Lauren:  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Publish & Prosper. And I am going to start today's episode with a storytime.

Matt: Love that.

Lauren:  Aren't you excited?

Matt: I usually learn something with your stories.

Lauren:  You're going to learn something. It may or may not be against your will. 

[0:37] – Storytime

Lauren:  So.

Matt: Wait, what are we talking about? Oh, you’re going to tell the story first? Okay.

Lauren:  I'm going to set the scene.

Matt: Okay. I love it.

Lauren:  With the story.

Matt: Do it.

Lauren:  Yes. So my best friend is an editor at Avon, at HarperCollins.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  And she has an author that was a debut author last year.

Matt: Wait, are you allowed to be telling the story?

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  Yep. I mean, I didn't ask her permission, but this is all public information.

Matt: Oh okay.

Lauren:  So.

Matt: Gotcha.

Lauren:  She'll know. It doesn't matter. But, she is the editor for Lauren Okie, whose debut novel came out last year called The Best Worst Thing.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  And her second book is coming out in... I think June, called Tropesick.

Matt: Oh god.

Lauren:  And – I know, I can't wait.

Matt: I'm trope sick.

Lauren:  I can't wait. But, inspired by The Best Worst Thing, which is her first book, one of the... I think publicists? I think she's a publicist at Avon, this woman Michelle, designed a couple of t-shirts. That are just plain white t-shirts –

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  – that say in red writing on them, Bring Back Men Who Yearn.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  And, there was a very limited number of them. Obviously the author herself got one. And then a couple other people were like, ooh, I want one of those, I want one of those. One of Shannon's other authors wanted one, so she got one. And then they did a batch of influencer mailings for ARCs of Tropesick and included a couple of t-shirts in those.

Matt: Well, but what's the, the, the significance. What's the backstory? Yearn for what? Or just yearn in gen- Like, I don't understand why everybody wants these shirts?

Lauren:  Well, so it's –

Matt: Is it tied to the book?

Lauren:  Well it's tied to the, the type of male love interest that she writes. Is like a good old fashioned yearner. Those who get it, get it.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  And those who don't, it's okay. But –

Matt: I mean, I yearn for a nice beach with good weather and a cool breeze.

Lauren:  Who among us doesn't?

Matt: So does that count? Or is it bring back men who yearn for specific things?

Lauren:  Yearn romantically, perhaps. In this context.

Matt: Okay. So if you're in the know it’s because you're in the know.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Got it.

Lauren:  Fast forward to BookCon.

Matt: I love when you fast forward through your stories.

Lauren:  There were several people that were wearing it at BookCon, including the – not the author of the original book, but the other author, B.K. Borison, was wearing it at one of her book signings.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  People started asking questions about it. What's going on? Where are these shirts from? What's happening with these shirts? Several days later, Cosmopolitan magazine has written two articles about BookCon. One of them was about the... chaos that was BookCon. The other one was about this shirt.

Matt: Oh wow.

Lauren:  Specifically.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  And that is the kind of viral marketing that you cannot make happen. That is lightning in a bottle –

Matt: You can’t force it.

Lauren:  You cannot force –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  – that to happen.

Matt: Right.

Lauren:  That is just a series of perfect circumstances coming together.

Matt: And whoever's idea was to make those shirts, never in their wildest dreams thought it would probably turn into a Cosmopolitan article.

Lauren:  Absolutely not.

Matt: Right?

Lauren:  But what it actually really just was at its root – I mean, obviously these are people that work for a publishing company –

Matt: Sure.

Lauren:  – one of the Big Five. I'm not saying they don't know what they're doing.

Matt: Right.

Lauren:  But at its heart, where this came from, was a group of dedicated book lovers and readers that loved this particular book and this particular trope, and this particular t-shirt. And that love for that content –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  – has spread into this kind of runaway marketing campaign.

Matt: Alright.

Lauren:  And I am insanely jealous because I've been begging Shannon for one of those shirts for months.

Matt: Why don't you just make one?

Lauren:  I – well, I don't want to steal it. I'm going to wait until they're hopefully, inevitably selling them, and then I'll buy one.

Matt: How are you stealing it if you just make your own?

Lauren:  I'm not saying stealing as in like, I'm like, you know, appropriating something that isn't mine. But it feels a little bit like stolen valor. Like, this is something – which, you know, this is all tying back to the episode topic. But one of the things that makes this a compelling, in-demand and like, you know, buzzed about piece of merch, is its exclusivity. There is a certain like, you have to be in the club, kind of –

Matt: Right.

Lauren:  – to get it.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  And, and so there is that element of it. Where it's like, I want to be in the cool kids club. I mean, I want the shirt because I want the shirt. But I also want to be in the cool kids club of people that had access to the shirt in the first place.

Matt: Well now I want the shirt too.

Lauren:  Well, hopefully they will sell them, and I'll buy two.

Matt: So, Shannon, if you're listening, I would definitely like a shirt. As to whether or not you have one for Lauren, it's whatever. But.

Lauren:  I swear to God if she gives you one.

Matt: I wear a size, a size large. You can send it here to Lulu. Care of Matt. Care of not Lauren. That'd be great.

Lauren:  Sounds great. Sounds great. Maybe we'll –

Matt: Do it Shannon.

Lauren:  Okay. Well.

[5:56] – Episode Topic Intro

Matt: So what are we talking about today?

Lauren:  We'll see how that goes. Today. We're not going to talk about how to recreate that kind of success because that – again, you can't. You can't manufacture that. You can only set the foundations for something like that to happen. And that's what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about how to get your readers and dedicated, loyal fans to sell your book for you.

Matt: Love it. Yeah, any time I don't have to sell? I love it.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, it's great.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  Which this very much is, you know, not a replacement for things like paid advertising or earned promo opportunities, but rather this is a way to –

Matt: Supplemental.

Lauren:  – supplement that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Which I know you say it's not a replacement. And, you know, depending on your your approach, your goals, all of that, you know, it may or may not ever be a replacement. But if your goal is to ultimately get to a place where you're not relying on distributors for selling your books, you're not relying on third party retail channels, you're doing most of it yourself. You will eventually build up such a fan base and a word of mouth engine that you don't have to spend nearly as much money or time on paid ads and the other things that most people are doing to sell lots of books.

Lauren:  Right.

Matt: So ultimately it could lead to –

Lauren:  Actually, I was thinking –

Matt: – or a majority tactic of your sales approach.

Lauren:  That's what it is. We actually talked about this way back when in the episode that we did –

Matt: We did?

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Oh.

Lauren:  In an episode that we did on how to convert casual fans –

Matt: Oh yeah.

Lauren:  – to loyal fans.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Which I will have linked in the show notes. And we talked about the sliding scale of different types of marketing efforts. And that's exactly what this is. In the early days, this kind of marketing effort might be the supplement to your paid and, and more like...

Matt: Right.

Lauren:  – intentional –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  – efforts. And if you do those things well enough and do the audience building well enough then eventually that scale shifts.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren:  And this becomes your primary form of marketing. And the the paid evergreen campaigns are that supplement just to inject new life into it.

Matt: And this, by the way, is not just for writers –

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: – and publishing. Like –

Lauren:  Oh yeah.

Matt: That's just a general business tenet. Like every business would love to have way more word of mouth than anything else. And that is the ultimate goal, where you're not spending money on ads or social media or search engines, things like that, where you're just getting new business all the time through word of mouth.

Lauren: Yes. This is definitely, this is applicable to any, any level of business or entrepreneur –

Matt: Any genre of writing, doesn't matter.

Lauren:  Absolutely. I actually – we're going to run through kind of a variety of different tactics that you can use. And I started and ended with – I started with things that a lot of fiction authors are already doing that I think our nonfiction authors, our content creators, our content entrepreneurs could learn from. And then ending with some tactics that our nonfiction and content creators are probably already doing, but maybe our fiction authors could, could learn from those strategies.

Matt: Yeah. Makes sense.

Lauren:  So this is also, I think if you're a new author or if you're, you know, early stages of building your audience, this might sound a little like, well, I'm not there yet, so I'm not really sure that this relates to me, but I absolutely think that it does. Because I think it could inform some choices that you make for how you make your audience building efforts, like, moving forward from here.

Matt: Yes. It's all relevant, because you should always be planning your marketing strategy for long term benefit. Anybody who goes into their marketing efforts only thinking of the short term is harming themselves.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: So yes, this should still be – even if you're this your first book published, right? And you're way early stages, you should still be thinking about these things. And yeah, it should always be with the lens of long term that you're doing and creating different pieces of marketing content, or utilizing certain marketing tactics. It should always be with an eye to long term.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Yeah, absolutely. So we're going to kind of break this down. We're going to talk about, you know. The only way that you can really do this is by building a dedicated audience in the first place. Which we've done episodes on that, so we're not going to go too deep into that, but we'll talk about it a little bit. And then I'll link those other episodes in the show notes. And then we're going to talk through how to mobilize that dedicated audience, once you have it, a few different strategies for how to do that. Some from fiction authors, some from social media and micro influencer marketing, some from community marketing, and some from, like, incentivized programmatic marketing. And then we'll cover a little bit of just, you know, high level tips and mistakes to avoid when you go to make it happen.

[11:18] – Building Your Audience

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  Alright, let’s go.

Matt: Building an audience.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Shifting from the concept of I'm just going to go and sell to. I need to tell a story about why people should buy this book.

Lauren:  Yes. You know, we have done and we could do more episodes that are deep dives into how to really build a loyal, dedicated audience. But I think that all of that advice and all that strategy and all that how to, really actually just boils down to: you have to give your audience a reason to care about you and a reason to want to talk about you. And you meaning you, your brand, your product, your whatever it is that you are building and sharing with them. I'm not going to go to Matt and be like, yo, I bought these new sneakers. That's it. I bought these new sneakers. You should get them. Why? Like why? Why does he care? What? What am I talking about? Why would –

Matt: Yeah, I’m gonna tell you to get out of my office.

Lauren:  Probably. But if I went to Matt and said, yo, I got these new sneakers and I wore them literally rope drop to close at Magic Kingdom. And you know me, I walk like twenty miles in a day when I'm by myself at Disney. And when I got back to my hotel room that night, my feet didn't even hurt.

Matt: Now I'm interested.

Lauren:  Right. Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  That, you know, that's the point. It's not about the fact that I bought something trendy or cool or whatever. It's that I had a story, I had a reason to tell Matt, there was something that we related to on this that made sense to him, that was building that story and that narrative of like, hey, I came across this thing. I really like it. I think you would like it too. Let me tell you about it.

Matt: Which is the very nature of word of mouth.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Right?

Lauren:  And that's what it is.

Matt: You only go to somebody with something if you either A. loved it, or B. hated it.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: You never go to somebody with something mediocre. Like.

Lauren:  Right.

Matt: You go to your friend and say hey, I went to BookCon, two thumbs down. Don't do it. Or you go to your friend and said hey, went to BookCon. Absolutely loved it, didn't wait in any lines, food was readily available. Okay, I'll stop.

Lauren:  And the whole internet is calling you a liar.

Matt: Well your, your point about the shoes is right, in the way that you present the information. And I think that that's the real point here. The way that you approach people, it needs to come from a place of telling a story, of, of giving them a reason to, to be able to relate. Like, why should they care? You're right. You need to paint that picture for them, so.

Lauren:  You want to build in your audience, in your product, in your community, whatever it is, a reason for people to want to root for you, to want to support you... So that's really what it comes down to.

Matt: Storytelling.

Lauren:  Storytelling.

Matt: Which, everything you do as a writer should be storytelling.

Lauren:  Storytelling and relationship building.

Matt: Alright.

Lauren:  This is not something that you're going to do... or this is not the way that you're going to reach new fans. You're not going to immediately sell them on something that they don't have any kind of connection to, at all whatsoever. This version of storytelling and brand building is to strengthen your relationships within your existing audience, so that they will reach out to new people for you.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Lauren:  It's not your hook. It's your – it might be the thing that keeps new readers interested once they get there. But it's not going to be the thing that is going to make somebody come check you out. It's what's going to keep them invested once they've got there.

Matt: Yeah that makes sense. Yeah.

Lauren:  So once you've done, you know, this, this super easy job of building a small army of fans around you.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  That really dedicated audience.

Matt: Super easy.

Lauren:  Yeah. It's fine, right? We just skipped over all that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  What do you do once you have them?

Matt: You give them jobs.

Lauren:  Yeah you do.

Matt: Roles, responsibilities, labels, badges.

Lauren:  The people yearn for jobs.

Matt: Bring back people that yearn.

Lauren:  For jobs.

Matt: For jobs. On your street team.

Lauren:  We all love a good sense of purpose.

Matt: That's true. Everybody loves a good sense of purpose.

Lauren:  And that can sometimes manifest as I, I feel really excited and included when I am supporting people that I love or care about or am big fans of.

Matt: Right. Which ties back to your t-shirt story.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: At the end of the day, somebody actively chose to wear that t-shirt out in public because they wanted to support that author. They like that story or that author, and they wanted people to know, or come to them and ask them, what does that shirt mean? So they could talk about this particular author.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: Right.

Lauren:  Even my involvement in it from the very beginning. The Best Worst Thing, which was that Lauren's first book, is not a book that I would have picked up on my own accord. But my best friend is the editor, and I wanted to support her, and she was really excited about this book, and I – So I, like –

Matt: That’s a crazy different level of support though.

Lauren:  But I mean, but it started as, like –

Matt: Supporting an author is one thing. Supporting the editor for that author? You are a good friend.

Lauren:  I want to see my friend succeed.

Matt: What if the book was trash?

Lauren:  I would have never told her. It wasn't. I really enjoyed it. I highly recommend it.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  But read the content warnings first.

Matt: I must have missed that early on when you said you only read it because Shannon was the editor.

Lauren: I – well, I didn't. I didn't say that early on, but that's the point of this is what audience building is. I initially was supporting this because I wanted to support my friend that is invested in this in some way or another. So this is word of mouth, realistically. I'm supporting –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – Shannon, because she's supporting Lauren. Okay? And now I'm invested. Now that was my gateway in. But I loved that book enough that I would have ordered Tropesick even if Shannon wasn't the editor.

Matt: You're going to order it just because of the name.

Lauren:  Well, that too.

Matt: And you're going to order any special edition they put out just because of the name.

Lauren:  Duh.

Matt: Like, that's wild.

[17:39] – Street Teams

Lauren:  But that's the point. And that's where you're, you're building these connections, and that's where something like a street team comes in.

Matt: Right, so.

Lauren:  And that's what fiction authors are great at.

Matt: Mobilizing these people.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Let's talk about mobilizing.

Lauren:  Yes. So this is something that I think anybody who's listening, who's not a well-established fiction author, could learn from that group of people. And that is street teams.

Matt: Now, do you think that – cause musicians, bands do this too. And it's been around in music for a long time, street teams. Do you think it was in music first or publishing first?

Lauren:  I think it was probably in music first.

Matt: I do think it came from music first as well.

Lauren:  But it’s –

Matt: Either way, it's a great tactic.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Like, having a street team or a launch team or whatever you want to call it, having a group of people that are fans, friends, family, whatever, that will do these things for you. That will promote your book, that will wear a t-shirt with a weird slogan on it that nobody understands, or whatever that might be.

Lauren:  Yes. We've seen a lot of different ways that people will make use of a street team. The, the primary thing to remember is that it's something that you ask for. Like, it's something that you actually say, hey I'm looking for volunteers –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  – to help me with promotion for my upcoming book. You're going to join my street team and you're going to be responsible for doing x, y, z thing. And in exchange I will give you this. And it's usually unpaid, it's volunteer, but it's usually something like you'll, you'll be on the ARC mailing list. And if not, you'll get early access. So let's say part of my street team is I'm doing a preorder campaign, I need all of you to buy in on that preorder campaign. But I will send your copies out to you early as a thank you, and I'll include some extras in there that is a thank you to my street team. Or, I'm going to need you to turn on alerts on all my Instagram posts and share those when I post them. Like whatever it is, there's, there's things that it's basically just people that are helping get that, like –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  – hype train going.

Matt: Yep.

Lauren:  So that's that's not that hard, honestly. That's a pretty easy thing to start early on. All you need is a few, kind of, people to get involved with it. And that's something that you can grow later on too.

Matt: It doesn't hurt to be strategic as well.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: If you've got a couple of friends that are really good at social media, or they're always on Instagram or Facebook or TikTok or whatever your channels of choice are, and that's just like, those are the people you want to tap first.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Like, don't go to your friend like me, who doesn't really hang out on social media and tries not to go out in public. And really can't be much of a street team help. Like, maybe utilize me as a beta reader for feedback. But you know, street team, you need to be picking people like Lauren who lurk in all the rooms and all the social media channels and all the book related places, nooks, and crannies.

Lauren:  I mean, you're not wrong, except for that last part, because you I am actually also not a good candidate for something like this.

Matt: I disbelieve that.

Lauren:  Because of – because of the word that you just used, where you said lurk.

Matt: Okay, change the word.

Lauren:  You want somebody – But no – but that – you’re right. You want somebody who is actively posting or promoting this kind of content. You do want to be selective. There is a reason that I did not get a man who yearn a shirt, because it would have been a waste to give it to me, because the only people that would ever see it would be the people that watch the video of this episode. So, you know, that's and that's not a valuable use of a resource like that. Which is also true –

Matt: See Shannon, that's another reason not to send her one. But you should send me one.

Lauren:  I'm going to make you your own, but it'll be different.

Matt: I don't want stolen valor. Okay.

[21:44] – Advance Reader Copies

Lauren:  This is also, you know, similar to the idea of be selective, is –

Matt: Yes.

Lauren:  ARCs and advanced reader copies. And this is something that has been, kind of buzzed a lot about lately, in the wake of BookCon. Because it's something that I think people get so hung up on the, the demand for it that they forget that it has a purpose, and they forget that they're not entitled to it.

Matt: Oh my gosh. I think some of the worst behavior that we saw was around people trying to get their hands on ARCs.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: Which is wild.

Lauren:  Yes. It's, it's, I think – First of all –

Matt: But I think this is the point that you're making –

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: – is the exclusivity and scarcity aspect.

Lauren:  Yes. And that is absolutely what it is. Is anything like that, whether it's advance reader copies or limited exclusive merch or something like that, the, the very nature of it being a very limited run of something automatically inspires demand.

Matt: Yeah. The flip side of that is, you know, we were next to our friends at Booktrovert, and they were doing their ARCs digitally, ebooks. So they never ran out. Their lines always seemed to be mostly orderly.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: I didn't see any fights break out in their lines.

Lauren:  Yup.

Matt: It seemed as though the the lack of that scarcity element or exclusivity element didn't hinder their ability necessarily. But the flip side of that is where you saw all of the activity, or most of the activity, was in those areas and with those publishers, in those booths, where that element of scarcity and exclusivity was very present.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: To the point where people had no idea when and where the ARC drop was going to happen until like five minutes before it did.

Lauren:  Yes. And there were mobs about it.

Matt: And it was like Black Friday –

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: – over and over and over again.

Lauren:  Yes. Absolutely.

Matt: Insane.

Lauren:  But it is, you know, it continues to be something that even for smaller indie authors, self-published authors like, there is still that kind of intrigue around that. There's always – never underestimate the power of people, like wanting to, wanting to be the first to get their hands on something.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Like, yeah, absolutely. Because again, advance the advance part of of advance reader copies. It's going to be these are the first people to get it. These are the first ones to see it. They're going to know something that other people don't know. There's a little bit of a status symbol to it. And that's, that kind of thing, like, can really be powerful. That can be a small way to inspire interest, inspire demand, inspire engagement, and some of these other things that we're going to talk about in the next section. But it's also something that, you know, you don't have to go crazy with. You can always create print ARCs using Lulu. And we have seen authors and also some smaller publishers that have done that, cause you can get –

Matt: We’ve seen anywhere from individual authors all the way up to medium and almost large size publishers.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Yeah, you can definitely do that. You can also use, like, BookFunnel. It's something that's not that hard to do. It's something that can –

Matt: NetGalley also.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Yes. It's something that can inspire a lot of interest and engagement. And it's also something that you can use as an incentive or reward. For some of these other things.

Matt: Yeah. I think ARCs are becoming the new special editions.

Lauren:  They are, which is wild. But there are ways for you to use that.

Matt: Yeah. To your advantage, for sure.

Lauren:  There are ways for you to use that for sure. So learn from that.

Matt: And you know, when you're using a service like Lulu or a POD provider, it's so easy for you to swap out the cover, right? So your interior file, you can slide a page in there in the front that speaks to the fact that this is an ARC copy. It's not for resale. You know, final product may change in terms of, you know, you may go through one more final edit. But you can also put a different cover on it.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: That clearly states – like that's the point too, right? Like, this is an ARC copy. You know, this was handed out at whatever whatever event. Or you know, this was given out in exchange for – whatever, doesn't matter. And then the final product, you just go back in and swap out with the new cover or whatever you need to do. So that makes it really easy to be able to do printed ARCs –

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: – for your street teams and people that are helping you out.

[26:30] – Micro-Influencers and Social Proof

Lauren:  Like, for example, shifting topics: micro-influencers. Which I think is something that – I know, I see Matt’s hesitation, and I'm sure anyone listening heard the hesitation in that silence for a second. And I understand. I understand as somebody who used to do social media marketing, I don't particularly want to work with influencers either. But that's why I'm putting the emphasis on micro-influencers. Because I think that that holds a lot of weight in specific industries or niche communities, or spaces.

Matt: Mostly BookTok.

Lauren:  Well yes, but somebody who is a general BookTok-er with a million followers that reads 500 books a year. I don't know if I –

Matt: Is that possible?

Lauren:  Yeah. I mean, if that’s your job.

Matt: 500 books a year?

Lauren:  Don't get hung up on the numbers.

Matt: I am getting hung up on the numbers.

Lauren:  The point is that that's somebody that –

Matt: That’s a lot of books.

Lauren:  – I’m not sure that I really care about their review of something one way or another.

Matt: Why?

Lauren:  Because. Because they're spreading their attention so thin on these different books. You know, maybe this is the only book in that genre that they've ever read. So does that matter? Do I care about their opinion on this? Do I even know if they actually read it? Did they just skim it? As opposed to –

Matt: Gotcha.

Lauren:  – if I was following somebody who had a thousand followers but only read sports romance and highly, highly, highly recommended a book and didn't just say this is the next Heated Rivalry, but said this is also in line with these other smaller, less well known authors that I like all their stuff too. That, that adds validity to me. That makes me say, oh, I actually trust this person because they know what they're talking about.

Matt: Yeah, it’s –

Lauren:  They've given authority here.

Matt: It's the Kardashian effect. So, you know, one of the Kardashians goes on social media or TV and tells you you should buy this brand of makeup, whatever, they're getting paid to tell you that, right? But again, some smaller influencer that you see every day on TikTok testing out different kinds of makeups, you're probably going to take their opinion a little more seriously.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: A. they're probably not getting paid to shill that particular type of makeup. And B., if you've been sort of a patron of their channel for a period of time, you've, you've come to establish a level of comfortability with the things that they, they say. The trustability of what they're, what they're doing and what they're offering. So yeah, I agree with that. Like, I don't – I run the other direction if some big celebrity is saying, hey, you should, you know, buy this brand of paper towels. Like.

Lauren:  Right.

Matt: No, you don't even use paper towels. Like, get out of here. I'm not going to buy your paper towels.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: But if I'm following some person on TikTok who happens to also run a cleaning service, and they do funny videos about cleaning, and they have a specific brand of paper towel they always use because it's the best. I'll probably buy those paper towels. And they might only have 1,000 2,000 followers.

Lauren:  Yes. There is that... I don't want to say borrowed credibility, because obvious, that's obvious when it comes to influencers. But I think the thing that micro influencers have that the macro level ones don't is actually, like, their own dedicated fans.

Matt: Right.

Lauren:  There are smaller influencers that I follow, content creators, people that I'm just like, I like their, I like their stuff. I like what they're doing. I think their videos are funny, or I think their, their book recommendations are usually good, or whatever. And not only am I paying attention to what they're saying, and I'm more inclined to listen to them to what they're saying, but they can also like... Because I'm a fan of theirs, I get excited for them when they get opportunities that are something that is a good thing for them. So if they've talked about they've read every book by this author and they love this author so much, and then all of a sudden one day they get a PR package in the mail from that author and they, and they're so clearly excited to post that and share that. Not only am I excited –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  – for them, but now I'm kind of a little endeared to that author, too, because I'm like, oh look, you did a good thing. You made somebody that I like happy. And now I'm more inclined –

Matt: Really smart play by that author. Which is what we’re talking about.

Lauren:  And that's –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Yes, that's what I'm talking about. This is relationship building. This is where you go connect with people through other people. And that's where I think micro-influencers are really useful. Not in the traditional way that we think of influencer marketing, but that building relationships through relationships kind of marketing.

Matt: So find yourself some micro influencers on social media.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: If you don't have relationships with any already. Micro-influencer’s... I think still somewhat of a broad term, to a degree. Not when you compare it to macro influencer, but micro influencer could be a number of different people. It could be literally one of your friends.

Lauren:  Yup.

Matt: Who also happens to have a decent following, or family member. Or it could be somebody you don't actually know, but by reaching out and trying to establish that relationship with them and talk about, you know, I've got this new book coming out or whatever that might be, I think you'd really enjoy it. Can I send you a copy? Whatever whatever, I mean. There's a number of different ways to approach and start a relationship with a micro influencer.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Right?

Lauren:  And if you're not super comfortable with the idea of cold promotion on something like that, reaching out to somebody that isn't familiar with your or that you don't know for sure. Start by going through any available user generated content or social proof that has already been shared with you. When people tag you in things – which first of all, it is okay to ask for. It is absolutely okay for you to be like, hey I'd love to see my book out in the wild, if you're reading a physical copy of my book anywhere and you're willing to like, snap a picture of you in whatever city you're in and tag –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  – the book in the city, that'd be cool. I'd love to see all the different places it reached in the world. Give people a prompt, give them something, give them like, you know, clear direction of this is what I'd love to see, I'd love to see more of this. And then pay attention to what actually gets shared with you. And you might go see a cute picture that someone tagged. And then you click on it and it turns out that person has a pretty decent following. And if they did that just for the fun of it, because they saw you asking for it, that's your in. Now it's your time to go hey, you want to, you want to do something, like, more official? You want to do a PR kit –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  – or I'll send you an ARC or something?

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  So that's that's how you build on that and that's where you start. And then there's always, you know, testimonials, reader reviews that you know are legitimate, not the ones that are posted by bots on third party retailers and other places. But, you know, if you see a video of somebody talking about how much they loved your book, share that. Ask them if you can share it.

Matt: Yeah.

[34:09] – Community and Belonging

Matt: For those that have the stomach for it, we can transition from social to community.

Lauren:  And this is also where we're transitioning from practices that a lot of fiction authors are used to, to practices that the nonfiction and content entrepreneur audiences are used to. So.

Matt: Yeah, I mean, to a degree.

Lauren:  I think that the those first two sections were things that are fiction authors are going to gravitate towards that first. And now these second two, I think are things that that a lot of content creators are already doing. So.

Matt: Yeah, I mean.

Lauren:  But you can still use them.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Either way, whether you're fiction or nonfiction or whatever.

Matt: I think, you know, community right now, and for the last couple years, has almost been somewhat of a business model for a lot of content entrepreneurs.

Lauren:  Well, community in like the actual membership...

Matt: That's right.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: You know, whether it's, you know, Patreon or Circle community or other forms, you know, the Discord groups from few years ago, back when that was way more popular. Whatever that is, just community. Community as the idea of an actual place.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: You know, usually digital, obviously, where you're having people sort of congregate and whether that's over a shared concept of whatever or, you know. There's, there's multiple things going on there. But it is something that is often more relegated to the creator economy world, where people are creating content, often of a nonfiction nature, you’re right. And then having others come in and, you know, they're paying extra to be part of this community, to get, you know, supplemental or extra stuff or whatever that might be. Versus, you know, in the world of fiction, you've always had this loosely defined community, which basically just meant you got a bunch of fans all over the world that like your stuff.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: Right? If you're lucky. But there's no like, centralized place necessarily. Like, you know, fans will sometimes take it upon themselves to create like a Facebook group or something. But, I think content entrepreneurs do a really good job of formalizing that into an actual space. Like, you know – and typically there's a, there's, there's an element of pay to play there, right? Like, be a part of the community, it's $5 a month. Substack is a great example of that. You know, when all these newsletter services started coming about where you would pay to be a part of this. I mean, that's a form of community –

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: – to a degree. So I think that's a really good idea. I do agree with you that I think it's more in the nonfiction world these days, and the content entrepreneurs, but certainly something where fiction authors could really, I think, accelerate book sales.

Lauren:  I think so too, and I think that there's a lot of room for experimentation in there. I think, especially when it comes to something like audience building? Maybe fiction authors are like, you know, I don't, I don't really necessarily see how I could, you know, provide enough content to fill that on a regular basis as a, as a, an author. I'm somebody who puts out one or two books a year. Content entrepreneurs are putting out smaller form content.

Matt: Short form, yeah.

Lauren:  On a, like, you know, much more frequent basis. But maybe you and for other authors that all write in your same niche subgenre together, want to join together and start a community that is for fans of that subgenre. And all five of you are kind of in there bringing in different members of your audience, and between you, you've got enough content to keep it going. Or really just to get it started.

Matt: Well, that's also the myth about communities.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Is that the, the, the, you know, the person who starts the community, you know, in this instance, we're talking about an author or a couple, that they're the ones that are, that are, you know, in there propagating all the content, all of the conversation. And that's actually not what it should be.

Lauren:  Right.

Matt: That's the opposite of what a community should be. And I think that's why a lot of communities fail is because, you know, you think you have to go in there and just kind of, sort of navigate and drive all of the conversation, all the content. You want to get it to a point where your fans, your readers, they're in there, they're the ones that are really driving a lot of the conversations that –

Lauren:  Right.

Matt: – you don't even have to be present half the time. If you have to be present in order for that community to work all the time, then it's a fail.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: So.

Lauren:  Yes. And that's why community is in this episode topic. Because this is, if you're doing it right, if you're building it right, this is where you're saying instead of me going into community spaces and selling my book to people, the people that are in the community are already committed to buying it. They're already committed to regularly checking in on my content, on other people's content. They're active participants. They're no longer like, just passive fans that get a new book once a year and that's it. And they're not really thinking about you in the off time. They're now actively engaged in this space that you are a part of. Not that you are the commander of the ship, but just a place where you are too. And so are other like minded fans and other, maybe other creators, maybe other authors, maybe just people hanging out.

Matt: You just create a community of yearning.

Lauren:  It's – the people yearn for community.

Matt: Just let a bunch of dudes come and get in that community and yearn.

Lauren:  Well. That sounds creepy.

Matt: It does, doesn't it?

Lauren:  It does.

Matt: Maybe edit that out.

Lauren:  No, I’m leaving that in.

Matt: Gross.

Lauren:  But I think, I think the thing to keep in mind there is that the more, the more people feel like actively a part of something, the more that they are going to be invested in –

Matt: That's right.

Lauren:  – promoting it, sharing it, bringing other people into it and supporting it. The more that you can get people invested in feeling like they are participating in this, the more they're going to care about actually participating in it.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Which is why even if you are not willing to, you know, go through all the steps of setting up, a membership, community, something like that. There are still ways to inspire that level of belonging and community in a shared group of people. Give them – give your fans something to root for. Give them something... you know, give them a mascot. Make them all really big fans of your dog. And every update that you share about your dog, you've got 100 people excited about it. And if you don't share one, then people are like, where’s the dog? Where’s the dog?

Matt: You know.

Lauren:  What's happening here?

Matt: Ann Handley did that with a ladybug.

Lauren:  She's done that with a bunny too.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Yes. She’s really good at that.

Matt: She had a ladybug that was in her house that she would give updates on it in her newsletters.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: And it just became a running thing for a little while. And I think people were invested in that for some reason.

Lauren:  You never know what people are going to get invested in.

Matt: That's true.

Lauren:  What's going to give people a reason to care? Maybe a common enemy. You know? I love – I love that. I always joke about, like, the best way to bond with a new group of friends is to have a shared enemy. Like, if you're all on a trip –

Matt: So this coming from the woman dressed in all black, that's an elder emo, I don't think it's going to surprise anybody.

Lauren:  No, it shouldn't. It absolutely shouldn’t. The point is that there are ways to inspire belonging and community in people without the confines of a formal community or membership space. And whatever that may be, lean into it. Go for it.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Because the more people feel like they belong, the more they want to share that with other people, that they are connected to themselves.

Matt: Yeah. I agree. And it doesn't always have to be monetized initially.

Lauren:  No, of course not.

Matt: A lot of those groups or platforms, you know, you can set it up with it's, you know, there's no fee being charged. Or you can start small and start with, you know, a newsletter. If you're not sure about launching a full blown community, like start with a newsletter or Substack or, you know, one of those others or something like that. Where you know, if you want to you can charge a couple bucks per month, or per newsletter, however you want to do it, whatever that might be.

[42:53] – Affiliate and Referral Programs

Matt: If you are interested in ways of incentivizing people though, as well as potentially having that come back to you in the form of book sales, which is what it's about, you can institute things like an affiliate program or, you know, referral bonuses or things like that. I don't know what it would cost at an individual level to have an affiliate platform that you're using. Somebody who's in the early stages... It's probably not something you would want to mess with, because of the the cost involved in having an affiliate. But as you scale, and you see a lot of these authors that are, you know, they've got catalogs of ten or more books, things like that. Where, you know, you can put an affiliate program in place and basically it incentivizes people to, to send buyers back to your, your website or to, to buy your books. There's obviously Amazon affiliate programs and things like that too. So, I don't think we'll dive too much into affiliate stuff, but just know that there are platforms and tools and things out there like affiliate programs and referral programs, and – I mean, referral, you can kind of do a little more manually.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: But still, like, these are ways to incentivize people to send traffic to you to buy your book because they're getting some sort of incentive in return for each one.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: Right?

Lauren:  And I think that they’re – we, we won't stay on this for too long, but I think that they’re something that people overlook because they tend to assume that it's either difficult to manage or that there's a lot of moving parts when it comes to like, oh, well, that means I have to make a promo code for it, or I have to give people discounts or access to like discounted products or whatever, or I don't have enough going on there. One of the most frequent ways that I've seen affiliate marketing work in book spaces specifically, is with book subscription boxes. This used to be a really big thing, I don't know if it's still as active or as popular. But they would do affiliate marketing where they would have book influencers that would apply for like a three or six month affiliate program, and they would get advance – like, they would get the same box as everybody else, they would just get it like a week ahead of time so that they would have time to take some really nice photos –

Matt: Right.

Lauren:  – and promote it the day that it came out.

Matt: Yeah. Tease out the content.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  So it was really just early access more than anything else. And then the, the other incentive that you could be a referral or affiliate or even for a micro influencer relationship or anything was they would give, giveaway content. So let's say that I wanted Matt to share my new book with his audience. And I said, hey could you –

Matt: Means you’d have to write it first.

Lauren:  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm working on it.

Matt: Or finish it, I should say.

Lauren:  Sure or halfway there. But, you know, let's say I wanted you to do that. And I said, okay, I'm going to send you an advance copy of it with some additional, like, I'm gonna template out anything that you need to say for it, make it really, really easy for you. I'm also going to send you two extra copies that you can use as a giveaway when you share this –

Matt: Right.

Lauren:  – post on your, on your feed. And ultimately, that's not costing me a whole lot, but it could get either reaffirming your relationship with that influencer, or get some new engagement, new fans, new interested parties from their page over to yours.

Matt: Well, that one actually has another added benefit, really, what you're doing is investing in that influencer. So if you're giving them extra copies, they can hold their own giveaway that allows them to do something that will in turn hopefully net them some more new followers.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Because if they're running giveaways for this advance copy, or whatever that might be, of this particular book, then word gets out that they've got a contest they're running, or a giveaway. More people are going to come to their page or their channel or whatever it is they're doing. So you're kind of also giving them some ammunition, some tools to help them continue to build their own audience, which in turn then fuels the traffic they send back to you. So that one's actually a really good idea, by sending a couple of extra copies or whatever that might be.

[47:16] – Making it Happen

Lauren:  Well, and this is a great segue way to the last section that I want to run through. Which are just some things to to remember to do and not to do when you're going to make this happen. And one of those is to make it worth it.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Whether it's make it worth it to your fans. You know you want, you want to give them something of value that will incentivize them.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Whether it's a discount, a good early access, even just acknowledgement. You know, never –

Matt: I've seen street teams being listed in the back of, of books –

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: – under acknowledgments and things.

Lauren:  Yes, quite literally listed in the acknowledgments. I've seen people that will run contests for, you know, whoever gets the most engagement on a post promoting my book will have a character named after them in the next book.

Matt: That's a cool idea.

Lauren:  You know, a minor character or something like that. Just shouting out, like shouting people out on your page. If they're really dedicated fans of yours, that alone could be –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  – exciting. Something like that. But also make it worth it for the people that you're partnering with. Remember that it is a partnership. This is not usually something that is paid in the sense that it is a one way street. They are doing you a service and you are doing nothing back.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren:  And that's where these like giveaway copies come in. You are making it worth that influencer's investment in time, space, real estate on their page, whatever it is, because you're giving them something that could potentially benefit them. And if their audience grows because of something that you did for them, they are going to be more willing to return the favor.

Matt: Absolutely. Yeah. Your goal is to sell more books. Their goal is to grow more followers onto the channels that they, that they have, so.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Yeah, any time you can aid in that, they're going to be extremely, extremely thankful.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: And want to continue working with you.

Lauren:  Yes. Yeah. And then one of the other ones that I just said in there too, make it easy for people to promote or share your content. Justin talked about this when he talked about, when – his earned promo efforts for Sponsor Magnet. That he had a landing page on his website that he would send people that was just like a press kit, that was everything they needed. It had downloadable files with the cover art of the book, pre-made graphics that were sized for all the social channels, copy that they could use, whether it was short form, longer form, mid-roll, whatever it was. Like, he provided everything –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  – that somebody could need, to make it as easy as possible for them. So that absolutely is something that you're going to want to do. Create easily shareable things.

Matt: Yeah. But ultimately, like you said, I mean, you're already asking them to do you a solid, you know? In, in many cases for free, in some cases not so much. But making it easy for them to, to follow through is, is the smart play there.

Lauren:  Right.

Matt: It's no different than if we're being asked to speak somewhere. Oftentimes, right before the event, they'll send us a bunch of social media assets that they've already created that have our pictures on it, that say, hey, I'm speaking at whatever, whatever. So literally all you and I have to do is just take that asset and post it. We don't have to –

Lauren:  Yup.

Matt: – spend an hour in Canva making our own, which we won't. We don't have to bug our graphic design team to create those assets, because in many cases we probably won't.

Lauren:  Right.

Matt: But when, when somebody makes it really easy to share content, I mean, yeah, it's just a click of a button and it's done. So it would, it would stand to reason that if you're asking people, you know, street team or otherwise, friends, family, it doesn't matter, to do you a solid and promote, you know or talk about your book. Make it as easy as possible.

Lauren:  Yep.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Which also leads to my last one, which is make it a team effort. Make people feel like they are part of the effort towards the shared goal.

Matt: So team jerseys is what I'm hearing?

Lauren:  Absolutely.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren:  Love a good jersey.

Matt: Named and numbered?

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: Yeah?

Lauren:  Of course. Always.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren:  But no it is something that you know, you want people to feel like they're a part of this. You want people to feel included. People are always more invested in something they feel like they're an active participant in. And that also means that you want to thank them for their involvement. Don't – Don't forget to...

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Show your appreciation for your team, when the effort has has been made.

Matt: Yeah. Most definitely.

Lauren:  Because that's the easiest way to alienate that audience. If they put effort into supporting you –

Matt: Hey, do me this favor – and then you don't thank them, or you don't –

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: You know, it's, it's kind of almost like an afterthought.

Lauren:  Yeah. That’s a bummer.

Matt: Thanks. Yeah.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: A lot of authors are really good at that.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: I've seen people posting the thank you packages they got, or a handwritten card and, you know, whatever. I think that's that's your opportunity, or those are the opportunities, you know. Whether it's thanking somebody for being a part of your street team or, you know, any other number of things that they did to help promote your book. Those are the real opportunities for you as the creator to solidify relationships with people. Again, thinking about the long term, right? You know, six months from now, two years from now, whenever your next book drops, they're going to be first in line to help you promote it.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Just don't underestimate the very small, simple benefits of somebody made me care about them slightly more than, than being completely neutral about it.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  I hand sold a copy of a book at BookCon to somebody. We were just kind of walking around, and I pointed to it and was like, this was the signing I didn't get to go to, but it's okay, because I actually already have a signed copy of this book. I just really wanted to meet her, so that's fine. And there was a girl on the other side of the table that was like, oh, you you were going to get another signed copy of this book even though you already have one? And I was like, yeah, I actually own every book that's on this table that she wrote. But I was still going to buy one, if that's what it took to get her to sign it. And –

Matt: The fact that that girl didn't immediately walk away...

Lauren:  No. Five minutes later, she walked away with a copy of the book to go buy it.

Matt: After you yapped her ear off –

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: – for another five minutes.

Lauren:  Yes. And but that, like.

Matt: Yeah. That's the point.

Lauren:  That's what happens when you build a dedicated audience and loyal fans.

Matt: They sell books for you.

Lauren:  They sell books for you.

Matt: That's what you did.

Lauren:  I’m really good at it.

Matt: Yeah?

Lauren:  That's also how I got my job at the bookstore.

Matt: You should go sell some of my books.

Lauren:  Sure. I'd love to.

Matt: I'm just kidding.

Lauren:  I sent you that great still from the episode today.

Matt: You did actually, yeah.

Lauren:  Yeah. I'll make you a... Instagram post of that content. No problem. Can’t sell my own book –

Matt: I'll post it.

Lauren:  Great. Well, gotta make it easy for people to share your content –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – when you want them to.

Matt: Definitely gotta make it easy for me.

Lauren:  I know.

Matt: I'm lazy.

Lauren:  We'll get there. It’s alright.

[54:26] – Episode Recap and Wrap Up

Lauren:  I think there are a lot of different ways that people can get really creative and fun with all different types of promotional efforts, sales efforts, street teams, communities, whatever. But at the end of the day, this entire episode probably could have been summarized as the way that you get your readers to sell your book for you is by making them dedicated, loyal fans of you and your brand.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's the that's the the headline, right?

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: But I mean, you know, a lot of these tactics, I think, are important for people to understand. Building street teams and, you know, the importance of ARCs, and some of that other stuff. And then, you know, talking about the difference between macro and micro influencers, how you approach them, you know, why you would want to work with one versus the other? I think, yes, that's the headline.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: But there's a lot of... there's a lot of meat in there that I think is important for people, especially in the early to middle stages of, of their author careers. And understanding that, you know, building that ecosystem is extremely important. Nobody wants to do this on their own. It's not easy. And so when you can build yourself a little army, I think that just exponentially increases your success rate.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: So. Yup. Okay. I'm tired.

Lauren:  Alright, let's get out of here.

Matt: I need a nap.

Lauren:  I need another Monster.

Matt: What do your bracelets say?

Lauren:  I'm so glad you asked. Because one of them – I know we're not numbering these episodes in the episode anymore, but this is episode 118. Okay? And I have a bracelet that says the 118.

Matt: Why?

Lauren:  Because the 118 is the firehouse in 911.

Matt: The TV show 911?

Lauren:  The TV show 911.

Matt: Okay, okay. Alright. What do your other bracelets say?

Lauren:  Hell or Glory and Screaming.

Matt: Got it. Interesting.

Lauren:  In a mood. But I did specifically pick the 118 because I knew we were recording episode 118 today.

Matt: Alright.

Lauren:  So.

Matt: Coordination.

Lauren:  Yep.

Matt: I like it.

Lauren:  I do what I can.

Matt: Lots of black in those bracelets.

Lauren:  Well, I had to match.

Matt: Again, coordination.

Lauren:  Exactly. And –

Matt: You’re nothing if not coordinated.

Lauren:  You know, we actually match today in general.

Matt: Close.

Lauren:  Yeah. If you want to match us, you can do so by... we don't have a street team. I was going to say joining our street team. We don't have a street team.

Matt: Make sure you have the right shades of black on, though.

Lauren:  Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  You can't join our street team, but you can do all the things. Where you like, subscribe, leave us a review, leave us a comment, email us, say hi, watch our videos, listen to our episodes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  All the things.

Matt: I mean, it's kind of like a street team.

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: If you did all those things.

Lauren:  Pretty much.

Matt: We would certainly owe you some sort of thank you package.

Lauren:  We should get new stickers.

Matt: New stickers?

Lauren:  Yeah.

Matt: What would you put on it?

Lauren:  I don't know. If you're listening and you have an idea for a cool Publish & Prosper sticker, leave a comment somewhere.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  And if we like it, maybe we'll make it.

Matt: That's fair.

Lauren:  Only one way to find out.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren:  Until then, though, you can always tune in next week to another new episode.

Matt: Which would also be cool.

Lauren:  Thanks. Thanks for doing that.

Matt: Yep. Later.

Lauren:  Thanks for listening.

[57:55] – End Credits

Matt: We should start cutting these down to like, fifteen minutes.

Lauren:  Okay, so we're done.

Matt: Almost, we’re at fourteen.

Lauren:  Episode over, thanks for listening. Bring back men who yearn. Preorder Tropesick.

Matt: Oh my goodness.