Matt: Welcome back to another exciting episode. Exciting’s... maybe a strong word. Maybe not. Maybe not strong enough. Of Publish & Prosper.

Lauren: I think they're all exciting.

Matt: Do you really?

Lauren: No.

Matt: No. There's definitely some where the topics are... they’re a little rough.

Lauren: I think –

Matt: But necessary.

Lauren: I think not necessarily. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way. Like, I don't mean like some of them are boring. I think there are some episodes that are exciting and, and fun to talk about. Because they're conversational or we get weird in them, or I think it's a topic that we, like, care a lot about.

Matt: You get weird in them.

Lauren: That's fine. But then there's also, like, there are some that I don't think are exciting but are, like you just said –

Matt: I just realized what shirt you're wearing.

Lauren: Yeah?

Matt: I couldn't read it, it was really – How did you get it that – Oh, you made it.

Lauren: I made it.

Matt: Oh my gosh. Please read what your shirt says.

Lauren: Do, do you want me to tell the story behind it first?

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: I love this shirt.

Lauren: So...

Matt: It’s so fitting.

Lauren: On Friday, in the span of an hour, three different people sent me the same Instagram post.

Matt: Including me.

Lauren: And Matt was the third of the three. So at that point I was like, okay, I gotta make a version of this shirt for myself.

Matt: Well, the Instagram post was a t-shirt.

Lauren: The Instagram post –

Matt: The guy was wearing a t-shirt.

Lauren: Yeah, so the Instagram post was... and I did alter it slightly for my shirt. So the Instagram post was a guy wearing a shirt that said: Sorry for what I said yesterday, I had two White Monsters and I let it create a third. Which is incredible and and very, very appropriate –

Matt: So accurate for Lauren.

Lauren: – for me. But I had to make my own version. So first of all, I made it on a pink t-shirt, using white glittery –

Matt: I see that.

Lauren: – Cricut iron-on.

Matt: That’s why it’s hard for me to read.

Lauren: I know, I wanted it to be a little subtle. And mine says: Sorry for what I said when I had two White Monsters and let it create a third. So. I'm glad you caught that.

Matt: Locking into yesterday wasn't...

Lauren: No, I didn't want to commit to it.

Matt: Okay. I gotchu.

Lauren: So. But yeah, no, that's how, that's how I spent –

Matt: The rest of the context there is that –

Lauren: – the first hour of my day yesterday.

Matt: – Lauren drinks almost exclusively White Monsters and water.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: She's like the only person on our team that doesn't rush to a coffee shop everywhere we go. She's looking for a CVS to get White Monsters.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Four packs.

Lauren: Yes. I don't, I don't drink coffee. And I have a reputation for it. And, and that is what it is. It's fine. But it is a great segue into today's episode –

Matt: I love that shirt.

Lauren: – topic, actually.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Because –

Matt: Sorry. Yeah. Go ahead.

[3:01] – Episode Topic Intro

Lauren: Today we are talking about brand loyalty. And how to get your customers to return to your brand, and how to give them reasons to return to your brand.

Matt: Or whatever you refer to them as.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Some people don't like to call them customers.

Lauren: Customers, readers, fans –

Matt: Fans, readers, whatever it is. But the point is, how do you get them to come back?

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: And continue engaging with you and potentially purchasing other things? You know, because again, at the end of the day, we're all trying to build businesses here, and support ourselves, so.

Lauren: Right. Right. And –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – this is something that comes up with us a lot –

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: – throughout different episodes. In this particular instance I don't, I don't drink any other energy drinks. Like, I won't –

Matt: Can confirm.

Lauren: – if you said to me, like, you can suffer or you can have a Red Bull, I choose suffering. So... why is it? Why am I brand loyal for like, fifteen years now, to Monster? Why are we –

Matt: That’s a great question –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – because they all taste like dirty pothole water to me. Like after a rainstorm.

Lauren: Yeah well that's, that's what coffee tastes like to me, so.

Matt: Fair enough.

Lauren: Okay. It's fine.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But, but there's so many – you know, we, we talk about it all the time. We talk about the, the t-shirt brands that we love.

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: And, and going back to Disney, and authors that are instant-buy authors. Matt's been reading his way through the complete back catalog of one author for like, seven months now. You know, whatever. What is it that makes us feel, makes you, makes the average person feel like it's, it's something that they want to come back to again and again?

Matt: Yeah, this is a fun episode. It's really cool to think about, like... there's a reason why we go back to these, these brands, these creators, these locations, these, you know, types of energy drinks, whatever that might be. Like. There's a reason we do that. And it's not just because of price or something. It's very rarely that.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: Like, you know, if I'm just looking straight up for a pair of shoes, like a new pair of Vans, if I don't go to the Vans store, I might, yeah, look around online to see who has the ones I want. And I might do some price comparisons. Cause I'm just looking for a pair Vans. I'm loyal to that brand per se, but you know.

Lauren: But not the retailer.

Matt: It's more of a just a retail experience. I'm just looking for like, who's going to get it to my house faster –

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: – and cheaper. But you know, I still will try to visit the Vans store whenever I want Vans, you know? But if I'm looking for, you know, something from a brand like Los Bros or... You know, for me, I really like Violent Gentleman and a few others where, you know, I'm very much loyal to them.

Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it is actually something – because I don't, I don't want anyone listening right off the jump to just say, like, you guys just listed off a bunch of like, enterprise level multi-billion dollar companies. I think it's actually more important and more relevant and easier to establish brand loyalty when you are a smaller business, a smaller brand, the companies like the Lost Bros. Violent Gentleman is also not a super high level – like, I only know about them because of you.

Matt: They're probably the size of Lost Bros.

Lauren: Right. Right. So what is it about these brands that gets people coming back?

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. And, and I think also, I mean, Lost Bros is a great example for me personally, because like, I have my Professional Yapper sweatshirt that I've worn a couple of times on podcast. Every single time that I wear it, every single time out in public, I get at least one compliment on it. From, from creators at conferences to cashiers checking me out at stores. I get at least one compliment on it every time I wear it. Super comfortable. Love that sweatshirt. You could not pay me to tell you the name of the brand that I got it from. I have no idea. I have no idea where I got it from. What's the difference between that and the 50-something Lost Bros t-shirts and sweatshirts that are hanging in my closet right now?

Matt: Do you really think it's 50?

Lauren: I mean, I know what the spend threshold had to be for me to reach VIP customer status.

Matt: Wow.

Lauren: So... Yeah.

Matt: With that, maybe we should jump in.

Lauren: Let's, let's jump right in.

Matt: Yeah. So we're going to talk about a few things throughout this episode. You know, obviously you have to get them to come and buy first. Like –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – that’s the first step. Just because they love your product, that doesn't always mean they're going to come back again and again and again. There has to be something else there. So we're going to talk about what are those something elses that can bring them back and create that experience that makes them want to come back over and over again, regardless of the product. And so we'll give you some, some tips and some tactics and things that you can do to achieve that.

Lauren: Yeah. We're also going to maybe reference a couple of different data points and resources throughout this episode. So just up at the top, so we don't have to introduce them every time, we're pulling data from... Bread Financial released a report, The State of the American Shopper, in March of 2026. Attentive also did a 2026 State of Loyalty and Retention report, and Clutch did a Brand Loyalty Survey in fall of 2025.

Matt: There's a ton of these things out there.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: These just seemed to be some really good ones that had a pretty decent amount of data, and a, and a pretty good sampling size.

Lauren: Yeah. These were... I narrowed it down from a much longer list, so narrowed it down to those three, and all three of them will be linked in the show notes. So if you want to go check more information in any of those, check them out. They're all pretty interesting reports, actually.

Matt: Yeah.

[9:24] – Getting New Customers to Your Brand

Matt: So to start off, obviously you need to get people to come to you.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Right? So discoverability, we've talked about that in a lot of episodes. Quite a, quite a number of them. So we won't go super in-depth here. But you have noted in the outline episode 68 and episode 119 have some content around discovery?

Lauren: Yeah, 68 was discoverability in the age of AI. And then 119 was I think... marketing to humans in an, in an internet run by robots or whatever we wound up calling it, something like that. I'll link them both in the show notes, but they're both focusing more on this idea of how to get people to your brand in the first place.

Matt: The TL;DR on any of those, as well as the other episodes we've done that aren't even AI related, just about discoverability. You might want to link to some of those too.

Lauren: Sure.

Matt: But you want to get people to your site, to your, you know, storefront, whatever it is you're using. Because that's how you're going to be able to enact these tactics. If you don't control the customer experience, you can't really do any of this.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Like, this is all out of your control. So, you know, this is one of the biggest arguments against Amazon that I always prop up against people is, you know. You might get lucky, and somebody might discover your book on accident in Amazon. It's rare these days. But beyond that there's – it's not a good customer experience. They're not going to come back to you and find – you know what I mean? Like, it's just transactional. Purely. And it's typically based on price or accidental, you know, basically tourism there. So first and foremost, you have to have a home base where you're driving people to come and check out your content.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: And whether it's fiction, nonfiction, you know, other types of products, courses, it doesn't matter. If you don't have a home base where you control that experience, then none of – the rest of this episode’s probably not going to be super helpful to you. So.

Lauren: I mean, agreed. And it is primarily... like in the example that I just gave of my Professional Yapper sweatshirt versus any of my Lost Bros stuff. I bought that sweatshirt on TikTok. And it's great for a single... If that's all you want. If all you want is, I want customers that are making a single purchase from me and... [and I'm making money fast on products sold. That's great. Because the ease of use of I saw this ad, I clicked on it, fifteen seconds later, I'm checking out. I didn't even have to get up from my couch and go get my wallet, or put any of the information in, it's all already in here... That's, that's great. But it didn’t –

Matt: It's a different strategy.

Lauren: But it was –

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: – within the TikTok ecosystem.

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: It was not within whatever that brand's ecosystem is.

Matt: Well, and typically there's some, some performance marketing at play, where –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – you’re paying for ads and you're paying for thing – which, again, is fine if you're selling –

Lauren: Yeah, we’re not discouraging –

Matt: – a product or products –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – where it's like, listen, I don't, I don't care about building a loyal audience, necessarily. I just, I need to burn through this inventory or something. Like hey, we get it, no shade. But this is a different episode. This is not... yeah.

Lauren: Right. In the market that we're in right now, I think it's, it's pretty easy to get – not easy, but it's, it's pretty obvious how to get people to pay attention to you for the first time. It's the retention that is the hard part. It's, it's the getting someone to come back and getting somebody to, to make a second purchase. But especially the type of audience that we're talking to, who are the kind of creators that are making content or products that there's a larger gap of time between releases.

Matt: I would argue that first point with you, only –

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: – because I think that in the market that we're in, the same way you started this. I think it's actually a little harder to get first time eyeballs –

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: – onto your product. Whether it's, you know, a book or the third book in a series or, you know, whatever that might be. I think it's actually harder, especially when you're trying to do it in an organic, non-paid sort of way. So it becomes even more important that you're able to retain that – Like, it's harder to gain a first time reader, buyer, whatever. That makes it even more critical that you're able to retain them. The cost to retain a customer is much cheaper than it is to acquire a new one. That's always been the case, but it's even more so the case now. So if you're running, you know, paid ads on Facebook or whatever. Or, you know, whatever it is you're doing, whether you're doing, you know, newsletter swaps, or whatever that might be, it doesn't matter. But the effort that you're putting in, if you're winning new readers and new customers, it's going to be a lot cheaper to keep them by enacting some of these tactics. And it's always better than having to rely on constantly acquiring new users. It gets very expensive and very time consuming. So I would push back there, but otherwise I agree with everything else you said.

Lauren: I will give you that one. I think that’s –

Matt: I'll take, I'll take my wins where I can get them.

Lauren: That's, that's fair.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: That's fair. And also, you know, the, the associated return on investment. Which we've talked about in... we did, we did a whole episode on how to get your readers to sell your book for you. And, and this is the first step of that, is getting them to be the kind of loyal fans and readers that will come back.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And, and –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – sell your book for you. So, no matter how you do it, you got people to come look at you at least once. You got somebody to purchase a product from you, purchase a book from you. Whether that was easy or difficult, you've done it.

[15:02] – Understanding Modern Consumer Behavior

Lauren: Now the next step, the important step, is how do you, how do you keep them? How do you keep them there?

Matt: I think it's important to note one thing. You know, some of the research that you did, the, the, the study that Bread Financial did, which was, you know... I think the sample size was a little more than 22,000 people, respondents. 31% of them said that they’d tried a new retailer in the last twelve. months.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Couple things that make that important. 31% is just just under a third of people out there shopping for content or whatever it was. However, I would also point out, you know, they were very specific in talking about, you know, retailers and –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – online stores, so. When we're talking to our audience right now, to the people listening, you're not considered a retailer necessarily. Not when you talk about size and scope. You are, more often than not, you're an indie publisher, a creator, somebody who, you know, even if you've got thirty titles right now, you're probably not, you know, pushing the volume that a quote unquote retailer would be pushing. Based on the size of the sampling that they did. But nonetheless, that's almost a third. That's not bad, but it's also not great. So again, I think the point is, if you do all that effort to win new readers and new buyers, you really need to double down and focus on retaining them. So.

Lauren: Yes. I also think it's important to clarify that, you know, the data that we're presenting here, it is probably more focused on retailers than brands.

Matt: Some of it.

Lauren: And I do think that that was a really important distinction that Matt made in the beginning of the episode, almost accidentally, just when talking about, you know. Saying that you're looking for a new pair of Vans, you're going to go do comparisons at several different retailers to find, you know... Is anyone running a sale right now? Is there one that I can get it today versus I have to wait a week for the shipping? Whatever. In that case, you are performing brand loyalty but not retailer loyalty. And those are kind of distinct consumer behaviors.

Matt: Yeah, that’s fair.

Lauren: So in this case we are talking about brand loyalty. But because we're talking also to smaller entrepreneurs and creators, if you're selling direct you are also the retailer in this story.

Matt: Well that's what you want, ultimately, you wanna –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – build a moat around your product or brand.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Meaning they can't get it anywhere else. They have to get it from you. And then –

Lauren: Or they want to.

Matt: Well, we'll get to that.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: But, you know, starting off, if they can't get it anywhere else, they need to come to you. And then that's where you need to win them over, with the really good customer experience. Now, if they can get it somewhere else, if you're, if you're selling your books wide, so you're on Amazon and Ingram and you're selling direct and whatever, that's totally fine. You just have to really provide the best customer experience possible to get those price conscious people to come to you. Instead of going to Amazon and finding the cheapest way possible to to acquire your content. There's a quote that you have in here I like. This is from Anna Peck, who's a Content Marketing Manager at Clutch, which is one of the places that you got some of your data. She says, “Brand loyalty isn't dead, it's evolving. Today's consumers expect more than a good product. They want honesty, clear values, and accountability, especially when brands get it wrong.” So, I think that really sums up what we're talking about here, which is you can have a great book. You can get them to come and buy it for the first time. But if that's it, if it's just a transaction and you've not given them any other reason to, to come back to you... Even if the book is great and they love it, there's a good chance they'll wait for the next one, sure. And then they'll go to their retailer of choice, or wherever they can find it cheaper, or... you know. You have to give them the reasons to come back to you. And so being transparent as a creator – which, you have that ability, unlike a lot of brands who can't be fully transparent – that's a big win. And, you know, the ability to, to show up publicly, regularly, and be who you are, I think really goes a long way for, for consumers, readers, fans, whatever you want to call them.

Lauren: I think so, too. And I think, you know, kind of one of the overarching themes in all of the different reports and articles and data presentations that I was looking at for this episode, there was, there was this kind of running theme of a lot of consumer insecurity right now. And a lot of consumers being afraid of, you know... whether it's we're, we're tightening our budget so we don't want to waste money on a bad product. Or we're looking for price competitive products without losing value. Or, you know there's, there are so many bad actors out there that we don't want to put our faith in a company that we've never heard of before and then find out that they're scammy, or putting out a bad product, or whatever it is. And so what like a lot of consumers these days are valuing above all else is trust. And I think that that's where this brand loyalty stuff becomes so important. Is that you have established or proven a value of trust to an audience. And I think that that's what people are looking for. And when you give them like – like the, you know, in, in that quote that you just said, the ending, especially when brands get it wrong. I would rather, I have more trust in a brand that whether it's like a, you know, they messed up a product or they messed up an order or something was delivered incorrectly or not delivered at all, or whatever. And instead of brushing it aside, they take accountability, they take ownership, and they make it right. That is going to make me more loyal to the brand, not less. And I think that's the kind of stuff that, that this whole thing is talking about.

Matt: Yeah. And of the people Clutch surveyed, 96% of them said transparency was important –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – probably the most important for getting their loyalty, their return business.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So that's a pretty high number.

Lauren: Yes, yes it is.

[21:22] – Reframing the Consumer Relationship

Matt: So I like this, you have in the outline, what you're breaking down is kind of three buckets or segments of customers, ways you can look at these people that, that may come to your site and purchase. And because you're a voracious romance reader –

Lauren: True.

Matt: – I asked you to put it into a format that would align with that. So Lauren has three categories, three segments of customers, and they are: Matched. So maybe they saw one of your ads or something like that. They bought your book and that's it.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Right? So no real loyalty there. They might not even know who you are. Whatever. You know, Instagram catches Lauren and I all the time with –

Lauren: All the time.

Matt: – really clever ads. I don't know who the brand is, but the... it looks enticing, I'll give it a shot.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: Whatever. If, like her Professional Yapper sweatshirt, I end up liking it, nine times out of ten I can never find it again, cause there was no impression made on me by –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – by the brand or the creator. So, Matched. Right?

Lauren: Yup. But – yeah, but no further commitment.

Matt: Right? The second segment is Dating.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: You'd probably buy this product from this brand or creator again, but you'd have to look up your social media history to find them, and to make a repeat purchase.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: So, you know.

Lauren: Not a top –

Matt: It was okay.

Lauren: – priority.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But you would –

Matt: But you’d consider it.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: You'd go back.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. At least a second date.

Matt: They didn't leave a huge impression.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: So you'd have to go and check receipts.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But also didn't leave such a negative impression that I'm like never again.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: You didn't escape out the back door of the restaurant.

Lauren: No.

Matt: Yeah. And then the third segment, or bucket, is Married.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: You love this brand.

Lauren: That escalated quickly.

Matt: Absolutely. You love this brand. You actively seek out new products from them. You are actively subscribed to all their channels. You wait on bated breath for their new drops. Right? This is the holy grail, what we're all after.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: I like these. So Matched, Dating, Married.

Lauren: I like it.

Matt: Love that. We all want fans, followers, customers, consumers, to be married to our brand. Married to our content.

Lauren: Absolutely we do. That's, that's the win. That's the dream.

Matt: So when you match, don't mess it up in the dating period, right?

Lauren: Right.

Matt: I like it. Okay.

Lauren: Right. Which I think is also, an important part of this, is that just having a satisfying experience, like having a good first date with a brand does not instantly turn them into like, a lifelong committed partner. Because, you know, you need more than that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: You need more than that. But what the bigger, the bigger fear in that moment is making that good first impression and not making a bad first impression. So, you know, if you do everything right, you're leaving space for them to come back again and say yes to a second date. But you still have to, have to give them a reason to want to go on a second date. You just haven't burned the bridge.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And that's important. So that's, that's where the real how and why comes back in.

[24:26] – Providing a Personalized Experience

Matt: Attentive says 93% of shoppers are more likely to remain loyal to brands that deliver personalized experiences. How do you feel about personalized experiences?

Lauren: Well I think that personalized can mean a lot of different things. And so, you know, we've talked about like –

Matt: Yeah because there's, there's a line between –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – personalized and like, okay cool, and personalized like, this is real creepy, I'm gonna unsubscribe.

Lauren: Well, and... I think it's also a very fine line between –

Matt: Or they get it wildly wrong.

Lauren: – performative personalization. Right.

Matt: I've gotten an email before from a brand and they addressed me as my ex-wife.

Lauren: Yeah. That's, that's what I'm saying.

Matt: Unsubscribed immediately.

Lauren: That's what I'm saying. Like it's a really – that's not the kind of personalization that I think has value. I think that is something that like, just because you plugged my name into an automated email that you sent me... First of all, you're running the risk of getting the name wrong. And second of all, that doesn't really mean anything to me.

Matt: Dear Vassallo.

Lauren: Right. Like...great. Thank you. But I think that alternatively, if you send me a personalized email that is based on what you were looking at on our website, or based on what you purchased here, here are three other things we think you'd really like. And you get that right? That is a personalized experience that is more likely to make me go ooh. Ooh they got a point. I didn't see those when I was on there.

Matt: Yeah an easy one for indie authors and creators – I guess I'm skipping ahead a little bit.

Lauren: Eh.

Matt: But, while we're on the topic. Is just asking them to reply to your initial thank you email. A lot of ESPs will track that as positive behavior. It will increase your deliverability scores. It does a number of things. But, you know, on the off chance they do reply, which many will, you get some really good feedback there.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: And I think it makes people feel seen and heard, where they can literally just reply and say hey, yeah, this was great, thank you, or whatever. So. But again, I'm skipping ahead. So how can we create some personalized experiences? Like, you know, we just started talking about this, and obviously we've both referenced email, but what are some other ways where we can create a more personalized and or a better customer experience than just hey, buy this thing, and then they're gone?

Lauren: Well, I think definitely some things that we've talked about in other episodes in the past is the, the kind of like surprise element of coming back to somebody and saying... Like, you know, we've talked about like, thank you cards or –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – or doing something that has... not, not value in terms of educational or entertainment value, but something that has value in like, oh, you personalized this experience in a way that, that built a connection between us. You said, oh thank you for your purchase, not via email, but via a nice handwritten note. Or you sent me a sticker to go along with my book, with a thank you note tucked in there too, or a bookplate, a signed bookplate, or something like that. That I didn't pay for, you didn't advertise that you were going to send me a signed copy of the book, but you had this information available to you, and you sent me a little something extra here.

Matt: I saw a book, not too long ago. And after the copyright page, before the dedication page or whatever, they had inserted a page and. Essentially it says this book was purchased directly from the author, who really appreciates this purchase. You know, purchasing directly from me allows me to do this, that, and the other thing, and whatever. And it also listed like, hey, if you haven't already, please sign up for my, my email list. I love to do really fun, cool things. It was just a really cool like... so, you know, moving away from an email list for a second.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Or some other digital ways on your site, or whatever, where you might – in the off chance that, you know, they don't open that email or whatever that might be like, having that page in the book where they're not going to miss that. Like, they bought the book from you, the page is there. You're able to tell them what it means to you that they bought it directly from you. But also there's that, that little CTA, right? That physical CTA, not a digital one. Like, hey, you know, do this thing, because you'll get a lot more cool stuff, and I really like to keep up with all of my readers. I thought that was really cool.

Lauren: I do think that's really cool, and I think that's a great example of a situation in which somebody personalized an experience in a way that isn't individually personalized to every –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – single customer.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But it feels personal.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: So that is something that – you know, they didn't have to create, they're not using an API to create a custom edition of that book for every single person that purchases it.

Matt: Which you could.

Lauren: Which you could.

Matt: But you don't have to.

Lauren: But they are instead using just... the edition of this book that is sold directly from my website has this page inserted in there. It's also that transparency thing coming back, where you're saying – Which I, I mean personally I, I always feel slightly more invested in small, small business owners, creators, entrepreneurs, whatever, that are like, hey, this is a passion project for me. I think that that's, that's transparency, that's personalization, and it's also community. Because it's also making your customers feel invested and involved in the brand that you're building. And I think that that is another great way to personalize that experience without insert person's name here in transactional email.

Matt: Yeah.

[30:21] – Keeping Customers Engaged Between Purchases

Matt: So yeah, all kinds of content you can create and the methods of delivery are obviously what we're going to start talking about. But again, recommendations, entertainment value, community, education, inspiration. You know, comedy, which falls under entertainment. Those are all, I think, really great ways to get people to, to fall in love with you and your brand and your products and content and to keep coming back. So.

Lauren: I think those can all kind of go in out of the box ways. I'm cutting ahead a little bit, so. I'm going to keep going back to the Lost Bros as an example. And this actually isn't something that they do, but it's a, it's a good example, I think, of maybe something that could be doing – guys, you can have this idea for free. Let's say that I bought a shirt from them that was one of their seasonal variants of Drinking Around the World at Epcot shirts. And as a follow up email to that, because one of the things they do – and this is what we're going to get into now is, is what kind of content you can, or what kind of practice in general you can provide people to make them come back in between purchases. One of the things that they do regularly is park content. So they'll do things like, hey, we just went and reviewed this new drink that dropped here. Let's say I ordered a shirt from them that is their new seasonal variant for Drinking Around the World in Epcot, and they send me a follow up email that's like, hey, hope you like the, the shirt, whatever. While you're waiting to wear it on your next trip, here are three pieces of content that we've created that are... Reviewing a new drink at Epcot. Talking about a fun show that we're going to watch while we're taking a break between countries in Epcot, and... Three of our favorite must-pack things to have in your bag. All three of those are educational, entertainment, and inspirational pieces of content that make me go back to their page, back to their brand, and will have me thinking about them when I'm on my next trip, going oh, what was that really good drink that they said they liked that I should check out while I'm here?

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Lauren: And I think that's the kind of stuff that is personal, entertainment, educational, all of the above. And, and makes people go oh, there's more here than just a t-shirt. There's more here than just a book. There's more here than just a weekly podcast episode.

Matt: Yeah. I like behind the scenes content.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I don't know why, I always like to see how the sausage gets made. So one of the things that Violent Gentleman does sometimes is they include behind the scenes, which I really think is cool. But I also enjoy, you know. Again, if somebody’s gonna give me a link to something where, you know, it's educational and it falls in line with, with something that, you know, I care about or... Anything entertainment value these days, I'm always looking for something that's not social media where I can just go and –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – is there, you know, a really funny or cool blog or something like that that they've done? I think that stuff's extremely interesting and helpful for the brands that I like. But it does help solidify a brand that I might purchase something from one time to a brand that I grow into. You know, again, somebody who's a multi-purchaser.

Lauren: I also really like behind the scenes content. I think that's a great – And I think that, that it's something that gets overlooked because people assume that behind the scenes content has to mean, like, it has to mean like, here's how the shirts are being screenprinted. Or here is like, my writing process. And I don't think that's necessarily true. I think there are other ways to do behind the scenes content that can be really interesting and inspiring to the different types of people that are interested in following you, and interested in your brand.

Matt: Yeah. The other thing that I like that I see people doing sometimes. But admittedly I don't see them doing it often enough is... Two – well it's, it's two types of content. But, you know, it's pretty easy to, to put something in an email or even a social media post or something like that where it's like, you know, A. something to do with your industry, you know, whatever that might be. But B., like, you know, where you might be soon. Like an event coming up, or even if you're not going to be there, like. If you write content that is, you know, basically sci-fi fantasy, you know, are there any cool events coming up? Again, whether you're going to be there or not, is a really great place for people who like your content to congregate and potentially... But even more so if you're going to be there, right? Like, if you're a writer and you're going to be... I don't know, whatever, DragonCon. In Atlanta. You know, let people know that. And then like hey, I'm going to be at DragonCon. If you, if you're going to be out there, please come by my booth, check me out. Or, you know, I'll be over here hanging out at this thing, you know, most of the time. I'd love to, to meet you and, you know, hear what you liked about my books or whatever. Like, I think including that kind of content is really cool. People love to do that. And in many cases, you know, if they're already going, that's just really cool that they could meet a creator or author or somebody –

Lauren: Oh yeah.

Matt: – that they've, they've just purchased some content from and they're, they're just getting to know this particular creator. That's, that's a really cool way to – Like, I'm always curious, like, you know, what does this person look like in real life? Or what are they, what do they do? Or how do they talk, or...? I think as humans, we're innately fascinated by some of that stuff, so.

Lauren: Sure, always –

Matt: I don't see enough of that.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: You know?

Lauren: I, I agree. And I do think that, that you're right, that it doesn't always have to be where you are next going to be.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: It – because it can also, like, I'm so bummed I can't make it to DragonCon this year, but I know X, Y, Z creators are going to be there. So if you're going, stop by and check out their stuff and say hi to them. And if you do go and something really cool happens, reply to this email and tell me about it so that I can live vicariously through you.

Matt: Or tag me on social media –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – or whatever. Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Just creating more engagement, creating more community, creating more of a feeling of like, hey, you're invested in this thing and you're really, you know?

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I think that's, that's the name of the game. The other one was, you know, again, the industry news stuff. Like, depending on what kind of content you create, or what industry you're in, or whatever that might be, like, you'd be amazed how many people don't have any clue what's going on in that industry. Like they get so narrowed into specific authors or creators. They don't, they don't necessarily pay attention as a whole to, to that little world, you know what I mean? And so I like that, you know, with Violent Gentlemen, some of the other brands that I do frequent, several of them will put little snippets of industry news stuff or something that's going on. I like that. And on social media specifically, and a few other outlets or channels. News – air quotes – news content does tend to get cycled into the algorithms more often.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And so if for nothing else, it's a good way to get you seen by people within your industry or genre or circles, that they might not normally come across your content.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: So. Yeah.

[37:41] – Making the Most of Transactional Emails

Lauren: I want to talk a little bit specifically about what you can do to keep people around long enough for them to see this content.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: And this was going back to that stat that Matt said earlier, that Attentive share that 69% of consumers said that post-purchase content makes them feel more confident about their purchase.

Matt: I didn't share that one earlier, but this is a good one too.

Lauren: Didn't you?

Matt: No.

Lauren: What was the one you shared?

Matt: It was the one about... 93% of shoppers are more likely to remain loyal to brands that deliver personalized experiences.

Lauren: Well.

Matt: Yeah. That's as we were going into personalization.

Lauren: Well then.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So here's –

Matt: But this is a good one too.

Lauren: Anyway, here's another great one. Also from Attentive. 69% of consumers say that post-purchase content makes them feel more confident about their purchase. And I think that that's something that gets often overlooked by people. Also is something that is very hard to do if you're not selling direct.

Matt: Yeah. And I think right now it matters more than anything. Because right now there's a lot of purchases happening at a sale point where it's, you know. These are very clearly, like, weird like spin-up brands where it's some sort of product that was easy to create or knock off of somebody else's. They use AI to spin up a brand name real quick, and a little landing page real quick. And, you know, you make this purchase and you get some janky sort of thank you email and that's it. You know, you don't even get a shipping notification half the time. And if you're lucky, it shows up on your doorstep. Definitely had situations where it didn't. So getting something – whether it's the, the post-purchase confirmation or a thank you email or something, where again, you've built in something that makes it feel like a human is behind this effort... I think, right now, goes a long way.

Lauren: Absolutely. I think it does go a long way. And I think it's also, a great way to keep people... not, not just engaged – I literally, over the course of the last like, three days, have been getting an email series from an Etsy store that I purchased from last week. And I have been kind of entertained by these emails. And they're all, they're transactional emails. It was, you know, your purchase has shipped and then – I actually got a little bit of a giggle out of this one yesterday, because I got an email from them letting me know that my package had reached the state of North Carolina. Which is really just a nice way of saying like your package is –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – in transit. But it was, it was personalized, because it knew it was being shipped to North Carolina. And, and like, just like the way the subject line and the way they said it, I was like, oh, that's kind of cute. Like, they're like, it's coming, it's soon, it’s almost here.

Matt: Well, for anybody who's listening who thinks, oh that sounds really complicated. It's actually not. Because on the back end, what's happening is there are triggers that make these things, or that can make these things happen. So your package at every next check point is scanned by the carrier.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: And you can build in these webhooks or things, you know. Depend on how you use what you use in Shopify or whoever, and your email program that's connected to it, where every time one of those triggers happen, you can set up an email to run off that. If your package was crossing multiple, you know, state lines, they could set something up that was fun and funny, like oop, you just got through Texas, a couple more states to go, or –

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: – and. But it's all based off of information that the system has. Right? So you can do these really cool, funny things within your transactional email series, which a lot of people don't. And I think that's where you're going with this, is they don’t –

Lauren: That is exactly, yes.

Matt: – don't take advantage of, of these transactional emails. Which have the highest open rate, by the way, of any emails.

Lauren: Yeah, of course, because that's where I want to know. And this is actually a great example in general, because this Etsy package was something new that I thought of, that I was at Disney, that I was like, surely somebody has, has done this, and they have. And I shopped around, I bought from a store that I've never shopped from before. And just being able to keep in touch with me via those transactional emails... if I go home and on top of this pleasant experience that I've had so far, if I go home and it turns out the product is good and I like it... I'm probably going to go back and buy from this store again.

Matt: Well, you're also saving yourself a little bit of heartache... For anybody who's sold direct enough, or does enough volume, you understand that the largest amount of questions or support tickets you’ll get is where's my product?

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Even like the next – like, people have been so trained by Amazon and these other business models to expect it to show up like, five minutes after they bought it. You know, the more you can do to, to, to, to make them feel good about their purchase and know that it's on the way, it's hitting these, like they're not going to bother you.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: They're gonna wait til it shows up because you're, you're giving them that reassurance and you're encouraging them that, you know, it's on the way and, you know, good things are coming. So you're doing yourself a favor, unknowingly, by doing those things too. By way of lessening the customer service output that you're going to have to potentially look forward to. So.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: The transactional emails are the most forgiveness people –

Matt: It’s a goldmine.

Lauren: – or the most... It's a goldmine, because it's the most grace any customer, even a brand new first time customer, will give you, because they are interested in the information that's in there, so they're more likely to open them. No one's ever going to complain about getting too many updates on... your order was received, your, your order has shipped, your order is here, your order was delivered. You could email me every single day between the day I purchased it and the day I get it, and I'm not going to complain about that, because I want to be in the know. I want to know where my things are and I want to. I want to trust in the fact that they're coming. And if you have the opportunity to include other details in there, whether that's... hey, you know, while you're waiting, here's something you can go check out. Like related to the product that you just got. Or hey, like, thanks for your, for your first time purchase. If you love it, let us know. And here's a promo code for, for you to order another one. Or you know, something like that. I think there's, there's ways that those transactional emails can be a great opportunity for you to continue the conversation, or keep people at least, like, paying attention until they have the product in hand.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And then hopefully in that case, the product will wind up speaking for itself.

[44:32] – Timing Your Post Purchase Communication

Matt: Something else you have in here that I really like is something that people often don't do. And that is... we're so quick to reward them for the first purchase, and you get this nice thank you email and a confirmation email. And then the shipping when it first ships out, and you do these things. But, you know, second, third, and subsequent purchases, those series, those email series or however you choose to approach it, those taper off very fast. Like, you just kind of forget about – you have to keep those sequences in play or that, that experience has to carry over from that really good first impression you want to make to a continued really good impression. Right? The goal was to get from matched to regular dating. Right? And then married. You –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – want that customer married to you, and so you can't give up after the first one with delivering that wow factor.

Lauren: Right. Well, and especially, I mean, in that analogy, you don't go from date two to the courthouse.

Matt: Well, some people do.

Lauren: Some people do.

Matt: It's not advisable. But you never know.

Lauren: You know, if that worked for you, let me know.

Matt: It didn't.

Lauren: Alright. Good to know. Take your word for it. But, you know. Yeah, you gotta, you gotta keep nurturing that relationship. You can't just be like, man, I really sealed the deal after this one purchase. And now I can just ignore this person, and they're going to keep coming back for more without any effort on my part. Doesn’t work that way.

Matt: Not usually, no.

Lauren: And it shouldn't work that way. I also think that one of the things that, that people tend to do wrong in, in this situation is it's not a mutually beneficial conversation.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And I think that's, that's a really easy misstep that people make if the last email that you send with like the hey, thanks for purchasing. Like, I saw your product was delivered, great. Let me know that you liked it. Leave a review. You're not giving them, actually, any reason to do that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: You're not giving any reason for like, hey... Just – you're just asking them for a favor. It's like, hey, you just bought something from me, you gave me money, and now I'm asking you for a bonus favor on top of the money you’ve already given me.

Matt: Yeah, I get those all the time. Where my post-purchase experience wasn't, it was just whatever.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: And the product was just whatever. And then yeah, right in my inbox is this, hey, please, you know, take this survey or leave us a review or, you know, whatever that might be. It's like, well, I don't have time for all that.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: You haven't made me feel like I need to... nah.

Lauren: You haven't given me a reason to, to feel like this is something that I, I –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – wanna take the time to do.

Matt: Now you’re just asking me for my time, but it's... Yeah. I definitely see that a lot. It's probably not a good thing. You should definitely save that type of request for, you know, a little bit later in your nurture series. Or even after the second purchase or something. Depending on what it is your content is, by the way.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: So, you know, again, if you've got multiple titles or multiple products in your, your store, then yeah, maybe give them a little time to settle in with your stuff. If you've only got one book, you know. I only have one book. I still don't hit people with, you know, an email specifically for leaving reviews or surveys or none of that stuff, whatever.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: But.

Lauren: Well, and especially in that case too. Even, even if you did, even if you wanted to do that, if you send me an email three hours after my book was delivered that said, hey, let us know, how'd you like the book? I don't know dude, I haven't even opened it yet.

Matt: Yeah. Well, I've also seen it where, you know, they'll send you an email. They want you to give a review or take a survey about your purchase experience.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Now sometimes I feel like those are just thinly veiled attempts at getting you just to leave a review in general. And other times it's... you know. Okay, my purchase experience, I clicked the button, I gave you my credit card info. Unless you've really done a great job throughout the site, you know, experience to, to really make them feel some sort of way... Like, yeah, just save that for later.

Lauren: Which we're not – I just want to be very clear. We are not saying don't do this. Because we absolutely, we've given –

Matt: That’s correct.

Lauren: – this advice before that you, you can and should ask for customer feedback. That is a good way to kind of establish that rapport between you and your customers. But make sure that you're timing it correctly, and make sure that you're not asking for too much without offering anything in return.

Matt: Yeah. And you know, honestly, if you're not playing the, the Amazon rat race... Reviews, air quotes, are not the end all be all.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: It's not detrimental to your business. Feedback is great, and is detrimental to your business. And when you get really good feedback, you can extract out some of that and use it as a testimonial on your site or something along those lines. You know, once a week on social media and post a nice little sentence from one of those pieces of feedback that somebody, you know, loved your book, loved the, the plot or whatever whatever, right? Like, would recommend it to all their friends. You know, something like that. But if you're not in that, you know, Amazon or Ingram rat race, you don't need reviews necessarily. So you're better off waiting a little bit and soliciting for actual feedback. And then you can use that feedback for things like testimonials and stuff.

Lauren: Personally, I'm much more likely to give a positive testimonial for a brand that I am more than a one time purchaser.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So that is something that I think is more appropriate. And you're, you're going to have better success with it if you ask for it further down the line.

[50:25] – Other Ways to Inspire Return Visits

Matt: Yeah. And one of the last things we'll touch on. And we've talked about this before in other episodes, we even mentioned earlier in this episode is, you know, surprise content goes a long way. Depending on what you're set up for, what you're capable of, or what your budget allows for, there are a number of different ways you can surprise somebody with, with really good content or like, just a gesture or something like that. I always love the, the handwritten mailed thank you notes, or birthday cards, or Valentine's Day cards, or whatever your thing is, right? Or some sort of other bonus product, or a free resource download, or whatever it might be. It's very easy these days to create a separate landing page and have some sort of downloadable resource there that only people who have purchased your, your book or your product can access. And that's a great way to get them on to another piece of your content and continue building that, that relationship with them. So taking opportunities to surprise people with extras.

Lauren: I think that that is such – And again, we've talked about this – so, so overlooked, and can be such a nice touch. And it doesn't have to be something – I agree with Matt. I love the, you know, the personalized notes. I love when I order something directly from a creator and they throw a little something extra in the package. If I ordered five stickers from somebody and they throw a surprise sixth one in there, you know, I'm never going to be complaining about that. But that does also, you know, go directly against our recommendations that you use automated fulfillment and not be manually –

Matt: Well, not necessarily. But yes –

Lauren: – not, but yes.

Matt: Go ahead.

Lauren: It's, it's just, you know, it's not something that you include in the order then, then it's something that you would do separately. But I think there's also plenty of, plenty of ways that you can do it that are like, just supplemental to the order. They don't have to go in with their... I was thinking about –

Matt: Exactly.

Lauren: – this over the weekend. I was reading a book that one of my friends recommended to me, and before I sat down to start reading, I texted her and was like, hey what... what music should I be listening to? Like, what – I love having, like...

Matt: That's weird.

Lauren: I was creating a vibe.

Matt: Oh my god.

Lauren: And I was like, is this, you know, is this like an upbeat Taylor Swift album? Is this the Olivia Rodrigo You Seem Pretty Sad For A Girl So In Love? Like, what's –

Matt: I hope you edit this out.

Lauren: Nope. No. But, like, how cool would it be if you bought a book from, from an author and they sent you an email that was like, hey thanks for your purchase. Here's my, like, Moody Vibes playlist that I recommend you listen to while you're reading this.

Matt: That they created –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – on Spotify with a link to it, yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. I’d love that.

Matt: That's a cool idea.

Lauren: I would love that. That would be so fun.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And it costs nothing.

Matt: You're right. It doesn't cost anything. It's, it's fairly easy these days to take your customer list, export it out of your... whatever you’re using, Shopify or whatever, and, you know, once a year, holiday, or whatever that might... If you're a romance writer, on Valentine's Day, you know, send out a card to everybody on that list. There's automated services that'll do it for you. Just fun stuff like that.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: The playlist actually is a cool idea, even though I think you're weird for asking your friend what you should be listening to. But, I think it's a great idea for authors or creators to, to do something like that. That's really cool.

Lauren: I’m a very music-based person. It's, it's an important part of my everything experience. So. And the people that get it, get it.

Matt: Apparently.

Lauren: It's fine. It's fine.

[53:56] – Episode Wrap Up

Lauren: I think realistically, at the end of all of this, the important, the important part is just the reminder that this is... One, this is why it's important to build a brand and not an individual product. We've said this so many times, we will continue to say it again and again. You're not supposed to be building around a singular book. You're building around your brand. That includes products, including your book. But this is why. Because you are building brand loyalty, not product loyalty. And it's really important to be able to do that. Because that is ultimately the difference between something like the no name brand that I got my Professional Yapper sweatshirt from, and a brand like the Lost Bros. Is that one of them has, has put effort into building and prioritizing long-term customer relationships, and the other one put their priority and effort into short-term sales.

Matt: Yeah. And for those of you out there that are still, you know, also really not feeling good about AI generating content and, you know, people buying AI content and stuff like that. Like. There's no better way to differentiate yourself than to have that brand association with you as a human. As somebody who shows up and is transparent about things and, you know, gives people that really good feeling every time they make a purchase, or whatever that might be. AI is not going to do that for people.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: So for those of you that are still in that foxhole, when it comes to AI and content creation and really trying to, to figure out how to make sure your content breaks through, I mean, this is one of the best ways to do it. It's bolstering that brand, not just that book, and then delivering these, these little surprises and these wow moments and these really good customer experience sessions.

Lauren: Yeah. Which we did, the episode that I recommended earlier about marketing to humans in an internet run by AI, that, that is what we talked about in that episode. That episode was not about using AI to market your book, but it was about –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – proving your humanity and making those human connections. So definitely go check that one out. And if you're not sure what else to do at this point, just... if you wanna, if you wanna make an effort to build your brand loyalty up, ask yourself the question, right now: if somebody... if somebody today, right now, went to your website and bought your book, would they have a reason to come back tomorrow? And if there's nothing you can think of, if you can't think of a single reason that somebody would come back to your website after they already bought your book...

Matt: Then listen to this episode again.

Lauren: Yes. Then start back over at the beginning. And when you're done with that, like, and subscribe, and leave us a review, and go listen to the other episodes linked in the show notes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And lather, rinse, repeat until you do have an answer to that question. And you do have customers coming back for more. Or listeners coming back for another new episode. Same time next week.

Matt: Yeah, hopefully.

Lauren: Hopefully.

Matt: Later.

Lauren: Thanks for listening.