Lauren: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Publish & Prosper. And today I am very excited to be joined by a brand new face in the studio. Not new to Lulu, but new to this podcast, which is always a treat. Everyone welcome Nick Foster.

Nick: Thank you for having me.

Lauren: Thank you for being willing to join me.

Nick: Yeah, I feel very honored to, to have this opportunity.

Lauren: It is an honor. You are correct about that.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: And this is also fun because we're branching out a little bit. A lot of the people that you all have met so far on this podcast have been from the marketing team, and Nick is not on the marketing team.

Nick: No I am not.

[1:06] – Introducing Nick Foster

Lauren: What is your job here at Lulu?

Nick: So I'm the Vice President of Software and Product Development. My entire role is I run our software development team and our product management team. So a lot of the things that you see and interact with on our website, our team is the one who builds it.

Lauren: They sure are.

Nick: Really I am trying to set the roadmap for what we are building and planning to build. And then I'm coordinating with our product teams to - not just our product teams, but across the company - to kind of come up with what that looks like. How it's going to work, how it's going to be designed. And then working with our software teams and, and basically, you know, planning out what that scope of work ultimately will look like for us to build. And, you know, along the way, we do a lot of discussions and, you know, coming up with ideas and trying to validate them to the best of our ability. You know, I don't think anybody in the product and software development world can say I know for a fact this is what needs to be built. There's always a little bit of doubt. But we do our best to try to come up with something we think is going to make our users have the best benefit when they're using Lulu.

Lauren: Cool. We are going to dig more into that –

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: – for sure later, because I'm so curious about that. And I feel like it's something that our listeners will be interested in too. And like, you know, how ideas A., like, are born and B. eventually come to life.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: Or maybe die in a graveyard somewhere. You never know.

Nick: It happens all the time.

Lauren: I'm sure it does. I'm sure that's something that a lot of the creatives in our audience can relate to, is the idea of having something that, that feels like you're on to something, and you, you work on it for X amount of time and ultimately realize that it's actually not, not viable. So we're gonna, we're gonna –

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: – dig into that –

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: – for sure.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. But before we do that, how did you get here?

Nick: My journey to Lulu came via acquisition. So I was working for a company called Replay Photos. And they were... they were located here in the, the Triangle area of Raleigh. And, you know, the leadership at Lulu at that time felt that there was a good fit for what they were trying to do, and they bought our company, and all the people with Replay Photos came over. You know, since then it just didn't work out over the years. And I did a lot of licensing, collegiate licensing and professional sports licensing in that role. Really boring stuff. Not fun. Asking a lot of permission and getting no a lot, and then having to be the guy that said no a lot. But over the course of these thirteen years, my role sort of evolved in a variety of ways, and I always liked and gravitated towards technology. And so, you know, I got an opportunity to to do some things and... And actually, you know, for those who have used our Print API, that's actually the first thing that I created from any sort of product level. And that itself was a journey, because I wasn't at that point very technical. I didn't even know what an API was. And I would say it's one of our more successful product offerings, from a business to business perspective. And I'm really proud of where it's at and and how we've been able to evolve it over the last couple years. And then that just kind of continued to snowball, where my responsibilities got more and more in product and... And then they, the powers that be, decided that I should run the software team as well.

Lauren: Sure. Why not?

Nick: It was. No, it's great. You know, I love, I love our team. And we have a lot of fun together, and we, we solve a lot of interesting problems together. So it just made sense, you know, because I was already sort of managing them. In that.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: Just unofficially. And now it's official.

Lauren: Yeah. Well it makes sense.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: And you, you work with Christoph too, who has been –

Nick: Yes.

Lauren: – on –

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: – the podcast. He's been a guest earlier this year on the podcast.

Nick: Yeah. Christoph is my boss. He yells with me every single day. No, I don't think

Lauren: That’s hard to imagine.

Nick: I don't know if Christoph has ever yelled at me. Maybe once. But not in a bad way. In a teaching way.

Lauren: Yes.

Nick: As I, as I tell my kids.

Lauren: That's. That's good. That's important.

Nick: Yeah.

[5:42] – Recognizing the Parallels Between Creators and Developers

Lauren: But I do think that that's kind of a really interesting trajectory. And I think that there is... well first of all, I think there's a lot of overlap between our audience and the, the technical side of Lulu in general, because like I was saying, like, you know, the concept of something having to go from... just had this interesting idea. Is it an idea? Is this viable? Can I, can I take this to market? Can I, is it even possible? And I think there is a lot of overlap in not necessarily the approach to that, but in how, how people sit down and say, okay.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: I see an opportunity for us to create something that people want, that people have been asking for, that will be making some part of this experience easier for our customers, our consumers, our readers. Let's see if we can make it happen.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: And just two different teams taking two different approaches to get there. And I think it's kind of fun.

Nick: It is two different approaches but it's also coordination. Right?

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: A lot of it, you know, when we're developing something new for the marketplace you also have to have a go to market strategy. And this is where I rely on the, the marketing team a lot, because I am not a marketer. I'm not a self-promoter, you know? And, and you guys are much better at that than I am. I can kind of create the idea. And you guys can can sell the idea.

Lauren: Exactly.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: And I can, I can create the idea, but I don't know how to create it. I can sit here and say you know what would be really cool?

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: XYZ. And, and then you tell me that's physically impossible to do but, but thank you for the idea. Or you say sure, let's see if we can test it and

Nick: Right, right.

Lauren: – and see, see how it, if it's possible.

Nick: Nothing. Nothing is physically impossible in –

Lauren: Well.

Nick: – the technology world unless we start getting into like, quantum physics and mechanics. But, you know, there's trade-offs.

Lauren: Alright, slow down Ant-Man.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: It’s fine.

Nick: There's, there's a lot of trade-offs. How much effort goes into it, you know?

Lauren: Yes. Yes. And I think that's also something that we'll talk a little bit more about. But, you know, just... there is a lot to weigh. There is a lot to decide. In, in any creative endeavor. And I would absolutely argue that developing a product or tech or a feature is a creative endeavor.

Nick: A thousand, a thousand percent. I mean, I would, I would say, you know, for all the creators that are out there listening or using our platform, you know... our, our paths are very parallel. You know you are, you are coming up with an idea for your business, and you are sort of working behind the scenes, developing that idea and validating it, and trying to see if there's a fit for what you, what your goal is as an organization or as an entrepreneur. And then, you know, along the way, there's there's always things, you know. There's, there's the roadblocks, there's the successes, there's the wins, and then there's sometimes there's just the, the misses and the failures. And, and and what I've learned over the years is you have to, you have to be able to live with those. And I think those help people grow stronger as individuals, in having some of those failures. I mean there's, there are things that we have created over the years that hasn't been, you know, a runaway success, and it eats at you. But when you learn to accept it, it's okay. And you just pick yourself back up and you get right back on the path.

Lauren: Yeah. Are you, are you familiar with the the concept of kill your darlings?

Nick: No.

Lauren: It's basically the idea of sometimes like the, the difference between a good writer and a great writer or a good editor and a great editor is recognizing when even if you love something, even if you're like, this is the best sentence I've ever written... Sometimes it's not the right fit for where it is.

Nick: Okay.

Lauren: And you have to...

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: You have to sometimes bite the bullet and kill your darlings.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: Just because it was a good idea doesn't mean that it works in practice.

Nick: And that makes sense. I mean, obviously, even from a product perspective you, you can have an idea that may not... it, it may be too early, right? It's not the right time for it. And I think we're going to talk about one in a little bit.

Lauren: Okay.

Nick: And this has been one that has been just kind of rattling around my brain for, for literally years.

Lauren: I love this.

Nick: And now was the right time.

Lauren: Alright. Ooh I'm excited for that. Okay.

[10:23] – Empowering Customers with Lulu Technology

Lauren: I want to talk a little bit about when we had Christoph on - If everyone listening has not listened to that episode, I'll link it in the show notes. It was earlier this year. Great episode. He's so fun to listen to.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: I can listen to him talk for hours. But he and I talked kind of about the the efforts that we've been making internally as well as externally to, to kind of... not reposition Lulu, because realistically we've always been a publishing technology company.

Nick: Yes.

Lauren: But kind of shift both the internal mindset and the external perception –

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: – of Lulu, more in that direction. But I think that your team was probably uniquely qualified within this mindset shift, where you might have already been thinking about Lulu as a technology company.

Nick: Yeah. I mean.

Lauren: Okay.

Nick: We're, you know, our team is elbows deep in the, in the technology side of it, in the product side of it. So of course we feel like it's a technology company.

Lauren: Right.

Nick: I think, you know, what we have been able to accomplish over the past six years is really solidify that. Especially when we, you know, relaunched the platform. And, and kind of got it away from the old legacy platform that was really holding Lulu back from advancing as a technology company. And now we have this great foundation that's, that's new, that we are able to build on, and really kind of flex the technological muscles that our team is capable of doing. And, you know, to your point I think, I think deep down everybody sort of knew, you know, it's a, it's a technology company. Every - we just had to come to accept it.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: And realize it. And, and I understand, you know, the, the original mindset was, you know, self-publishing. But when you really step back and look at it, ultimately what we're doing is we're, we are helping individuals, or even businesses, accomplish, you know, some sort of business opportunity from a revenue perspective. By giving them the ability to take their content, turn it into a good that they could then sell and make available to their audience. And that's, and that's where I think Lulu really shines the most. I mean on, on the... when you really look at it, what is, what is Lulu's main purpose? You know, the creators and the customers are, they're writing the content. They're creating the content. They're using us to turn it into a physical product. And they're using us to connect to their outlets on where they want to sell it. We're really about enabling our creators to take their content and sell it to their audience almost anywhere that they want to sell it and monetize it. That's, that's really where, you know, that self-publishing detour is no longer valid.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: You know, we are, we're really more of a infrastructure and connector, connector tool.

Lauren: Yeah. I absolutely think that the more, the more that I've sat with it and the more that I've actually practiced the idea of thinking about it that way, the more I'm like, oh, this makes perfect sense. This is actually so much - But I'm assuming that your team did not have that same hurdle to, to get over.

Nick: Well.

Lauren: Because you were –

Nick: I mean

Lauren: – already kind of going that way.

Nick: No, I mean.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: What was, you know, think back to the first product that I had a hand in at Lulu, was our Print API has nothing to do with publishing. It literally has everything to do with giving people a platform where they can connect with us, to be able to connect into their systems for printing and shipping their books almost anywhere in the world. And it leverages our technologies and our, and our print network.

Lauren: So would you say that that's the perspective that your whole team kind of brings to it? Is more of that, like, how to, how to bring technology to the market?

Nick: Not, not so much to bring technology to, to the market, but how to leverage technology, right? I mean, Lulu is over 20 years old. When Lulu first got started, it was wasn't easy for people to get a website.

Lauren: Right.

Nick: You know? The web was more closed in that regard. I mean, outside of, you know, WordPress, you would have to hire a developer and someone to create a website for you. And, you know, over the past ten years that has changed. Where you have tools like Squarespace, Wix, Shopify, not only giving people really easy platforms to create their own websites, but also tying in the ecommerce side of that. And all, all we've really been able to do, all we've really done, is tap into that. So we're, we're kind of coupling the technology that's, that's out there, looking at the landscape of emerging technologies, and then seeing how, how does that fit with our customer base.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: I mean it's, at this point it's less about showing them the door of where that opportunity lives and how they can do it and more saying let's, let's actually help you cultivate what you have and, and really help you turn it into that business. Because all the tooling is out there. You know? Whether it's Lulu or anyone else, like, the tools are out there. It's just how, how could we get, how – what tools for them are the fit?

Lauren: Right.

Nick: You know, based on their workflows and what they're currently using.

Lauren: Right.

[16:24] – Developing Different Stages of Publishing Technology

Lauren: Which is partially why we are continuing to develop new tools, and new ways that, that people can use the tools that we already have, that already exist.

Nick: One hundred percent. I mean, you know, if we talk about the journey of Lulu Direct... You know, the first one, the first connection that we, we created was with Shopify. And again, Shopify at that point was still really starting to, to pick up and grow as a, as a company. And, and that success, you know, validated the thinking of, you know we, we need to be in that space where we're connecting to where people are selling. Because there is an appetite from customers to sell and be their own business, right? And not have to go through these big legacy, you know, platforms and ERPs and all of that, like, and inventory and warehousing and all of that. Like nobody, nobody as a startup or even as a small business or medium sized business, want to deal with any of that. And then, you know, we we then out out of that spun up, you know, our connection with Wix, our connection with WooCommerce. We then took a step back and really evaluated the rest of the landscape. And, you know, between those three, that's a really good representation of, of the, the ecommerce platforms that the majority of people are using. At least, you know, in, in the US. But then we, we created our Order Import tool. Because we, we recognize and we acknowledge like, people are using other platforms. And, and honestly, if you go and you Google like, ecommerce platforms I can sell on. Like, I can almost guarantee you ten years ago it was like PayPal and Shopify. And then Amazon, ew gross. But then

Lauren: It’s like Matt’s sitting here with us.

Nick: Yeah. But, but now if you do it you're gonna get pages of options. So it's, it's now you went from a very nascent market to a oversaturated market. And, and we're a small team. We can't connect to everybody.

Lauren: Right.

Nick: Because it does create a lot of overhead and maintenance. So the Order Import tool was built to sort of be this agnostic tool for, for people who are selling through places... you know. Even Kickstarter, for instance. Like, people sell a lot through Kickstarter and come to us and use our Order Import tool, because they use us for the fulfillment. So anywhere you're selling that, if it's not one of those three connections, you can still use our Order Import tool. We're agnostic to the platform. And we have some pretty cool features in there that will actually tell your customers when it's shipped, if you want, etc.. So it's, it's really, it is really interesting how we're... where we are evolving it. And, and you know, the philosophy for, for me is we, we want to be as agnostic to platforms as possible/ Because that's... we, we don't feel it makes sense to lock into specific ones.

Lauren: Right.

Nick: And, and we want people to be able to use us wherever they are.

Lauren: Well I mean, it also - that's kind of one of the, the core principles that Lulu was built on in the first place. Is this idea, you know, coming from Bob Young and the open source access to Red Hat's technology

Nick: Right.

Lauren: – and everything there was... Yeah, we have the tools here. If you can figure out a way to make them work for you, we're not going to limit what you're able to do with them.

Nick: Exactly.

Lauren: Which I think is really cool. And I mean, even to the point you were making earlier about sometimes you have to realize that an idea didn't come to fruition. I think one of the things that we also see a lot is when when people - we put something out into market, and people immediately start using it in a way we didn't expect them to.

Nick: Oh yeah.

Lauren: Which is a cool thing.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: That's never a bad thing.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: But, but it is cool to see when like we, we put something out - like the Order Import tool. When we first put it out, we had some ideas in mind, like use cases in mind. Like as the marketing team, we had some like ideas for this is what we'll tell people they can use it for. And then some of the first few things we saw people doing with it were not on that list of ideas.

Nick: Right. Right. Yeah. And that's, and that's interesting. And that's, you know, part of product development. Like we... I’ll admit, if, if you're in product development and you say you have all the answers...do you? Do you? So we don't have all the answers. What we, what we do when we're kind of developing an idea is we're, we're trying to maximize the, the key use cases for our users, right? Like, it's very hard for any company - not just technology, but any company at all - to create something and build something that is individualized for every single person. Like think of that The Simpsons episode where Homer, like, built the car, right? He's like, he built it for himself. No one else is buying that car. We, we try to build something that we think is gonna, you know, cover 80% of what most people would use. And then, and then to your point, when people start getting into it and using it and we start finding new use cases, then we can start to evolve it and tweak it to really – Okay, like this idea. Like I think, you know, to your point, we found a lot of people were using the Order Import tool for pre-sales.

Lauren: Yes.

Nick: And that was not something that I don't think anybody in the organization really thought of as a, as a use case. But then they started using that way and we're like... oh. Yeah. Why didn't we think of that? Like well of course, it's literally –

Lauren: Yes.

Nick: – right there.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: But, but then we, we can evolve it and help them in that, that space.

Lauren: Yeah. Which I think is just always really cool to see. And it's cool to be able to have that, that kind of freedom in the mindset to be like, okay. You know, somebody wrote up instructions on how to use ThriveCart and the Lulu API. Cool. Somebody else has figured out how to use Zapier to create zaps and plug Lulu into their Etsy storefront.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: Great. Awesome.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: Love to see it.

Nick: Yeah. Even, even in the world of AI, and I don't know if that's a dirty word here or not.

Lauren: Not on this podcast it's not.

Nick: Yeah, okay.

Lauren: You're in Matt's chair, so

Nick: Okay.

Lauren: You're –

Nick: So, so interestingly enough, you know, we have a lot of customers that use our Print API and, you know, about a month ago I was like, searching around on GitHub and came across somebody had created an MCP for our Print API.

Lauren: Really?

Nick: Yeah. And it was, it was hilarious because we were, we were, we're actually talking about creating one on our own. And I was like, oh, somebody’s already done this.

Lauren: That's cool.

Nick: We're going to do our own.

Lauren: Sure.

Nick: Of course. But it's just to your point, like. Our, our platform is there. And I think anytime you have a platform that has a customer base and a following that is so, you know, passionate about it that they're willing to also like, help other people.

Lauren: Yes.

Nick: That, that to me is, is a good - that's, that's, that's good mojo –

Lauren: Yes.

Nick: – for your platform. Because it means you're, you're actually giving, you're providing a service to people that is helpful. You know? We're not providing a service where people just doomscroll. We're providing something that actually can have a major impact on their life.

Lauren: Yes, absolutely. And I think that is one of the things that a lot of the people that work here have in common that have come from from different backgrounds, different career paths, you know, a lot of different roads have led people here. I think in general a lot of us share a passion for like... I want to, I want to help put something creative and good into the world, and I want to help other people bring their ideas to life. I think that's something a lot of us share.

Nick: Yeah. And one thing I, I say with regularity with our team is, is our success is based on our customers’ success.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: And that, to me, is like an ethos that I want our team to adopt. Because it is. Like, we are, we are their... We are providing them a service to, to make their dreams become a reality. And, and what we can offer to them, and what we can build for them to help them... It, it just, it makes everything better. And it's really cool thinking about some of the numbers, right?

Lauren: Yes.

Nick: That, that have come out of that.

Lauren: Yes.

Nick: And to see like, some of the really amazing success stories that people have had where they, you know, they were doing stuff on TikTok and just making little fun videos. And then they, they found our service and they turned it into a book. And now they're, you know, making six, seven figures a year.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: And it's amazing.

Lauren: It is, it is amazing.

Nick: To be able to say we helped. We helped, you know, give them that jump. Now, again. The content is all theirs. Their creativity is all theirs. But we were, we were fundamental in helping them turn it into a business.

Lauren: Yeah. When we see somebody doing something cool like that, I'm like, oh my god.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: I'm like, so excited for them.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: I just, I love that part.

[25:47] – Knowing How and When to Develop Ideas Into Reality

Lauren: But I would love to talk a little bit about internally bringing ideas to life and how you and your team go about the practice.

Nick: Oh, wow.

Lauren: So... as much or as little as you are willing to share.

Nick: This is, this is, there's no there's no recipe for this. I think the biggest, the biggest step for us is turning, turning that idea that somebody comes into and coming up with a really compelling problem statement. Like what is, what is the problem that, that needs to be solved? And, and that, and that then starts to become this, you know, we go down this path of saying okay, is this, is this a, is this a problem that we can solve? You know, when people come to us and say I'm not selling enough books on Amazon, I can't solve that problem for you.

Lauren: Yeah, that is a you problem unfortunately.

Nick: I, yeah.

Lauren: Not a we problem.

Nick: Yeah. The only way you can sell stuff on Amazon now is buy ads –

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: – on Amazon, which is sad.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: But the – but we, we, we look at it that way. We say, you know, is this a problem that we can solve? That we can solve. Is this a problem that we, we need to solve? Again, you know, the Homer car concept of some, some people need something very specific and unique, and it's not something that scales out to a larger audience. And we have, you know, hundreds of thousands of people that use our platform every single day. And so we have to, we have to be able to accommodate that scale. And then from there we start just kind of... coming up with some ideas. And what is it, what is it that we're trying to solve? How can we solve it? You know, and then we, we once we feel very confident about this and we feel like it is something we can do, we just start building it. Designing it. And, and then it's just scheduling and then just heads down building and testing.

Lauren: I've seen a fraction of the, the behind the scenes testing –

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: – and stuff like that. And it's always, I've always been incredibly impressed by even just like some of the sandbox environments that you guys build that are purely just to test. And, and just to, to see the functionality of things and be like, oh wow. I have no idea how you did any of this.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: And this all looks really cool.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: And works really well. And is really cool to see. So not to be a downer on it, but what happens to the ideas that don't make it all the way?

Nick: It depends, right? You know, I, you know, I think sometimes we, we, we get to a point in an idea where we just say this is never gonna work, and we scrap it. Then we have ideas that we get to a point and we say okay, right product, wrong time. And so we, we kind of put it on the shelf for a little bit, and then periodically we'll revisit and say okay is, is now the time? And if it is, we pull it forward and we start working on it. If it's not, we just leave it there. Those are really the two buckets that I would put those in. You know, we're not... there's... we have a huge repository of ideas, right? Of, of a lot of things. And we just do our very best to balance, you know, user needs versus business needs. And, you know, ultimately, like I said before, we're trying to make the most impact to our customers that we can.

Lauren: Do you... do you often find that if - like, an idea that makes it past the concept stage is usually going to make it to market? Like if it's, if it's not going to work, it doesn't really make it to the point where it's even like starting to be developed?

Nick: I mean there, there have definitely, definitely been times where we have started. Hands on keyboards, building something. And then we keep going and it starts to just balloon and balloon and balloon, and then we look at it against the rest of our priorities like... this is, this is definitely not the right time.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: And, and we have to just stop. And that, you know, that's, that's hard. It's hard for the team. Right? They've invested a lot of time to, you know, create the, the definition of what we're trying to build, to design it, to start actually coding it. It's hard for me as well. But, you know, the reality is sometimes just you, you have to, you have to have that mentality of being able to walk away. You know, that sunk cost fallacy.

Lauren: I was literally just going to say those exact three words.

Nick: Yeah, I mean it’s –

Lauren: Like. Yes.

Nick: – it's part of, it's part of that process. You just have to be accepting of that and say, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't make sense to keep just investing into something that's just not working for some reason.

Lauren: Right.

Nick: And you know, we've, we've done this. We've, we've put things in the, in the graveyard before. Even things that have been out, you know, in the public.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: And, you know, these are not easy decisions. By any means. And we have a lot of conversations about them, but. You know, it just, you just gotta, you gotta move on.

Lauren: I think that's a really hard thing to do. And it's a really important thing to do. And especially for, you know, small business owners, content entrepreneurs, authors, writers have that experience all the time. Creatives have that experience all the time. Where you do have to reach that point where you say yes, I've put so much time and effort into this already, it would be a waste to not see it through. But there's also very much the danger that that turns into a black hole.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: And you're just perpetually, like you're putting a never ending amount of time and effort and energy into it and never getting anywhere with it, and the, and everything else suffers for it.

Nick: Right. And I, and I think that that's an important point, right? Because even, even if you're not fully abandoning the idea, if it's not working... at least, at least you're, you're taking a step back, right? And there, and there's been times myself where I've, I've been so gung ho on this, this one feature we want to build for the customers. And we, we start talking about and defining everything and getting it ready. And then, you know, some other stuff comes up and we put it on the backburner. And six months later, I come back to it and I reread what I did and I go, what an idiot. Like, you’re so stupid.

Nick: Like, you've done this all wrong, and this whole other way is just, is so much easier, and it's better for the customer. And that, and that, and that to me is like, to that point, like, you know. Don't sit there and bang your head against a wall to try to force something. Sometimes it's, it just helps to take a step back.

Lauren: Yup.

Nick: Let it, let it exit your mind for a while. And then you revisit it. And then you might actually find that it clicks.

Lauren: Yep. I am, I'm a very big advocate for putting things on the backburner and letting them simmer. Because I absolutely agree. Sometimes taking that step back - it's so humbling, but also a little bit satisfying.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: When you look at something that you're like, what was I thinking?

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: Like.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: And not even in a you're so stupid, this is a terrible idea way. But like, oh man, there's a really obvious better way to do this.

Nick: Yes.

Lauren: And with time and with space and with things that I've learned in the last six months that I didn't know six months ago, I now see the path forward on this.

Nick: Right. Yes.

Lauren: And I think that is, I mean, yeah, definitely very humbling, but also really satisfying when that happens.

Nick: It's, it's invigorating.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: Right? Because you, you've, you've felt so much pressure and frustration that you were stuck. And then you walk away. And as long as you, as long as your ego doesn't get in the way, right, and you come back to it. And then all of a sudden... you know? I kind of liken it to writer's block. You're, you're there, you're stuck, you're stuck, you're stuck. Walk away, shelve it for a little bit. And then come back. And then all of a sudden you're like, in this flow state of like, you know, oh my god everything. The whole world is opening up to me right now. And I have just unlocked the path.

Lauren: Yep.

Nick: And it feels so invigorating.

Lauren: It – absolutely it does.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: I'm totally – not, not from a technology or development side of it, but general experience?

Nick: Oh, anything.

Lauren: A hundred percent.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: We – if, if anyone listening has not had that experience, please get in touch with me so I can help you brainstorm some ideas so that you can live that, that incredible just like, rush, genuinely like –

Nick: Right.

Lauren: – that endorphin rush of like, oh my god, it's all coming together.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: Which – and I think also, you know, to the point of some of the things that we were saying earlier with like, like, you know, how much things have changed with ecommerce and stuff like that. Sometimes an idea is simply - it's not your fault. You're not the dumb-dumb for looking at it and not being able to bring it to life. It's just the tools weren't there yet.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: And now they are.

Nick: Right. The tools, the tools weren't there, and now they are. And now you have, you know, a new path forward. And, you know, you can piggyback on those technologies.

Lauren: Yep.

[35:34] – Bringing the Direct Buy Button to Life

Lauren: This was my, my way of, of segueing into the thing that I really want to know more about.

Nick: Oh.

Lauren: That you said. So you said earlier that you had an idea that, that you'd been noodling on. Noodling is my own word, I'm sorry, I'm not putting words in your mouth. You had an idea that you put on the backburner a long time ago, and were waiting for the right time. Do you want to talk more about it?

Nick: Absolutely.

Lauren: Okay.

Nick: Yeah. So it's an interesting. It's an interesting concept. You know, because Lulu has, has given people multiple ways of being able to sell their content. Whether it's through our bookstore, through retail distribution, and then with the advent of the Print API and our Lulu Direct offerings, you know we've, we've opened up even more avenues for them to find their own path. And, you know, one of the things that we had I had been thinking about for a long time was like, okay, like. What, what if people don't want to sell through the bookstore? What if they don't want to operate their own ecommerce? Is there, is there a way for them to, to still be able to speak to their audience, tell their audience that you can buy my content and it's and it's really easy for them to do. And, and this was an idea that that kind of was sitting on the back burner after we launched our, our Shopify app. And, and again, we were at that time like just everybody's so focused on building the new platform. I, you know, had to walk away. I had to say I can't keep spending my time on this. So I walked away.

Lauren: And now, sorry, just for context, that was like 2021 or something, right? Like we – 

Nick: Our Shopify app launched in 2018.

Lauren: Whoa.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: Okay.

Nick: So it's been a while.

Lauren: Sorry.

Nick: It's been a minute.

Lauren: Okay.

Nick: Again.

Lauren: Putting it under the Lulu Direct umbrella was, was post-2020, right?

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: Like the official brand...

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: Okay. But, so you, we’re pre-dating that. You're talking about –

Nick: Right.

Lauren: The, the –

Nick: We're talking about – 

Lauren: – just the Shopify

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: Okay.

Nick: Yep.

Lauren: So this is even longer. Like, you've been percolating this idea –

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: – for even longer than –

Nick: Yes.

Lauren: – than I thought. Okay. Go ahead.

Nick: Yeah. So again, let's fast forward. The response for our Lulu Direct offering has been fantastic. And, and, you know, we have heard some of the feedback very loud and clear. You know, I think, I think there are some, some folks that are a little shy about collecting and remitting sales tax and all that. And I get it.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: That makes sense. You know maybe, maybe it's not for them. And that's, and that's perfectly fine. But, but that lingering, you know, thought from, you know, six years ago plus was, was how, how can we make it easy for them to be able to talk to their audience and sell their books without relying on all this sort of... I would I call it like, operational overhead. Like, really running a business and having an ecommerce and all that. And so this is where we started to really put the pieces together for what, what is the Lulu Direct Buy Button. And, and the whole premise behind this is you don't have to have an ecommerce platform. You just have to have a website. You don't even have to have a website. You just have to have a social media account. You just have to have texts with your customers. Right? And the whole premise behind this is that we, we will allow you inside of the Lulu Direct umbrella to essentially create a channel. And that's sort of our unofficial way of creating a store. And you can connect or create a button for your, for your projects that will serve as, as actual physical or, well, buttons or product offerings, that you can put on your website. So if you have a website, you'll get a little code snippet and you just put it and embed it in your website. And essentially what this does is it creates a check out mechanism on your website for your customers. And it's, and it's a Lulu checkout that's powered by Lulu. Right? So it has the look and feel that you want. It's powered by Lulu. You, you don't have to collect sales tax. We calculate all that, and we collect it and remit it to the states and the governments. It brings in all of our shipping options for your customers. And all that, all your customer does is they place an order. And they feel like they bought it from your site. They're not being redirected to another website. They're not being directed to another ecommerce platform. It, it's all right there for them. And it looks and feels still like it, they're, they’re on your website. We're really excited about this. And, and you know. There's been so many companies that have tried to do this, and I'm sorry to say I feel like they've done it poorly. I hope ours is much better. I truly believe in it. And we're excited.

Lauren: I'm so excited. And I know the marketing team is too.

Nick: Yeah. So it's an interesting. It's an interesting concept. You know, because Lulu has, has given people multiple ways of being able to sell their content. Whether it's through our bookstore, through retail distribution, and then with the advent of the Print API and our Lulu Direct offerings, you know we've, we've opened up even more avenues for them to find their own path.

Lauren: Me and my LiveJournal.

Nick: Right. Wow, oh my God, that takes me back. But this literally, this literally is agnostic. It doesn't matter. You - and, and even, even the cool part is if you, if you share the link on your social media, right? If you've got a big Facebook following and you just share the link on your social media, it will actually do, it'll actually populate the social graph. You know, show the product. And then when they click on it, it comes to a checkout automatically. And it's, it's your checkouts, you know? Powered by Lulu. It's it's not going through Facebook's checkout or Instagram's checkout or TikTok's checkout. It's your rules and your product.

Lauren: Right. Right. Matt and I also recently recorded an episode where we talked about the, you know, how to make or what the difference is between brands that are a single-purchase, like, you know, when you're doomscrolling on TikTok or Instagram, you get an ad delivered to you, you buy whatever the ad is selling you, and then you promptly forget, you couldn't even say the name of the brand you bought it from.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: Even if you like the product, it's just not. It's ephemeral. It's not something memorable. Versus the brands that you are a diehard brand loyalist to, that you go back to again and again and again. And we talked about that, the importance of owning the customer experience.

Nick: Yes.

Lauren: And this is a great way to marry those two. You are still using the social media or other audience – whatever, wherever you have this audience built, you're still leveraging that space for the connection to the audience.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: But it's a more tailored, in your environment experience, and not TikTok's checkout or Instagram’s checkout.

Nick: Yeah, one hundred percent. And you're not, and you're not forced to play by the rules. You know, I think, you know, we get a lot of people that ask about TikTok and – 

Lauren: Yes.

Nick: – why we don't have an integration with TikTok. Well, I mean, the reality is TikTok created their own checkout rules, and it just doesn't work for print-on-demand. Because the the backstory is they brought in a bunch of people from Amazon to build their ecommerce platform, and, and the Amazon people were like, everything has to ship in two days. Two days. Well, this doesn't work in the world of print-on-demand. And, you know, it's unfortunate, because there's such a huge audience out there that, that is - there's such a huge part of the creator economy that's building their audience on TikTok. And then they're kind of being left out because, you know, they're, they're forced to make a decision. You know, do I buy all this stuff and do all the fulfillment myself? Well... A lot of people have day jobs also.

Lauren: Right.

Nick: They don't have time sitting, you know, sit in their garage and package books and, and send them out. So.

Lauren: Yes.

Nick: Yeah, this is, this is... I’m really pumped about this. You know, what we've built has just garnered a lot of positive attention from everybody internally, the people that we've shown it to externally. And I'm, I'm excited for the future of it.

Lauren: Me too. Pulling back the curtain a little bit, full disclosure, we are on the cusp of this going live at the time of recording.

Nick: Yes.

Lauren: It will be, this will be available. The, the Lulu Direct Buy Button will be available by the time this episode goes live. I'm really excited and I'm sure you - I'm sure that you are ten times more excited. And it's going to be really cool.

Nick: I'm excited because I want to, I want to, I want to see... I want to see how well it does. Because it validates all the hard work our team has put –

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: – into it. And, and I'm not exaggerating. You know, when I started picking this back up last year, it was... It was about August when I started revisiting the concept again, and started to really reexamine the concept and get into the details. And then I had to find some, I had to find some ways to make it work. Because we don't, we don't have the full suite of stuff. And we have to like, really find partners to make it happen. And, and, and so we've been building, you know, nonstop since probably December-ish on this. So there's a lot invested in this. And I think the team has done an amazing job of taking kind of my concept and really turning it into a hardened product.

Lauren: So this is something - historically terrible at math, the listeners know this. So I'm sorry if I'm getting this wrong. But if I'm doing my math correctly, this is an idea that, that you sat with for seven years, and then spent seven plus months, like truly bringing to life.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: And it is now finally –

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: – coming to market.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: That is so cool.

Nick: So again, don't be discouraged if your idea doesn't work.

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: Because it's, it may be the right idea, but it might not be the right time.

Lauren: Yes. And not everything can happen overnight.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: Not everything. A good book can't be printed and bound overnight. It can't be written overnight. A good product can't be brought to market overnight. Sometimes – 

Nick: Right.

Lauren: – it takes months, sometimes it takes years. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

Nick: Absolutely. I mean, I - I'm assuming you read Game of Thrones. Like, the show caught up to the writer and – 

Lauren: Yeah.

Nick: – and they passed him. Because – 

Lauren: They sure did.

Nick: – because he was taking his time, you know. Finishing.

Lauren: Yeah there is such a thing as taking too long.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: There is, in fact.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: Such a thing as, you know, you gotta, you gotta strike while the iron’s hot.

Nick: Right.

Lauren: But sometimes it takes a while for the iron to heat up.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: And, you know, and that's okay. But that doesn't mean you're not going to put out something really cool in the long run. So...

Nick: So we're excited. The whole team is excited about it.

Lauren: I – as they should be.

Nick: Anxious and nervous also.

Lauren: Well sure, that's part of the fun, right?

Nick: Right, yeah.

Lauren: Is the, you know, the pre-launch –

Nick: Right.

Lauren: – jitters a little bit?

Nick: Right.

Lauren: Maybe.

Nick: Fair.

Lauren: We'll see. We'll see.

Nick: We'll see how it goes.

Lauren: Yeah. This whole episode got scrapped and nobody knows why.

Nick: No...

Lauren: No no no, I think it's going to be really, really cool. And I'm really excited to see where it goes. And congratulations, because that's a huge accomplishment.

Nick: Oh don't, don’t congratulate me. The team that really pulled it all together. They are the ones that get all the credit.

Lauren: Congratulations to all of you.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah.

Lauren: But you still get – 

Nick: Thank you.

Lauren: – you still get credit where credit is due.

Nick: Thank you, I appreciate it.

[48:10] – Episode Wrap Up

Lauren: Do you think that's like the, the feature or the thing that you're the proudest of that you've been able to bring to the table while here?

Nick: Oh, wow. That's a, that's a loaded question.

Lauren: I know. I didn't, I didn't prepare you for that question. So I'm putting you on the spot with that one.

Nick: I think... There's, there are so many cool things that we have, we've built, from our cover creation tool...

Lauren: Also very cool, yeah.

Nick: And I, I think, I think I'm most proud about the Shopify app. It was something that I had kind of proposed for a while, and then we finally committed to do it. And it was, it was more validation, right? Because you could see the the shift in where the internet itself was going and how commerce was working. And, and it just sort of really lined up with everything that we were, we were trying to do. Where again, we were, were trying to build a... we’re, we’re creating a platform and we're hosting a platform for all these creators to be able to take their content and turn it into something that they could monetize. And that was just this really natural progression. And, and Shopify really opened up that door to where, where the internet was going. And, and then, you know, as you can see, like, all these other companies have started jumping on that ecommerce bandwagon, as we talked about. So, I mean, that's... ah man, that’s like picking your favorite child. I can't do that.

Lauren: Alright. Fair enough. I, I won't ask you to do that. But I, I mean, I do think that's a good answer though, because we wouldn't have a lot of the things that we have today without that, that Shopify app. So it's, it's okay to feel

Nick: Yeah, it's fun.

Lauren: – slightly biased towards that one a little bit. And to anyone listening who is using our Shopify app, say thank you Nick. But yeah, no, I think that's a, I think that's a, that's a pretty good accomplishment to claim. And, you know, I couldn't think of a better way to end that, honestly.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: So Nick, thank you so much for joining me today.

Nick: Thank you for having me. This was fun.

Lauren: I'm glad you had a good time. And I hope the listeners really enjoyed it too. I think there was a lot of really cool insight into an area of the company that we don't talk a lot about.

Nick: I hope, I hope they learned and grew from it.

Lauren: I hope so too.

Nick: Yeah.

Lauren: And I hope that they're excited to learn more about the buy button. I'm sorry, the Lulu Direct Buy Button.

Nick: Yeah, absolutely.

Lauren: And I will make sure that I link those resources in the show notes and a couple of the other episodes that we referenced throughout here, so you can go check those out. And in the meantime, please like and subscribe. You can leave us reviews anywhere you're listening. If you have any questions for me or for Nick, you can email me at podcast@lulu.com and I will make sure I pass them on to Nick. Unless they are ideas for new features, in which case I will vet them personally and then take credit for them if they're good.

Nick: Perfect.

Lauren: Thanks for listening and thanks for joining me.

Nick: Thank you.

Lauren: I told you we could yap for an hour.

Nick: Yeah.