50 –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – odds either way. And if the answer is yes, it's very likely that this group of people all are college graduates. Well, here's evidence that college graduates like print books.

Matt: Yeah. Another demographic was – I almost said dumbographic.

Lauren: Perfect.

Matt: Another demographic, was adults under 30. What they're calling younger readers. So I did not mean to say dumbographic. They showed the highest rates of ebook readership at 41%. And stronger audiobook consumption of around 32%. But 66% of them still read print. So as a, as a demographic of again, under 30 younger readers, what's interesting is for that demographic, they're very much... those three formats and the percentages are a lot closer together. Which shows they're, they're more of, like you, multi-format readers. So again, you know, it's not necessarily choosing one format over the other. Because again, like you, they will read multiple formats. And will still buy the print book. And so if you're one of those sitting back and saying, yeah, but I write for younger readers. Like, and a lot of them maybe aren't college graduates, or yet college graduates. Or, you know, some of this other stuff maybe doesn't apply, because maybe they don't have as much of a, you know, dispensable income or – false, false, false, false. So, you know, the idea that just because you write for younger readers, whether it's YA or, you know, again, you focus on a group that's somewhere in that 25 to 35 range or something like that, you should still try out for the print book alongside your, your ebook and audiobook. Because clearly the data shows they will read it, they want to read it, and they will buy it.

Lauren: I think that is, I think that specific demographic of like, basically 35 and under, the thing that I do where you're a multi-format reader and you will try out, you'll first try out digital content, and then if you like it, you'll buy the print. I think that's like, much more common practice in that age demographic. Because whether it's because they don't have like the really flexible budget to be able to buy every single print book they want, they want to make sure they like it, and then – but then do still like the collectible of owning it and having it.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And I think there's, I think that we're seeing a lot of that. Also reminder that these survey results were eighteen and up. So, you know, this is not including the, the really, really younger –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – readers.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But anecdotally, a trend that we've seen lately is, I keep hearing stories about like Generation Alpha going, not – going so far back to, to print and physical media that they're doing things like asking for iPods.

Matt: Yes. Yeah.

Lauren: Like, and, and – digital cameras are back, and stuff like that. And like, that, I mean, that's. That's still, you know –

Matt: Which is still funny because it's still digital. But –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – to them that's like so analog and so old school.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: You know, it's, it's this anti, you know, phone in their hand, or anti-iPad in their hand, it’s like –

Lauren: It's, it’s unplugging while still –

Matt: Yeah. To them it’s unplugging –

Lauren: – ultimately being –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – yes –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – being technology. But yeah, I think that there is... we are seeing a resurgence in people being interested in like tangible physical media. And we're seeing that especially with some of the younger generations.

Matt: The other thing this signals for you, if you are, you know, selling into this demographic, is that this is the sweet spot for bundling. If you sell direct, which you should be, this is your signal that you should incorporate print and create bundles. You know? This is a, this is a demographic that will spend the money on a bundle. They, they essentially want all three formats.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: You know, maybe they start reading the ebook until the print book shows up in the mail, or you know, whatever. And they use the audiobook in their car when they're driving, or –

Lauren: Which is also, I think, something that a lot of people do that are – I did this a couple weeks ago, I was, when we were coming back from BookCon. It's a little under two hour flight from –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – New York to North Carolina, and I wanted a book. I had my iPad with me, so I was like, what can I download quickly on Libby that I can get the ebook and the audiobook, and I want it to be a book that I own in print at home that's on my like, TBR shelf at home. So that I was – Because I read the ebook on the plane and I didn’t, I knew I wasn't going to finish it, I didn't finish it. When I got home and I was unpacking and I was like, cleaning and doing laundry and everything. I had the audiobook on so I could keep reading. And then when I was finally done with all that, I finished up the book with my print copy. So I literally read the same book in three different formats in the same day. And like, that's not a unique experience. It's not a unique to me experience. I know you guys are are all shaking your heads at me, but I'm telling you –

Matt: I bet there's actually –

Lauren: – that's not a unique to me experience.

Matt: There's probably quite a few people out there that do that.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And even if there are ten people in your audience that would buy that bundle, why not? Why not target it to them? You might be surprised. There might be a hundred, but even if it's just ten, is it really that much more work? If you've already got the content? To just put that bundle together and have that listed on your website too?

Matt: Yeah. I mean, again, it's such an easy, experiment when you're using print-on-demand.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: You know? And automated fulfillment. And it's virtually, you know, nothing but a little bit of your time to do this. Again, it's not like you have to go and order 500 copies up front, get them shipped to you, and then you fulfill them out of your garage, or something like that. It's, it's whatever time it takes for you to take your ebook file and turn it into a print book file. And for those of us that have done it, that doesn't take long. And if you, if you don't know how to do it, you know, you still already have files. It's inexpensive to have those files converted. But you can always start with your, you know, your follower base. The point here is, you know, whatever excuses you've been using until now to not offer your books in print. They're gone. The data there is there to support that people want and do purchase and enjoy reading print books. Right? Two out of every three readers, more than ebook and audiobook. And the tools exist. They’re, they're there already. It's, it's not rocket science to do this anymore. It's not hard at all, you know? So there's not really any excuses, at this point, to not try it. Like, you should try it. If you need help, reach out to us or, you know, go to our YouTube channel. We have plenty of resources. Go to our blog. There's, there's, there's no shortage of resources that the marketing team at Lulu here has or has not created for this. Like, it's simple.

[35:11] – Selling Your Print Books Direct

Matt: I think the last thing to really tie everything together is, again, you know, you should be tapping into this market of print book readers and buyers. 100% if you're not already, you should. But more importantly, if you're not selling direct yet, that’s really where all of this comes together. That's the the four way stop, the convergence of where all of these things will meet in the middle and form, like the ultimate sort of book sales experience for you and your, your readers. So, yes, you can do one without the other. You should absolutely incorporate print, but you should also absolutely incorporate direct sales. It's a great time to try to direct sales while launching a print version of your book.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And vice versa, right? Like, there's no better time. Like, to make that move to get off rented land, like we've talked about so many times, if you're still in that camper, you've not done it yet. No reason not to now. Like this is the best, the best time to try it.

Lauren: Especially if you at any point during this, like, experiment or thought process or whatever, involved your audience in any way. If you have already done the thing where you surveyed them or reached out or did a test for interest or engagement or anything like that –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – this is the perfect opportunity to ask them to buy directly from you. Then you can also get their email addresses. You can remarket to them. You can do all these – you can build community from this, you can build – we just did a whole episode on leaning into your readers and fans –

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: – for support and sales and engagement and whatever else is going on.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: This is another area of that. This is the perfect opportunity for you to say, hey, I want you to support me. I heard you guys asking for print books. Here it is. It's available only on my website. Come get it.

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: And they will. They will.

Matt: I think most of you would be surprised at how many people would support that.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah, I think. A little bit of a sidestep here, but I do think there is an element of, of, you know... I'm not sure how to diplomatically put it, but I do think there's an element of work involved in, in setting up a direct sales channel where people are just like, I'm not going to bother.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Some of them don't even know the level of effort involved, because at this point it's little. Some of them do and they're just not willing to do it. But I just think that, you know, again. With how little the level of effort can be, the technology that's there, what we what we provide, your ability to tap into a new audience, sell more books, right? Spend more time writing books instead of doing some of the other stuff that you would be doing if you didn't have a direct sale channel, necessarily. Like, that's just wild to me. And I'll go ahead and tease out the fact that we'll be releasing something in July that makes it even easier. No brainer, like, single click and you're selling direct. On the heels of this episode, very soon after this episode drops, you will not have any reason not to try to direct sales. Like you could be the laziest, most non-tech-savvy person on the planet, and we will very soon have a solution for you.

Lauren: That was a pretty big tease you guys. That might have, that might, that might be breaking news actually, I don't know...

Matt: No, don't do your –

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: – newscaster thing again. I can't, I can't go through another round of that.

Lauren: No no no, I won’t.

Matt: Like.

Lauren: I won't.

Matt: We're not going to cap this thing off of that.

Lauren: I won't. But I – yes. Absolutely 100% there are existing solutions already. We, we have done an episode recently on kind of bridges from, like, third party retailers to...

Matt: Sure. Yeah.

Lauren: And, and there are even more solutions that will be available soon.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So.

Matt: And again, like I said, I get it. Like some people, they just don't, they don't want to mess with it. And you know, there are parts of selling direct that can get a little hairy if, if you don't do some extra research around, you know, shipping, or taxes, like I understand it. Like, we're not, we're not so cavalier to suggest like, there's no, you know, resistance or, you know, headwinds that could potentially slow you down there. But, you know, those are all surmountable. But again, there'll be an easier solution coming.

[39:41] – The Value of Objective Data

Matt: So, yeah, I just, you know, when you see data like this... To me, it feels good. I love to see this kind of stuff. I love it even more when it comes from a non-industry, third party objective source. And we don't get a lot of that, by the way.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: In the publishing industry it's really hard for us to get objective data to begin with. For most of you, when you see sales data or any kind of publishing data in general, it typically comes from Bowker. Which is all based on ISBN usage and purchases, and the metadata associated with those ISBNs. And so what happens is, you know, publishers, publishing companies, authors, whoever they by ISBN to go with their books, their titles. As those books sell, those ISBN sales are reported back up to Nielsen and Bowker and others. And so most of the data we get in the publishing industry in general is all based off of ISBNs, and the sales of those ISBNs, and not – that's not even a full retail picture, by the way. You know? Retail sales are only reported off of the major retailers. You're not even getting –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – indie bookstores, for the most part. You're not even getting, you know, Amazon stuff gets reported separately when it gets reported. And who knows how accurate that is. Bezos is too busy buying rockets and Met Galas and yachts and stuff like that. So. It's nice to get third party objective data around things.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Especially stuff that's a little more, you know, on the outskirts of... it's not, you know, it's not publishing book sales data. This is reader data. This is, you know, persona data. This is about kind of the ancillary stuff that goes along with it.

Lauren: There’s always going to be bias in information that comes out of the re- out of the republishing industry? I don’t – out of the publishing industry, because it's self-reported and self-referential by people that are a part of the industry that they're surveying and or reporting on. So to have that unbiased, like unilaterally, outside of the industry information is, is interesting. So even if you are somebody that you're like, I'm already selling print books, I'm already selling direct. None of this was new to me. First of all, I don't know how you got this far in this episode, but congrats. But if, if for no other reason, this is continued validation of the fact that you're doing the right thing. If you are struggling with any part of it and you needed that push to be like, hey, this is, this is worth it. This is worth getting over these hurdles, or figuring out how to smooth out this bump in the road, or whatever is going on here. Keep doing what you're doing. Because it's, it's clearly working and it's clearly not going – And we, we, we didn't really get into this and we, we won't. But included in the, the article with this data was previous years data.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: Not, they don't do it, they don't do this annually. But they did have some pre- So you can also see how these numbers have changed over the years.

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: And trends in this.

Matt: There is a graph of trending – yes.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Which I think is interesting because it proves the longevity of some of this stuff.

Matt: Yes. Yeah.

Lauren: And that's worth knowing too. Cause you don't want to do something – if, if one of your hesitations or reasons for not doing print is like, well, print is on the decline. So what's the point in doing all this work now? In a year from now, everyone's going to be reading exclusively ebooks. They're not.

Matt: That's actually something we do here, too. You know... What I spoke of earlier, industry data. That's part of the problem. So obviously we get book sales data every month. Anybody in the industry does. That data is specifically tied back to, again, you know, sales of ISBN numbers at major retailers and some other places. And it's typically tied to the, the traditional five publishers and their imprints. And so that data actually isn't very representative of the people that typically might use, you know, us or some of the other platforms or that might be listening to this podcast. And so taking that sales data – which if you look at that sales data, print sales have declined by like 1 or 2% year over year. But you're talking about the declining of print sales within those top five big publishers at a handful of major retailers. You're not talking about print book sales in general. Because I can tell you right now from Lulu's data, print book sales have been increasing year over year, for the last seven years straight. At a double digit pace. I'm sure the same may or may not be said for other imprints and or, you know, publishing platforms and things like that. So you have to be very cognizant of where your data is coming from. But in relation to trending... Yeah, if you look at the trending that was included in this Pew Research article, it would look like – and it looked like to me – that ebook and audiobook usage, or readership, I should say, was kind of plateauing, almost kind of going flat over the last couple of years. And one would say that the print, you know, trend line also looked at times like it was maybe flattening out or maybe even dip in a little bit and then flattening out again. But the fact still remains that's readership. And again, you're talking about a trend line for print, by the way, which is three times higher up on that graph than the ebook one.

Lauren: It is.

Matt: And the fact still remains, that's third party readership data. It's a lot more trustworthy than some very specific industry data coming from a handful of big box retailers that are only reporting the ISBN number sales for top five publishers and their imprints. So, you know, you really have to look at the data that's being presented in front of you to make the best decisions about what you want to do for your books and your book business.

Lauren: That is such a good point, honestly. The fact that so much of that sales data is exclusively from the big retailers and the big publishers.

Matt: A hundred percent.

Lauren: And we know, we know for a fact that we are seeing more and more authors and creators turning towards direct sales, self-publishing, hybrid publishing.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: We've talked about this several times over the last few months. So absolutely, those would be – I can't think of the word for it, but – diametrically opposed trajectories, the more people are, are choosing to go their own way and sell print, direct or self-publishing it.

Matt: And you're not going to see that data.

Lauren: That data is, is not – it's not disappearing. The, the print sales aren't disappearing. It's just not being reported anymore. So of course it’s –

Matt: We have that data.

Lauren: – trending down. Well, yes.

Matt: And we’ll share with you.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: I just did.

Lauren: That's true.

Matt: But yeah –

Lauren: But yeah, that's a great point.

Matt: Yeah. It's again, you got to look at where your data’s from. And that's why I said earlier, like, getting third party objective data from, you know, a resource that's not in the publishing industry... You know, whether it's on sales revenue, or readership, or anything else for that matter. That's like gold for us, because we don't get that very often. And so again, that's why I was like, oh, I really want to talk about this. And I'd like to to better understand what this means. And almost, you know, really talk about what the, the actual implications of this data could mean for people who are not caught up in that other macrocosm of, of, you know, traditional top five publishing. But they're more where we're at, down here on this level of like, I'm ready to make my own money, do my own thing, grow my own brand, and have longevity, and get out of the cubicle I work in every single day and just sell more books. You know? This is the data that I think matters for that kind of stuff.

[47:42] – Episode Wrap Up

Matt: What are you reading right now? Speaking of books. Are you reading anything right now?

Lauren: Oh my God, what am I reading right now?

Matt: I don’t know, that's what I asked you.

Lauren: Oh, that's such a grim reality. I – so I am, I am between books right now, and it's because I've been using a lot of my free time to work on my personal project that I am still working on.

Matt: One of your personal projects?

Lauren: One of – not my passport. We'll talk about it soon. I'm getting close to the point where we can talk about it on the podcast, but. But I've been, a lot of my free time has gone towards that and not reading. But I think the last book that I read that I really loved was Star Shipped by Cat Sebastian. So.

Matt: You told me about that, yeah.

Lauren: Take that as my, take that as my recommendation.

Matt: That’s the, that’s the Kirk and Spock one, right?

Lauren: Yes it is.

Matt: Yeah. I just finished... Well, last week I finished. So Strange Pictures, by Uketsu, was the first one, right?

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: The second one was Strange Buildings, so I just finished that.

Lauren: These are the ones that you got in, when we were in London?

Matt: One of them, yeah.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: And then I just started another book by Seishi Yokomizo. I'm really stuck on –

Lauren: I know.

Matt: – on his books. And thankfully, Pushkin has continued to acquire the rights to his, his stories and translate them and put them out at a pace that is, you know, suitable for me.

Lauren: I mean, I'm impressed. I'm impressed that you haven't burned through all them yet. And I know it's because that they're putting them out slowly –

Matt: I'm slowing myself down by, like, reading some of the other ones that have been on my TBR that I have on my shelf. Yeah.

Lauren: That's fair.

Matt: Yeah. Because I don’t – I hate when you, and I know you know this feeling, when you get to the end and it's like... but I know there's more out there they’re just not ready yet. Like, come on. And so rather than get to that point, move on and then, you know, have that huge lag time, I'm starting to try and space them out. So I have one more of his left on my shelf to read. But I have a bunch of other stuff I can read in the meantime.

Lauren: This is this is absolutely, like one of my hard and fast rules at this point, as a reader and as somebody who just doesn't have the time to read as much as I used to. I will not read incomplete series. I won't read series when they're in progress. I will wait until all of the books are out, and then I will read them. Because I just, I'm at the point now where I'm like, if, if it takes two years for you to publish the next, the book and the next book in the series –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – I don't remember what happened in the first one, and I have to go back. And the longer the series –

Matt: Same.

Lauren: – get, the more I have to reread.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So I always have that. Like, not that I, not that I'm reading books that are translated, so I'm like, waiting for that. But I know that there are a bunch of books out there that I'm like, I want to read that, I'm just waiting for the series to be finished.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So there is that like, oh, someday I'll get, someday I'll get to read this. And I know that's a self-imposed limitation, but I stand by it.

Matt: I do the same thing. The – 

Lauren: I can't, I just can't. I don't have the time for it anymore.

Matt: I was –

Lauren: I wanna read –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But now I will say, for anyone who's listening and is like, this is a whole episode about print books and you're telling about, you're telling us about how you're just leaving all this stuff to waste. When it's a series that I know for sure I'm going to read this someday, I'm just waiting for it to be done. I will buy the first one in the series so that I have it as like a –

Matt: I’ll buy them, I just won't start reading them.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I’ll absolutely buy them –

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: – when they come out. 100% Even if it's known like this is the first of three, the other two are not – I'll still buy it. I just won't start reading it yet.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: So yeah, for sure there are a ton of books on my bookshelf right now where I know there are more coming.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: So I haven't started them, but.

Lauren: But I will still buy the first one so that I have it there.

Matt: Absolutely.

Lauren: So I can just be like, alright, you know, someday. Someday I'll get to buy the whole – And of course, by then they'll have been repackaged and I'll have to rebuy the first one anyway.

Matt: Same.

Lauren: But whatever.

Matt: Yeah, I don't care.

Lauren: Doesn’t matter. It's fine.

Matt: Yeah. When we were in London there were different versions of, of those Uketsu books, and I had to get those.

Lauren: Of course you do.

Matt: But whatever.

Lauren: Bunch of print nerds.

Matt: Yup. Alright, let's wrap this thing up.

Lauren: Alright, let's get out of here.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. Sell print.

Matt: Yes. Sell print. Very good. Done.

Lauren: Sell print direct.

Matt: No notes.

Lauren: And do all the things.

Matt: Look for data that you feel like you can trust –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – when you are looking for data. We'll always try to bring you as objective data as we can. It's not always possible, but... Yeah, I just think that it was important to talk about the fact that so many people, I think, gloss over the fact that print is such a strong force. Because we just get locked in our own little microcosms of, of where we live, who we hang out with, who we associate with, who we talk about books with. And, you know, oftentimes we forget there's this whole other side of the world, you know, of, of readership where that's their choice. And if you are in it for the long haul as an author, or as a creator, as a publisher, you should be meeting people where they they want to read and providing the formats that they want. And clearly the data shows people want print books. Still. To this day. It's not dead. The sky's not falling. So like Lauren said, do it.

Lauren: Do it. The, the barriers to entry on that are getting fewer and fewer.

Matt: They're gone.

Lauren: And more or less gone.

Matt: They're gone. Let's just call it what it is.

Lauren: You are running out of reasons to not try it.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So just try it.

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: And let us know how it goes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: You can do that by leaving comments on Lulu’s social media or on our YouTube or Spotify episodes. You can email us a podcast@lulu.com. I will be awaiting your emails explaining to me why you –

Matt: On baited breath.

Lauren: – are not yet convinced that print is – What, tell me what I have to do to convince you that print is, is at least worth trying.

Matt: I'd love to see some of those responses.

Lauren: Yeah, let me know.

Matt: Alright.

Lauren: And then come back next week for another new episode. Maybe this time it'll be the one that we planned to do.

Matt: Maybe. We’ll see.

Lauren: Or maybe it'll be something else completely off the rails.

Matt: Who knows?

Lauren: You got to come back and find out.

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: Until then, thanks for listening.

Matt: Alright. Later.