Lauren: Are you ready for this?

Matt: I like how you ask that after I'm already, like, all strapped in.

Lauren: Oh, yeah you're, you're stuck.

Matt: Like, there's no, you know.

Lauren: There’s nowhere for you to go.

[Podcast Intro]

Lauren: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Publish & Prosper. And today we're gonna talk about Taylor Swift.

Matt: So this might be the last episode for Publish & Prosper. We'll see.

Lauren: No no no no. Cause hear me out. I would make the argument that if you are a hater or an anti-Swiftie, this episode is still for you. Because if you're somebody that has sat here over, over her career and said I think, I think she's a hack, I think she's talentless, I don't understand why she has a big following, how does she like have – how, how does anyone support her art or her music or whatever, what does she have that other artists don't? If you've ever sat there and wondered like, what, what is she doing that is making this work when I don't understand any of why people care about her in the first place?

Matt: I mean, do people say these things?

Lauren: Absolutely they do.

Matt: Why?

Lauren: Well, people can't get her name out of their mouths. I know people that hate her that talk about her more than I do.

Matt: I – I'm not a fan –

Lauren: But –

Matt: – but I don't hate her. I mean. Like I don't listen to her stuff, but I know she's done some cool things. And I'm assuming we're going to talk about some of those, but.

Lauren: She has. And we are.

Matt: I don’t – I don't have the energy to hate on her, I don't care.

Lauren: I'm not going to get up on my soapbox, but there are plenty of musicians that I don't like that nobody knows I don't like them, because I don't make it a personality trait of mine to talk about how much I don't like them. So that's neither here nor there.

Matt: Oh, okay.

Lauren: Okay.

[2:11] – Episode Topic Intro

Lauren: The point is that –

Matt: What is the point actually, yeah?

Lauren: – is that love her or hate her or, or feel completely neutral about her, she has been putting on a masterclass in marketing for the last 15 years. Minimum.

Matt: 15 years?

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. So today we are going to cover 13 lessons.

Matt: 13 of ‘em?

Lauren: 13. If you know, you know. 13 lessons that Taylor Swift has taught me about marketing. And we're going to see how we can convert those into practices that indie authors and creators can use on their own.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: Sound good?

Matt: Maybe you want to phrase that differently?

Lauren: No.

Matt: Okay. Let's go.

Lauren: So, first of all, I did kind of break this down into four different sections within these lessons. Obviously, I could have done way more than 13. If you don't know, 13 is, is kind of a, an important recurring number in Taylor Swift's lore and brand building. So that's an intentional reference. And this is also, spoiler alert, one of the things we're going to talk about. This, like, overarching lore, having this narrative and having this overarching –

Matt: I see.

Lauren: – lore and inside references and stuff like that with your audience. So we're going to break these lessons into lessons on audience building, on pre-launch marketing, on products and marketing, and on repeating the cycle and making this something that you can do over and over again.

Matt: Are these the official marketing terms for these activities?

Lauren: No. Why, do you want to rename them?

Matt: I just wasn't sure how deep you were going.

Lauren: I mean, I'm not – I'm not reinventing marketing here.

Matt: Well, you're making it sound like she has.

Lauren: I don't think she has at all. I also, I will say – credit where credit is due to not just her, but everybody else. Nothing in here is new. Everything in here is something that I can think of at least one other artist, creator, author, brand, whatever, who has done this too. And some of them might even do it better. But it's the way that she implements all of these, and more, that build on each other. And I think those are important takeaways.

Matt: Yeah, I subscribe to the theory that – which I think is somewhat Stoic or Buddhist – that nothing is new. So. People like to argue that. Alright.

Lauren: I like that.

Matt: Well, let's go, cause I'm anxious to hear this, but also anxious to get it over with.

Lauren: I'm sure you are. And that's okay.

Matt: Let's rip this Taylor Swift bandaid off.

Lauren: Let's do it. Alright.

[4:55] – Lesson 1

Lauren: So lesson one.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: I would argue that the first lesson and the last lesson are the most important ones we're gonna do.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: So lesson one: build a community, not an audience.

Matt: Okay. I mean, that's... I'm going to try not to use the word obvious.

Lauren: No, I think all of these are obvious.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: But I think it's... it's okay to be obvious –

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: – if you're talking about like... You know, sometimes the tried and true obvious strategies are the ones that you should go with. You do not have to reinvent the wheel. You do not have to create some new thing that no one has ever done before. You just have to be good at doing the things that work.

Matt: So how does she build community well? Like, why, why is this a thing? And I know it's a thing –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – for this particular person. What do you think were the things that really set it off? If I'm an author or creator and I'm listening to this right now, and I'm deciding whether or not to turn this off... like, what is it that Taylor Swift has done or does in this sort of area? What tactics, what sort of strategy or approach, where I could walk away from this and go, oh, let me give that a try.

Lauren: Well, first of all, she has absolutely perfected the illusion of speaking directly to her fans.

Matt: Why do you say illusion?

Lauren: Because obviously she's not speaking directly to any of us. She's not – although she used to, which even that is something that that I could argue is a part of this community building. But like, she doesn't speak to the general masses, like she she addresses her fans in a way that feels like she's speaking to you. Whether that's with with her craft, like, any time that she's, she's doing any kind of like acceptance or thank you or anything she always talks about her fans and, and how much they've given back to her. But that is also, I think, something that is actually easier for indie authors and creators to do. Because one of the, one of the key –

Matt: It’s the only thing you can do –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – as an indie author.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: What's the next helpful tip?

Lauren: It's that. It is, it is giving the impression or reality that you are connecting directly with your audience. That you are not just this, like, creator on high who is handing down content and then never engaging with your community ever again. You're in the trenches. You're on the ground with them. You're responding to them, feeding back and forth between you. It's not a one way street, it’s a two way street. Or it feels like one at least. And I think that's something that she has perfected over time. Kind of within that, something that that she's done that I think is helpful for a lot of creators to do more of, is that she lets that community flourish on its own. Like the whole friendship bracelet thing. She started that from like, there's a line in a song. That's it. And the fans took that and ran with it. And she embraced that fully. She never tried to take it over. She never tried to stop people from making friendship bracelets, or tried to ban them, or tried – like she doesn't even sell, like she sells merch that has, like, friendship beads and bracelets and stuff on them. But she's never tried to like, I'm making officially licensed Taylor Swift bracelets, and you guys are not allowed to make your own and sell them, or hand them out, or do whatever with that. Like she, she fully like, embraced that movement within the fandom and supports it and folded it into the, the overarching narrative of the Eras Tour, but didn't try to control it. Just, just encouraged it and let it happen. And I think that's a big part of community building, is letting it build on itself.

Matt: It's also a scary part.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So if anybody hasn’t figured this out yet, I'm sitting in this chair as a listener today.

Lauren: Yes. You are.

Matt: As a, as a creator. So there's a scary element to that. It, it's all fine and good when you have 50 million fans. But there's also an element of she really didn't have a choice but to let it happen.

Lauren: Sure.

Matt: Right? Like, when you're that large and, and your fans are doing things, there's – for the average person listening to this podcast, if they're still listening. Their follower counts could range anywhere from 50 to 50,000, you know? Maybe a little bit more. And building community, while I agree is extremely important beyond just an audience, I think it's not so simple. It's hard to just say, you know, maybe somebody takes a line out of one of my books and runs with it. The example was took a line out of a song and created friendship bracelets.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: So, I think you'd have to drill down a little bit deeper and say, building a community versus an audience, yes, it's about letting them flourish on their own under the umbrella of your brand or of your content. But you have to be the spark and the catalyst there. So for her, you know, again, it was a line in a song. And somebody was bound to see that, extract it, and turn it into this phenomenon of grown ass women creating friendship. Which is actually kind of cool. Like, I'm not going to knock on that. So. However, again, for the average creator or author listening to this, it takes a much deeper level of involvement. Like, you can't just hope that somebody read your book and pulls a line out of it and turns it into some sort of like thing that's associated with your brand. Like you're going to have to be in that community, regularly engaging and having conversations. There's good and bad that comes with that. You're putting yourself out there on the internet, and so there going to be times where that community's not so fun. But if it's important to you, if you're trying to achieve a certain level of success or notoriety, whatever it might be, it's just something you have to do. So I think if you look at some of the specific things that she did with respects to building a community, they're probably helpful. You know, one of the examples you have listed is, you know, naming her fans. Right? Now, I don't know if she actually named them at some point –

Lauren: I don’t know either.

Matt: – or if the world just kind of started referring to them as Swifties and that – But, you know, we've heard other people talk about this. Like, don't just refer to your readers as my readers or my fans. Like, if you can give them a name, people like that. No matter what age they are. Little tiny sort of micro efforts like that, I think, draw people closer and closer together as a community, not just an audience or, you know, a customer base. The scale with which she's done some of these things as it pertains to building an audience is... is different.

Lauren: Well, and yes, and I agree with that –

Matt: She has three quarters of the world.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: We're lucky if we have three quarters of, you know, one tenth of the viewers on Instagram for just that hour.

Lauren: But I still think that you can do so many of these things as any size creator, large or small.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And I think that’s –

Matt: You just have to scale it.

Lauren: – the – you have to scale it. You have to understand –

Matt: Up or down.

Lauren: – what the takeaways are from it.

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: You know, no one's saying go and, and trademark the phrase Hot Girls Read. That, that's not – that's not the direction that we're going in here, at all. I'm not answering. Too long. That's a whole episode on its own.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: You can look that one up.

Matt: But I should go trademark the phrase Hot Boys Read?

Lauren: Absolutely you should.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: For sure.

[12:19] – Lesson 2

Lauren: The point of the letting the community grow and flourish, with or without your involvement in it, is feeding into the second lesson here, which is making your fans feel like insiders. And it's making them feel like they're participating in the experience. That is again, this is part of the community building. This is a part of that two way street thing. If you have... If your community had – like, starts its own inside joke. Whether you are the instigator for it or not, there becomes this running inside joke within your community that's informing you what your community is interested. You can learn from that. You can take that and say, okay, they love when I do x, y, z thing, they've turned this into – We see this all the time with creators that – like podcasts that that have merch, that are things that the podcast host say all the time. They're not the ones deciding what their repeat phrases are. The audience is.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: You know? They’re not – one of the other things that I thought was really cool from the Eras Tour – we could do a whole episode on just the marketing of the Eras Tour, not the extended Taylor Swift universe.

Matt: No, we can't.

Lauren: We're not going to. I know this is a, I know this is a one shot, it's fine. But one of the things that was really cool from the Eras Tour is that over the course of the tour, people became fans not just of Taylor Swift, but of the other people on stage with her. Including her dancers, her backup singers, and her stage band. And she leaned into that. And this became an audience participation and an audience insider thing. One of her dancers was this guy Kam, and she would give him the opportunity to adlib in one of the songs every night. And the audience got really into that. And it turned into this thing where he would say something different every night, and everyone would be like, what's he going to say? What's he going to say? Including her. She participated in that, and it made it feel like we're all here sharing this moment together of what's Kam going to say tonight? Like what, what is he going to insert in this moment here? We're all experiencing this together. And that is something that like, she didn't orchestrate that moment on her own. She noticed her audience and her community and her fans being interested in this moment, and then allowed it to happen and then gave it more weight and more opportunity for it to happen.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And I think that's really interesting for a creator to understand. If you are not sure what to do next, if you're not sure what's resonating with your audience, your fans, how to deliver more of what they like... This is how you find out. By letting them feel like they're participating in this community as a part of this.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And I think that extends beyond community. And we'll talk about that a little bit more in some of the other lessons on here, too.

Matt: Great.

Lauren: Anything to add?

Matt: I've been scanning this room for a fire alarm I can pull, and it’s dawned on me that we don't have one in here. And I'm wondering if that's just, you know, against code, building code, or if I'm just wishful thinking here.

Lauren: I don't think there needs to be one in every room.

Matt: Bummer.

Lauren: Sorry. Sorry about it. It’s okay.

Matt: Maybe that should be less than three.

[15:42] – Lesson 3

Lauren: Well, lesson three is reward your biggest supporters. So.

Matt: Yeah. We like that one.

Lauren: Your reward here would be getting to leave when this episode is over, but.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: I think that that's actually something that, again, I think creators, smaller creators than Taylor Swift have more of an opportunity to do this –

Matt: So let's be clear –

Lauren: – than she does.

Matt: – when you say smaller creators than Taylor Swift –

Lauren: I mean everybody in the world.

Matt: – you mean the rest of the world.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: 99.9% of the world.

Matt: Oh my goodness.

Lauren: It's fine. But you know, this episode. Actually the, the impetus for this entire episode was that Matt and I were looking at some ideas for a Disney themed episode. Which we will still be doing. So if you hate this one –

Matt: We’ll see –

Lauren: – you’re gonna hate that one even more.

Matt: It'll be based on the outcome of this one. But yeah. Go ahead.

Lauren: That’s okay. But you know, one of the one of the recurring themes when we were looking at different potential ideas for that episode was what is it that makes Disney Adult repeat visitors? Like, what is it that that makes people go back over and over and over again? And I think the same thing is true with Swifties. Because again, with the haters out there saying why? Like all her music sounds the same – which, fight me, it absolutely does not – but all her music sounds the same. All the albums sound the same. If, if it cost $1,200 to go to the Eras Tour, why are there possibly people that are trying to go to more than one night? Isn't it the same thing? Why are you rewatching the movie over and over again? And the answer is the same as with the Disney thing, is that it is a continued delivery of the expectations that were promised.

Matt: Oh, I thought you're going to say cult mentality, but.

Lauren: Well that too.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: I just, I just get myself into bigger and bigger cults. This is...

Matt: I don't know that there is a bigger one. Yes. So delivering on what was promised.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Extremely important, I agree. Going above and beyond that I think is all that that you just went through is, is to say deliver above and beyond what was promised or expected. And again, I think tactic-wise, some of the things that she does, or that I've heard that she does, or that I've read that she does, that's where I think the sweet spot is. So.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: You know, delivering a good performance at every show... I mean, that's her job. So that can't be part of it. But above and beyond, you know, in terms of rewarding her fans for this cult-like behavior, doing extra things, secret listening parties and stuff like that, that's the value add. So for everybody that's not Taylor Swift, what can you do? What can you deliver above and beyond what's expected of you as an author or creator? If you're, you know, a creator in the travel space, it's expected that you're creating content that's relevant to, I don't know, Thailand or wherever it is you're talking about. But can you go above and beyond and reward one of your followers with a... I don't know, a free travel voucher to Thailand? Or can you show up somewhere at a travel conference, you know, and track down somebody and give them – you know what I mean? Like, you got to seek out these opportunities. For authors, you know, it's the same thing. What are, what are some of those things you can do to reward your fans, your diehards? Right?

Lauren: It’s actually –

Matt: By the way, the answer’s not oh, I'll do my next book with, you know, a foil cover or sprayed edges. Who cares? Like, we're talking about real, you know, impact. Like what can you do above and beyond to deliver crazy value? So that somebody’s like, I'm absolutely, forever, always going to buy every book that Lauren writes?

Lauren: Yeah. Yes.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: Yes. That is the point. And that is, I think, where like I said, indie artists, authors, creators have more opportunities to do this than Taylor Swift does. And I know that opportunity, that might sound crazy. Because you're like, you know, Taylor Swift is a billionaire.

Matt: A billionaire who can't actually show up in public to meet with her fans.

Lauren: Right? She can't. She used to – she used to do –

Matt: The number one thing that you can do –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – as a non-Taylor Swift human being is you can go show up and just pop in to a local book club that might happen to be reading your book or whatever.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Like, you can do really cool Will Ferrell-style, like, I'm just gonna show up –

Lauren: Oh you did see that?

Matt: – dressed as one of my characters –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – and just have fun. Or I'm going to go to an L.A. Kings game dressed as Elf. Or, like... You know, she can't do those things.

Lauren: Right. There are things that you can do as creators that she will never have the ability to do, because she can't get that granular with her things. So there are some really great opportunities there.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: I think. Alright. Audience building. Obviously there's so much more that can go on in that. We've done several episodes on audience building, on true fans, on using your readers as a, a support system for selling your books for you, and stuff like that. I will link those in the show notes. So we'll dive deeper into some of these things in those episodes.

[21:04] – Lesson 4

Lauren: Next was pre-launch marketing. And this and the product marketing are two things that she gets a lot of negative attention for. But it works. And, and I think this is something that's really easy to translate for authors as well. So lesson four: create anticipation before the launch. Surprise drops? Sure. And has she done a surprise drop before? Yes. Has she built surprise drops into announced and anticipated drops? Also yes. But for the most part she's very heavy on the pre-launch marketing. And she does a lot of different versions of it that I think can be really interesting. Her, her pre-launch marketing style has evolved over time. Like for example, a lot of singers, a lot of musicians, part of their, their default pre-launch marketing is that they, they release a lead single, right?

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: She doesn't do that anymore.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: Which I think is very smart, because she's very bad at choosing lead singles. And I think that's why she stopped doing it. Because she was getting a lot of backlash for not being selective with her, her singles choices. So if you're somebody who is saying, okay, I want to do pre-launch marketing for my book, but I don't want to release any of the book content ahead of time, I don't want to release the first chapter or preview or something like that, or give people early access to the book. You don't have to. There are plenty of ways to find success without doing that. Taylor has repeatedly used the idea of countdowns for things. It works. And I do think absolutely that you can do that yourself as a creator. I've seen, recently, an author... oh my God, I totally just blanked on her name, I'm so sorry. But she was announcing a new book, and she was announcing it... She was an indie published author that had signed a contract with Avon. And she did a five day social media countdown. She posted a post every day that was a little bit of a tease, that was teasing out more information, and it was very reminiscent of a Taylor Swift launch. Where it was –

Matt: I’ve seen cover reveals that way.

Lauren: Absolutely, cover – yeah.

Matt: Where they physically cover most –

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: – of the cover with a, like, a black box. And then each day less and less –

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: – or more and more of the cover is revealed.

Lauren: Remove a little square from it. That’s kind of cool, yeah. You're announcing a new product line and you're gonna slowly tease out the content over time. Your new branding? If you're rebranding something, or you're leaning into a new aesthetic for a new initiative that you have going. There are all different ways that you can tease this out and create buzz in a countdown format, even if it's not literally a countdown. And I think there are a lot of great examples of that out there. And she absolutely uses that. So. I’m just saying. You don't have to have a billboard in Times Square with the TS Toy Story logo that's also Taylor Swift... Insane. Insane branding and marketing, that all you have to do is put out a billboard that says TS on it with some, some blue and some clouds. And between Toy Story and Taylor Swift, everyone's like, I know exactly what this is. I’m just saying, they know what they're doing.

Matt: Certainly seems that way. Somebody does.

Lauren: Somebody does. Not me though.

[24:40] – Lessons 5 and 6

Lauren: So number five, we already talked about a little bit. And that is turning customers into participants. But specifically when it comes to not just in, like, terms of community building, but also in terms of pre-launch marketing, specifically. Make your pre-launch marketing interactive. This is something that Taylor has done on and off, is she will create games for announcing the, the tracklist or whatever. When she was doing the Taylor's Versions, she would release – which, this is a whole thing. This is part of the next lesson. So the Taylor's Version albums were the rerecordings of her existing albums. But as part of her efforts to make them worthwhile for her audience, she would include tracks that were ‘From the Vault’ on there, that were –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – previously unheard, songs that got cut from the original –

Matt: It’s bonus tracks. Yeah.

Lauren: Yes. And she would tease what those were by doing different interactive games online. So like a word scramble or a word hunt or something like that. And yeah, okay, most indie authors don't have the ability to partner with Google to build in like, a massive, like, in the Google search bar international scavenger hunt, obviously. But there are still ways that you can, you can tease out new content, new products, new brand, book, whatever by creating something interactive. Instead of just posting a static announcement post and then moving on to the next thing.

Matt: Yeah, I mean.

Lauren: So. And it's fun.

Matt: It does sound fun.

Lauren: And it's – you're killing two birds with one stone. Because you're getting those engagement metrics on your, if you're getting people to leave comments guessing – I think, I want to say Lauren Asher. And I will double check on that, but I want to say that's the name of the, the author that I was just thinking of that announced her book in like, several days. And part of that announcement was not just the countdown of revealing things one by one, but she was also actively asking her followers to like, leave a comment with your guess of what's happening here. So it becomes interactive. You're getting engagement on your posts, which means it's getting boosted to those people's audiences, because they’re –

Matt: Depending on the channel.

Lauren: – interacting with it. Yes. This was on Instagram.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So for the pre-launch marketing efforts, you're going to make that pre-launch, but also then the actual launch itself, feel like an event. People should be excited that your book is coming out. People should be excited, not just...

Matt: More people –

Lauren: ...you.

Matt: – than just your parents and your friends?

Lauren: Yes, yes. And how can you, how can you generate excitement about it? By making it an event. You know? Midnight release parties, whether they're virtual or in person. Emily Henry has done this recently – a very prolific author, romance author – the last few books that she's released, bookstores have done midnight release pajama parties for her book launches. That's doable. Maybe not nationally. Maybe you can't have a whole chain of Barnes & Nobles doing this for you, but maybe your local indie bookstore will do a fun release party the night before, the day after, whatever. Maybe you can do something online where you're doing a... we're, we're kicking off a readathon at midnight. We're all going to read the first chapter together, or whatever. Like, there's something that you can do to create an event, to make it feel like something that we're all participating in together.

Matt: Yeah. An actual event tied –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – to the launch. Yeah.

Lauren: Yes. There is absolutely... You know, not for nothing, I stay up till midnight – I mean, I stay up till midnight most nights anyway.

Matt: Yeah you, you can't use yourself –

Lauren: But –

Matt: – as the benchmark here.

Lauren: Fine. It's, it's fine. I know who I am. It’s okay.

[28:32] – Lesson 7

Lauren: Alright. This section’s gonna go even faster.

Matt: I, I –

Lauren: Product marketing.

Matt: – understand now why you drink so much Monster though.

Lauren: I need it.

Matt: I mean, I-I-I – 10:00, I'm ready to just pass out. I'm certainly not staying until midnight for, for anybody.

Lauren: There's just so much to do. It's okay. One of the things that you can do is market some new products for yourself. So this is something that, like I said with the, the pre-launch marketing, Taylor gets a lot of hate for. So take these lessons with a grain of salt. But I will defend most of them.

Matt: I actually like this one.

Lauren: I, I do too. So lesson number seven: create the illusion of scarcity. And we've seen authors do this too, this is not exclusively a Taylor Swift thing. But you go out there and you say, a limited number of these were printed. There was – who was – Lenny Rachitsky? Is that...? What is it, a thousand of these? And once they’re sold out, that's it?

Matt: No, when he did his book, he said 4,000.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: And then that was it, he wasn’t going to do anymore. And I mean, he actually – Yeah, he did have, I think like 4,005 he shut it off.

Lauren: There you go.

Matt: So. Yeah I mean. So, anybody who got that first volume of Lenny's newsletters, you were one of 4,005. But, you know again, somebody with a massive follower base. If you didn't get one of those 4,000, it's highly possible you were pretty bummed.

Lauren: This is the multi-step part of this illusion of scarcity. One limit the number that were printed or, or advertise that there were a limited number of them printed.

Matt: Or do variations, so you don't – I mean, it's so antithetical to, to actually wanting to sell more books, is this idea that you only sell a certain number. But I think what you're really alluding to here is you can do things because it's print-on-demand. Most of the time that we're talking about. You could create six different versions of the cover –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – or whatever that might be. And, you know, once a week you release a new version of the cover. So it's a new, you know, copy of the same book. It just has a different cover. Like there are people that would absolutely collect even the most minor of variations there. So I think scarcity is sliced a few different ways. When you're an indie creator you don't... you don't really have the luxury, most times, of, of not, you know, producing that content anymore after a certain number. I mean, it's put your whole goal is as a creators to make money from your content. You're not Taylor Swift, you can't just say, well, 5000 copies and that's it. But what you can do is limit the number of units per variation.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Which is also what she does, and which is also what a ton of creators do. Musicians, you know, authors, artists, whatever. And that's what makes, you know, the thing so great. Like there are artists right now, you know, contemporary artists that will create... you know, whatever their medium of choice is. Let's say it's pen and ink. And they do a really cool print that they're going to do. But they'll do it, you know, 500 of this version, strictly black and white. Then they'll add color to it, you know, and then they'll do 500 of that version. It's the same thing. It just had color added to it. So yeah, you can create scarcity, but you don't have to limit your income.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: You create scarcity within variations of the same product.

Lauren: Absolutely scarcity in quantity, but also scarcity in availability. And this is something that Taylor Swift does that some people hate, some people don't. My argument is always gonna be: no one's forcing you to buy anything. No one is forcing you to spend your money on this. So if you don't like it, don't buy it. Whatever. It's not a big deal.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But she will release variants of albums, which is the next lesson we're going to talk about is variant formats. But she will release variants of albums and she will release them in windows of time. It's: you have 72 hours to buy this version of this vinyl, and then it's not going to be listed anymore. There's no quantity listed there. There's no like, there's only a thousand of these made. But you have 72 hours to buy this, and then we're removing it from the website. And so there's that, that level of scarcity where it's like, oh my God, if I don't get it now, I don't get it now, I'm not going to get it. But now, of course, what has to go hand in hand with that is that they come back out again later. There is a second chance to buy them. Because that's the follow up, and that's the important – I think that's the really important thing that people miss when it comes to scarcity, whether it's quantity scarcity or time sensitive scarcity. Is that you've created that feeling of like FOMO in people, or you've created that, that regret where they're like, oh my God, I didn't purchase the thing that I wanted to purchase. I hemmed and hawed over it too much, and I ran out of time, and I didn't get it. And so now, the second time that you give them a second chance to go for it, now they're, they're more likely to bite the bullet on it. Because they missed it the first time around, and they don't want to miss it again.

Matt: You have to be careful with that when you're not Taylor Swift.

Lauren: Yes, for sure.

Matt: Because that's most closely associated with all those ads you see on TV that will come on and it's like, hey, if you order now in the next ten minutes –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – you know, you'll get this, this, this, but only if you order now in the next ten minutes.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: But then two hours later you see that same commercial, so clearly it wasn't that ten minute window.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: There are types of tactics like this where it's, you’re time boxing something, but then you're going back and saying, well, no, actually here it is again. Like, you have to be careful with that. She can get away with that, certain entities and brands and people can get away with it. As an indie creator, I would be careful how often you, you do that. Especially if you're going to go back to the well and offer it again. Now, if you truly – it's easier, instead of time boxing something, to actually go quantity-based. Right? So again, do variations of covers, or even interior content. Like maybe, maybe you have a story where there's a couple of different alternate endings or – I would hate that, by the way. But you know, it, it could be anything. It doesn't have to be the cover, the cover’s the easiest thing though, but, you know. I would offer that maybe for 3,000 copies.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: And once those are gone, I'm switching it back over to the default cover, or there'll be a different cover, or... When, when you timebox something as an indie creator, that gets harder. And again, unless you're just gonna keep playing that shell game, you kind of have to stick to what you said you're gonna do, which does limit your, your ability to, to monetize that content in, in a way. So.

Lauren: It – it does –

Matt: You know, I'm not saying it's a bad tactic. It works good for her, people for scale. But if you're gonna time box it and say it's only available for 72 hours, but then a month later you're going to put it back out there. Like, that doesn't look so good for a smaller creator.

Lauren: I agree, it's something that you cannot overuse. You have to be delicate with how you use it.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But I think that that is something that people overlook when they try a scarcity tactic is that they don't, they don't follow up. Because even if the follow up is, I was not lying, that version is no longer available, but if you missed the opportunity to buy that version, here's this version instead.

Matt: Well that's different. That's what I just said.

Lauren: And that’s –

Matt: That's variations. Yeah.

[35:55] – Lesson 8

Lauren: And so this is now lesson eight: let your customers choose what they want, in terms of product format and product variants.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: So... this, this is my example of the album that I own the most copies of. The Tortured Poets Department.

Matt: And are those all the same album?

Lauren: They are. They are all the same album. And these four CDs are all, are also all The Tortured Poets Department.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: So this was the album, this was not the most recent one, the one before that. But this was the original. She announced four different variants of the original album. Each one of them had a different bonus track. So they're all the same, like the same base album, and each one, there were four different bonus tracks. I always default to whatever the, like, standard version of the album is. Which is not collector mentality, but that's just who I am as a person. So it's fine, whatever. This was the album that at 2:00 in the morning, she dropped a second half of the album. So this was this was an example of her doing an anticipated drop and then a surprise on top of it. So the second half of the album, it turns out that those four different bonus songs on the four different variants were all on that second half of the album. But while she released these vinyl variants before they were even available... This, which is the complete anthology that is both the first half and the second half of the album, she didn't release this vinyl until six months later. So of the four different vinyl variants that had the bonus songs on them, my favorite of the four was the one that's on this album. So when enough time passed that I was like, alright, she's not releasing the anthology... I have to at least buy the version of the vinyl that has The Black Dog on it. And then, of course, six months later she released the anthology. So I have that too.

Matt: I wish I would’ve thought to put a cyanide capsule under my tongue just in case I needed it today.

Lauren: I'm actually surprised you're still here. That was a very long winded way of pointing out multiple different ways that you can release both different variants –

Matt: Well that we agree on.

Lauren: – and different formats. Yes. Fine. Whatever. These four –

Matt: Which we've talked about this before, you know.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And I've even conceded, and with my book, I ended up offering it in ebook. But it's important, yes, to offer as many format variants and potentially product variants that you can.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: To meet your readers, customers, fans, whatever you want to refer to the as, where they are, where they want to be, how they want to consume, you know? And if you're lucky, you'll get some rabid cult-like collectors like Lauren –

Lauren: And you.

Matt: Who’re just, they're gonna buy all of them. There's a few that – yeah. So but, you know, making sure that you have whatever it is that they need in terms of format and product. 100%.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Which it sounds simple enough, but quite frankly, most people get that wrong.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So format variants, we've talked about this plenty, ebook, audiobook, print. But also within that, hardcover, paperback, different sizes, large print editions, mass market, whatever you want to do there. There are different formats that you can make available to people.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And different product variants that you can make available to people. You can absolutely – Why not do the same book with three different covers and let your customers choose which one they want? And this is the – this is where I, I get snappy with people when they're like, oh my god she releases so many different variants. Like, she's just begging her fans for money. No one is making your fans buy every single variant. If you put out three versions of the same book, three of the exact same book but three different covers. Your average fan is going to buy one of the three of them. And maybe they'll buy the one they like the best. And that can also be something that's informing you for future choices. If –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – a bunch of people, if one copy way outsold the other ones, you should do more covers like that one, or whatever made that one different. Whatever made that one special. But if you get even 10% of your readers to buy more than one copy of the same book because you offered them a variety of options, how is that a bad thing for you?

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And it's the choice they're making to do that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So why not?

[40:53] – Lesson 9

Lauren: Alright. Lesson nine. With those products, whether it's variants, different formats, different versions over time... your products are a part of your story. And that is both a part of your story building and a part of building your brand and telling your brand story. So, you know, Matt just picked up these two – if you're not watching, Matt just picked up, I have two different copies of the Lover album here. Which are the deluxe version of the album that had four different variants that included journal pages in the beginning, in the beginning of the book. That have an inside look into some of her songwriting process. That she pulled snippets from journal entries throughout her career that she included. And there's four different versions, so there's four different journal entries. Like four different –

Matt: She has terrible handwriting, by the way.

Lauren: She does have terrible handwriting. She also, don't ever look up the way that she holds a pen. It’s deeply upsetting, but. Obviously we got to collect ‘em. Like, that's – you know, you gotta collect them. I want the –

Matt: Obviously.

Lauren: Obviously. But also within that was an opportunity for her to give some insider look into – And obviously she very, very carefully selected what was, what journal entries were being included in there. And that's part of the brand building. It's not just creating different variants and different products and giving your customers a reason to buy multiple versions of the same thing, but it's also giving you an opportunity to control your narrative and to tell a story and to tell a different part of the experience and build a part of like, the overarching brand. There's this author that I see on TikTok a lot. I get, I get her content showing up on TikTok a lot. She's an indie author. And I'm sorry, because I have no idea what her name is. But I have screenshotted and saved a couple of her videos, because she releases alternate versions of her books. She has – she's romance author. She releases just like, the regular standard version, and then she releases annotated versions. Where she – it's the exact same book, but she'll create a copy where she has author's notes in the margins. And she'll include character playlists and like, a little bit of insight into some of the, like, behind the scenes of how she went about writing stuff like that. It's like DVD commentary, back in the day when movies would have the –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – like, director commentary or the actor commentary. Why not.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: New product, new way to to remarket to your fans, and a way to continue to build your narrative.

Matt: Yeah.

[43:44] – Lessons 10 and 11

Lauren: Which brings us to the last part of this, which is how to repeat this. How to keep doing this. It's kind of a catch all for these last few lessons. Lesson ten we've talked about plenty of times before. I'm not going to get too much into it today. Repurpose your existing content.

Matt: Clearly, she's –

Lauren: Obviously.

Matt: – mastered that.

Lauren: Obviously with the variants, you can do that. But also deluxe versions. The, like we just said, annotated version versus just the standard version.

Matt: Well that's when you can come to market with your sprayed edges or your foil covers or some of that other stuff too. Bookmarks and, you know, some of the special things you can do to your covers.

Lauren: Yes. Yes. This is the thing that she is probably best known for in the industry right now. You can do that too as an author. You absolutely can. There are really great, fun, creative ways to do that. So do it. Lesson 11, also part and parcel for that same narrative, is own your own narrative. And that is so important. We've talked about it so many times. So again, we don't have to get too far into it. But own your – own your narrative as in own your content, own your creative work, own your audience, own your branding. Which, reminder, we did do an episode on the, the book that she put out – that was admittedly mediocre – but it was self-published Just saying.

Matt: Did – Did you just say it was mediocre?

Lauren: Yeah, we did a whole episode on it.

Matt: We did?

Lauren: Yeah. I'll link it in the show notes for everyone, including Matt, to refresh their memory on.

Matt: Yeah, cause had I remembered that we already – that I already gave you a hall pass on a Taylor Swift episode, we wouldn't be having this one.

Lauren: I'm not pushing my luck anytime soon.

Matt: I’m getting soft in my old age.

Lauren: It’s fine. This is a birthday present. This episode comes out two days before my birthday.

Matt: There you go.

Lauren: Thanks. In advance.

Matt: Happy birthday Lauren.

Lauren: I'll be at Disney. My other favorite.

Matt: It's best if you're very far away from me –

Lauren: I know.

Matt: – when this episode comes out.

Lauren: I know, I’m aware.

Matt: So that's probably the best place to be.

Lauren: That's okay.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But I also think that – and, and this is kind of two different lessons in the same thing. I think that something that, that Taylor Swift has really exemplified over the last few years, that I think a lot of indie authors and creators do really well and can continue to do really well, is owning your narrative in the figurative sense, not just the literal sense. And that is understanding, like, you are the expert of your own niche, this is your lane – I'm not saying stay in your lane. I'm not saying like don't – like you're never allowed to experiment, but like... Know who you are. Know what you do really well. Know what it is that you can deliver to your audience. The reason that your audience is your audience in the first place. And, and double down on it. Don't worry about chasing trends. Don't worry about like, forcing yourself to do what's popular right now if it's something that's outside of your wheelhouse. Because the inauthenticity of something like that, is going to hurt your brand more than it is help it.

Matt: Disingenuous, yeah.

Lauren: Yes. Exactly. Tell your story and stick to it. We talk about that with finding your niche, finding your tilt, finding your audience, whatever it is.

Matt: I've never found my niche, but I've found my niche before.

Lauren: I don’t like it. I don't like it. I bet Taylor Swift says niche.

Matt: I would expect she does, yeah.

[47:13] – Lessons 12 and 13

Lauren: Technically this is the second to last lesson, but this is the other one that I said at the beginning. I think the first and last are the, are the most important. And this is probably the one, the singular takeaway from this whole episode, and that is that it all it all boils down to lesson twelve: create a clearly identifiable brand story. Your brand should be... all of this. All of this all goes together. Whether it's your audience building efforts, your product, your pre-launch marketing, your continued repurposing efforts, whatever it is, it's all part of one overarching story. And that is your brand story. That is the story of you and everything that goes along with it, including your audience. And that's how you do the thing like getting your audience to feel like insiders, like they're included in this.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: This is the story of all of you. You're, you know, you're the captain of this ship. You are the lead singer on stage right now. But the overarching narrative that you're selling includes everybody in the stadium with you. Not just you. And I think that that's really what it all boils down to with her success and where she continues to dominate the market in every way. This is something that is not just her story anymore. I mean I've been listening to Taylor Swift since I was 17. This is, like. It's, it’s as much –

Matt: I'm not sure what that statement is supposed to, to convey.

Lauren: It's gonna be 20 years. I'm going to be 37 when this episode comes out. Like, this is my 37th birthday coming up.

Matt: There you go. There's the qualification.

Lauren: I have been listening to Taylor Swift for 20 years. This is as much a part of my story as it is a part of hers. And the same can be said for so many, there are so many authors that I've been reading for years. There are movies that I've grown up with and they're still coming out today. Which, you know, pros and cons there. But this is where your, your brand has longevity. We're telling a story together, you and your audience and your followers and your customers and your fans. You're creating a story, and that's where it all comes together. And that's what I think she excels at more than anything else.

Matt: Can't argue with that.

Lauren: And hey, you're all creators, so you should be good at storytelling. The very last one, cause I gotta end it on thirteen. Congrats, you made it. And that is lesson number thirteen: Always leave them wanting more.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: That's it. It’s all I got.

[50:04] – Matt’s Takeaway

Matt: Yeah. What I will say for everybody that actually made it as far as I did – because you had a choice, so I'm not sure what's wrong with you. Aside from all those lessons that we could learn from Taylor Swift. The thing I do respect about her particularly, and how she approaches her content and what her go to market strategy is for each of her products, is that she has embraced this idea that flexibility is important to her, and creative control is important to her, and it should be important to everybody. And in and figuring that out, and in realizing that in her early years she was probably contractually bound to some things that weren't the best for her brand. They weren't very flexible. And so the moment she was able to, she took control of those things, and she started doing a lot of stuff that would be most closely aligned with what we call indie publishing and selling direct. And all of these things that, you know, creators have at their disposal these days to really allow them that flexibility to build a brand so quickly. You know, there are people – authors specifically, and creators in general – who are building brands, building themselves at record-breaking paces. Compared to, you know, if you were an author that started writing ten, fifteen, twenty years ago – or more, but even as as recent as ten years ago – it was so much harder to, to go out there and build an audience and build a fan base, and build essentially a business. You know, but now, the amount of tools we have at our disposal, the amount of things that we have that contribute to the ability to, to do this quickly and effectively, is unprecedented. And so when you have somebody at her scale – Because let's face it, most of the stuff that we just talked about or that you just talked about, the scale at which it was being done or the things that were being done were because she had such a scale. Right? Like her audience was of a certain size. And so to scale that down to where a lot of us or our listeners might be, sometimes it doesn't translate well. But at the end of the day, having that flexibility and freedom to do it your way, right? So that you can, you know, leave this, this lasting impression and continue to build that audience. Like, I think that's the key to what she's doing. Her tactics or team's tactics, their strategies, those are all, you know, fine and good. And I think in most cases they worked out great. Specific tactics... I think would be somewhat arguable. But at the end of the day, it's just the fact that she said I'm not going to do it the way everybody else is doing it in my industry. I'm going to go and do all this on my own, and I'm going to do it this way because it gives me the maximum amount of creative flexibility and control. So if I'm a creator and I'm trying to build an audience or build a business and not be strapped to a cubicle 9 to 5 to earn a dollar, that's what I'm doing. I want to build an audience as fast as possible. I want to deliver content to the expectations of that audience, and the expectations that I've promised. Right? I want to do it consistently. I want to give them all of the products and formats that they expect and deserve. Right? And I want to do that in a way that will allow for me maximum profitability, maximum creative flexibility.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: That's my takeaway here. The rest of this, I'm gonna probably go in the bathroom and throw up. But.

Lauren: That's fine.

[53:40] – Episode Recap and Wrap Up

Lauren: You want to, you want a quick one minute recap of the 13 lessons? In case you spaced out and blacked out for the last 55 minutes?

Matt: Why not?

Lauren: Alright.

Matt: Cause I'm sure I did at a few points

Lauren: Ready?

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: Okay. One, build a community, not an audience.

Matt: Okay. Agree.

Lauren: Two, make your fans feel like insiders.

Matt: Love that.

Lauren: Three, reward your biggest supporters. Four, create anticipation before the launch.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: Five, turn customers into participants. Six, make launches feel like events. Seven, create the illusion of scarcity. Eight, let your customers choose what they want. Nine, your products are a part of your story. Ten, repurpose your existing content. Eleven, own your own narrative. Twelve, create a clearly identifiable brand story. And thirteen, always leave them wanting more.

Matt: Okay, well, hopefully we've left our listeners wanting more.

Lauren: Well, hopefully we've left them saying I'm really looking forward to whatever next week's episode topic is, as long as it has nothing to do with Taylor Swift or Disney.

Matt: I assure you, it will have nothing to do with Taylor Swift.

Lauren: Or Disney.

Matt: I can't guarantee that Disney won't be mentioned, but –

Lauren: I can. Well, no, I can’t –

Matt: But I can assure you you will not have to listen to anything Taylor Swift-related for the rest of this year.

Lauren: I don't know if that's true –

Matt: Guarantee it’s true.

Lauren: But definitely, definitely for the rest of this month.

Matt: The rest of this year.

Lauren: Okay. Alright. Fine.

Matt: You got two this year.

Lauren: I – oh that's true.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: I got the fanfiction one. I got –

Matt: Yup. Yup.

Lauren: – fanfiction and Taylor Swift.

Matt: Yeah. You did.

Lauren: I'll take it.

Matt: You sure did.

Lauren: Alright. Well.

Matt: Thanks for joining us.

Lauren: Thanks for joining us. Thanks for... for surviving that one with us. I do promise that next week it's going to be something different. Don't you worry. We gotta have a fun one every now and then. But in the meantime you can –

Matt: Still waiting on that.

Lauren: Well. I'm open – I'm open to suggestions from you, whenever you're ready.

Matt: Okay. Fair enough.

Lauren: But in the meantime, you can always check out some of our other episodes. I will have them linked in the show notes. You can leave us comments and reviews on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube. You can find us on Lulu's social media channels, and you can email us at podcast@lulu.com. That’s all I got.

Matt: Alright. Later.

Lauren: See you in the next era.

Matt: Oh God.