[0:21] – Episode Topic Intro

Matt: Welcome back to Publish & Prosper. Today we're going to be talking about a number of things. We are going to revisit our 2026... non-projections.

Lauren: No, non-predictions.

Matt: Non predictions.

Lauren: That was the word –

Matt: They are –

Lauren: – I was not allowed to use.

Matt: Oh yeah, we weren't using the word prediction.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: We were projecting. Manifesting, if you were.

Lauren: Speculating, maybe?

Matt: Speculating.

Lauren: But manifesting is a little more proactive, so I like that.

Matt: Yeah because we wanted all these things to happen.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: So in a way it was manifesting.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: We just weren't predicting.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Cause... Yeah. We don't have a crystal ball.

Lauren: Unfortunately not yet.

Matt: What an opportunity, though, to have Madame Leota sitting here. We should have – We blew it. You blew it.

Lauren: You know, we made the same joke in the –

Matt: Oh, did we? See, there you go.

Lauren: We're on a roll.

Matt: Wow.

Lauren: Yeah. I –

Matt: Should we start over?

Lauren: No.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: I love it, actually. No I, I – do either one of us have? Other than the Funko –

Matt: I do.

Lauren: – Pop, the little Funko Pop –

Matt: No, no.

Lauren: – of Madame Leota. You have an actual...?

Matt: I have an actual, yeah.

Lauren: Oh that’s cool.

Matt: Yep. I could bring it in.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: For next time –

Lauren: Great.

Matt: – we do a projection.

Lauren: So, December of 2026?

Matt: There you go.

Lauren: Great. Looking forward to it.

Matt: We will have Madame Leota on the table with us.

Lauren: Perfect.

Matt: No more missed opportunities.

Lauren: Never. Never again. But no, this one is, as, as Matt was saying, in December of last year.

Matt: 2025

Lauren: The last episode of 2025, which was also episode number 100. You may remember the confetti.

Matt: Yeah. I finally got it. After 100 episodes.

Lauren: You finally got your confetti.

Matt: I mean, coulda done it at 50.

Lauren: We could have done it at 50. We could have done it –

Matt: Could’ve done it on the actual anniversary of the podcast.

Lauren: We could.

Matt: Coulda done it on my birthday.

Lauren: We did do it on your birthday.

Matt: Oh, you did?

Lauren: Yeah, because the day we filmed the confetti, the day we filmed episode number 100 with the confetti was your birthday.

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Lauren: So. You got a two for one with that confetti.

Matt: Good stuff.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: Yes. But once the confetti was over we sat down and talked through – each of us made three... educated guesses –

Matt: Statements.

Lauren: – statements, whatever you want to say, about things that we thought were going to be trending in the publishing industry in 2026.

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: So since this is more or less the halfway mark of the year, this episode comes out last week of June, we thought we would check in on those speculations, manifestations, and and see how they're coming, whether or not they are, and whether or not we want to make any... amendments to our –

Matt: I don’t think you can do that. I think that’s –

Lauren: No.

Matt: – not how this works.

Lauren: No, no, no. But, but I think that we can... I mean, there's at least one of mine that I'm flat out gonna say like I... I don't think I was right about this, but I'm gonna shift –

Matt: Only one?

Lauren: Well, we'll see.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: We'll see. We'll get there. But, but yeah, I think, I think it's important for us to be able to say I wasn't 100% right about this. And then pro-offer some alternatives instead.

Matt: Pro-offer?

Lauren: Ah, proffer... what’s, I don't know what word I was looking for.

Matt: Several of the significant industry events have already happened, where we've been able to, you know, get outside of our ecosystem per se. And see, you know, a lot of other publishers and publishing adjacent businesses and how they're doing. What things look like for them. So we're not just looking at daily ISBN reports and Publishers Weekly articles and... But, you know, London Book Fair’s happened already, a couple other things. Including the latest was US Book Show, just a couple of weeks ago. So we've definitely had, you know, a pretty solid six months worth of, of experience and data. And just, you know, being in the market and watching what's going on. really take a look at these and see and try to, you know, calculate were these correct, were we way off? Yeah. So that'll be fun.

Lauren: Yeah.

[4:30] – Publishers Will See POD As A Competitive Advantage

Matt: My first one was I said that I felt like publishers, especially the, the big five but even more so, you know, medium-sized publishing houses. that they would begin to really embrace POD as a competitive advantage, if they had not already been.

Lauren: You want to watch the clip?

Matt: If we have to. Yeah, let's watch it.

Lauren: Let's do it.

Matt: So my first one is that print-on-demand will switch from being a cost center into a competitive advantage for forward thinking publishers. And what I mean by that is yes, there are a lot of publishers that are using print-on-demand now as part of their supply chain, as part of their distribution chain, as a way to, to fulfill certain products or test certain things. And I think those are the ones that are going to continue leaning into print-on-demand into 2026. For a lot of reasons. And I think others who have been sitting back and kind of watching or, you know, have felt a little bit, you know, hesitant, will realize in 2026, especially by the middle of the year, that they, they really should. Print-on-demand models will become as important, I think, to the publishing supply chain as some of the other things that have surfaced over the years.

Lauren: Alright, so. Six months later, how do you feel?

Matt: I feel like for the most part, that's true. From what we've seen. For those of you that are actually, you know, pretty, pretty tightly integrated into the publishing industry, community. You saw that Lakeside – It's a massive printing organization. Mostly offset, some digital POD – not much, but mostly offset. They do a ton of printing, you know, for all the the traditional big five and lots of other, you know, publishers, academic, trade... Lakeside is probably – actually, I wouldn't say probably, they are the largest printing outfit in the United States and one of the biggest in the world. They print something like... gosh, I don’t want to get this wrong, but I wanna say 60 million books per year. I might be wrong on that. It might be more. For some reason, I have the number 400 million in my head. But they've printed at least 60 million books per year, if not more. They were the ones who acquired Baker & Taylor Publishing Services.

Lauren: Oh.

Matt: Which –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Which came with that whole print-on-demand facility that Baker & Taylor owned in Ohio. So, you know, when you're seeing acquisitions like this happen... Now, Lakeside’s not a publisher, although arguably they do have their own publishing imprint called Dover, and they do a bunch of publishing too, but. They are, again, one of the largest printers in the world. And all of the, the top five use them as well as a ton of small to medium sized publishing companies. So they are very central to the publishing industry, for print specifically. And for them to go and acquire somebody like Baker & Taylor Publishing Services that everybody knows are struggling... You know, specifically, they wanted that POD operation that Baker & Taylor had in Ohio. And we're seeing other things happen like that. Right? Other acquisitions are happening right now that involve print-on-demand technology or things. We have seen where, you know, some other publishers are instituting some direct sales activities that include, obviously, print-on-demand associated with them. So I think that one is correct. I think it's, you know, definitely accelerating.

Lauren: I think that the... Lakeside acquisition especially is a really big indicator – Paul and I were just talking about this in the episode that we did a couple weeks ago. We were talking about how Amazon or Audible and Spotify are investing in solutions to be able to jump back and forth between print, ebook, and audiobooks seamlessly. They would not invest that kind of time and money into doing that if they didn't think there was value in it. And I think this is kind of that same thing, where Lakeside, who is absolutely already massive, would not be investing in a print-on-demand facility or solution or in any way like that if they didn't see a very good reason to do so.

Matt: Yeah. I don't really care about the other formats, but you're right.

Lauren: I know. That's why you didn't do that episode. It’s okay.

[9:23] – Authors Are Going to Invest in Hybrid Publishing Contracts

Matt: What was your first one?

Lauren: So my first one was that a lot more authors are going to be looking at hybrid solutions. Or just different ways that they can kind of blend both their existing traditional publishing contracts or plans or whatever, with direct sales and self-publishing solutions so that they can kind of reclaim ownership. Maybe we should just let me do it.

Matt: Yeah, let's hear what you say.

Lauren: Hit – Yeah.

Lauren: In 2026, authors are going to be investing more into building their own brands. Not just relying on traditional publishers or existing contracts or whatever it is, that authors are going to start approaching their, their author brand as a business. They're going to treat it as a business, and they are either going to be turning to print-on-demand, direct sales solutions, or they are going to be blending those into their existing traditional publishing contracts and practices.

Matt: Okay. What do you think?

Lauren: I don't think I'm wrong. I think that we are still seeing that. I think it's largely still anecdotal evidence. I don't have any like, direct data to, to prove that. But I do think that we are seeing more and more, both authors and publishers understanding the value of approaching their publishing plans as a hybrid solution. And we see that at these kind of conferences and events that we go to. So I know that at IBPA, the IBPA Publishing University event that they did about a month ago, they absolutely had sessions there that we're talking about how authors can, can retain control and ownership over their brand while still traditionally publishing.

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: And also at US Book Show that was a topic of conversation that people were talking about, how we're seeing more instances of kind of this blended approach.

Matt: Yeah –

Lauren: And I think – yeah.

Matt: There have been some other contracts announced over the last couple of months. I know there's been a few that I've seen in Publishers Weekly recently. So there are signals that this is still happening. And, and to a degree, you know, happening a little more than it was last year. So I agree, I think you're you're on track with this one. And again, anecdotally, we are hearing a lot of this as well. So, I think part of it too is that we often don't get any real concrete evidence of these things until they're, they're well underway and contracts have been signed and everybody's ready to put out the press release and all the marketing behind it and... So, you know, we sometimes lag behind the actual activity itself. Which is why the anecdotal sometimes comes into play –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – because we'll be at an event and you'll hear the talk faster than you'll actually see the public sort of display of what happened. So yeah, I think you're right.

Lauren: Yeah. I think there are a lot of instances where this stuff is kind of under the radar. You wouldn't really know...

Matt: For good reason initially.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yes. Yeah. You know, they're not all going to be like Daggermouth, where it's like a massive blow up, two weeks after the book is published the –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – publishers have picked it up for a traditional publishing contract.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: There are oftentimes some of these sleeper things. Like Dungeon Crawler Carl, who I – I don't actually know who the original publisher of that was.

Matt: I'm reading the first one –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – finally, but I don't remember who the publisher is.

Lauren: Right. But those have been out for a while.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: And they've only just recently had this kind of, like, massive blow up.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And so, I think we're still very much on track for that one.

[13:23] – AI Will Be Integrated Into Most Publishing Chains

Matt: Alright. The second of my three was, I said that I feel like AI will be, you know, by the end of the year, integrated into most publishing chains. Like a very large portion of it. And I think, specifically, I said maybe 80% of the books that will be touching...

Lauren: Yeah, do you want to see specifically what you said?

Matt: I don't know if I want to watch myself saying this one or not. Cause I don't know if I'm ready to... Alright, yeah. Let's just go ahead.

Lauren: Do it.

Matt: I think AI will be integrated into most publishing chains by the middle of 2026. I don't care if it's traditional publishing, self-publishing, hybrid publishing. I feel like by the end of, of next year – or even the middle of next year, really. Based on the progress of tools that are coming out the, the adoption rate of the publishing industry as a whole, the adoption rate of AI tools for productivity, for things like, you know, automated workflows, personalized reader experiences, editing, grammar, the metadata optimization, like, that stuff is really important for discoverability. I think by the, the middle of 2026, there won't be a title released – you know, maybe fifteen to twenty percent of them – but I think most of them, if not all of them, will have been touched by AI one way or another. And I think a lot of people are going to hate that statement. But understand what I say when I say touched by AI, more from a productivity and automated workflow standpoint, not from a creative standpoint.

Matt: I think people are still gonna hate that.

Lauren: I, I mean...

Matt: But.

Lauren: Yes, but.

Matt: But I will say, I do think on track for that one too. Because again, every show we've been to this year so far. At least 75% of the articles that have been published, whether in Publishers Weekly or any of these other industry, you know, outlets. You know, every podcast it seems – like, everything is so AI-oriented. Now of that a good percentage of it is still on this idea of like, oh God, don't let it, don't let it write your book or don't let – like, yeah okay, we get it. But the rest of it is very productive conversation around using AI for workflow. And in fact, again, the last show we were at was US Book Show.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: And some of their main panels and discussions were on AI. And you had a panel where you had, you know, top executives from Sourcebooks, from Hachette, from Authors Equity. Right? Three different areas of publishing in terms of size and scope of what these publishers do. And all of them talked about how they're, you know, ethically and, and, and I think responsibly incorporating AI into how their companies, you know, work. How they become more efficient and productive. Again, from a back office operations standpoint, none of them are letting AI anywhere near the creative side of, of what's going on. And so... Yeah, I mean, again. Three of the biggest entities right now in publishing representing, you know, a wide scope. Authors Equity is a little more like that hybrid approach. Hachette is a Hachette, you know, and Sourcebooks is teetering on – I wouldn't actually call them a medium-size publisher anymore. I think they're large.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: You know?

Lauren: Which has also been a really interesting thing to see this year.

Matt: Sure, yeah.

Lauren: Or the last few years.

Matt: So... yeah, I think I'm on track with that one.

Lauren: I, I actually –

Matt: I don't think people are going to like that. But you know, again. Remember we're not talking about using AI to write the book. Even do any heavy editing or any cover design or any of that stuff. We're strictly talking about, you know, all that other stuff. That A. most people don't want to do anyways. And B., quite frankly, having, you know, another process in place, another step, another QA or quality control check point, I think is a really good thing. So... yeah.

Lauren: I think that, spoiler alert, I think that's probably the most accurate of all, of the, projections that are included in this, or in that original episode. I think that's probably the one that you, that either one of us was the most on the money with. Maybe excluding the number, the percentage that you gave of 80%.

Matt: Well, there's no way to truly –

Lauren: Because there’s no way for us to know that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Right?

Matt: I mean, yeah.

Lauren: But I do think that yes, absolutely. Especially after listening to these sessions at US Book Show and understanding – because you also did in the, in the full episode, not just that little clip that we just watched – you did go on to say that you think there will be pushback from the general public about using AI creatively to write and do cover design. And, and rightly so. And you were also correct about that. We have seen some pretty big instances and examples in the last six months of books getting terrible press or outright canceled because it came out that the authors used AI in the production of it.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But that aside, the publishing industry is absolutely for sure using AI in their production workflow. Just not the production that is writing and creating cover design and doing that kind of creative human work.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But 100%, yes, the publishing industry is using AI.

Matt: Well, all the smart ones are.

Lauren: Yes. And I think that based on the conversations that we were hearing at US Book Show, more and more people are going to be adopting that if they're not already.

Matt: Yeah, and I shouldn't even say the smart ones are. I mean, I think – because I've even talked to a handful, you know, in a way where, you know, I'm having a conversation with a small to medium sized publisher about, you know, using us for print-on-demand fulfillment, things like that. But also having conversations around AI and what they're doing with it. And, you know, a lot of them still aren't actually using it or using it very, very much because they're still in that exploratory stage. Which is totally understandable. I think what's important is the, the openness and willingness to try it and see, you know, just how much free time can you create for your team to be working on more meaningful things, more creative projects and spending more time with your authors or finding new authors. I think that's where humans are needed the most in the publishing process.

Lauren: Absolutely.

Matt: Yeah. Okay.

Lauren: One of the things – I'm gonna, I'm gonna deviate a little bit here. One of the things that I thought was particularly interesting that was a topic as part of this AI discussion at US Book Show, was talking about how AI and the discoverability that AI gives some books is really kind of shedding new light on backlist titles for a lot of publishers. And we're seeing a lot more backlist titles that maybe under-performed originally are finding their audience now.

Matt: Yeah –

Lauren: Because of the increased discoverability and the more accurate discoverability that goes along with it.

Matt: It is a deviation.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: That has nothing to do with publishers using AI smartly, necessarily. It just has to do with the, the general sort of–

Lauren: Well –

Matt: – nature of discoverability.

Lauren: I mean, it does if they're updating the metadata for their old titles.

Matt: But that’s – yeah.

Lauren: But. But I think that because of that, I think that as a, as a side effect of that, if they start to see these changes where backlist becomes more popular, we're going to have to go back to that first prediction that you made. Where publishers are going to have to look for print-on-demand solutions that are going to make their backlist titles available. Because you can never predict what backlist title is going to suddenly go off.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And have a viral moment on TikTok and now it's like highly in demand for a book that was out of print six years ago because it undersold ten years ago.

Matt: The possibility of it now –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – is much more...

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Is greatly increased beyond what it was –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – a year ago. Two years ago. Three years ago. Yeah.

Lauren: Exactly.

Matt: Yep.

[21:36] – More Creators Will Focus on Building Community

Lauren: My number two was on community and community building. And this is the one that I'm going to say outright I am going to amend. Because I think I was a little wrong about it. Or not wrong, but.

Matt: I... I –

Lauren: Let's –

Matt: I'm with you.

Lauren: Let's, let's roll the tape and then I'll elaborate on how I'm wrong.

Lauren: I've been near a lot of conversation this year about community building, and about the importance of proving authentic human connection –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – and human relationships. And making sure that you have, like, genuine and authentic relationships with your audience, your fans, your readers, your buyers, whatever content it is that you're putting out there. But I've also been a part of a lot of conversations where people are talking about how that is getting harder and harder to do for various reasons. A lot of reasons like... No, no universally accepted solution has come out to replace Facebook groups.

Matt: I see, so you're talking about actual platform technology.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Is that what you're saying?

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: I do think that we are kind of reaching a breaking point with that where, where people are going to be putting more active effort into not just building community spaces –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – but also actually attempting to find a way to do that successfully.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Because I think that it is becoming more and more important.

Lauren: So the thing is...

Matt: The thing is. See, what had happened was.

Lauren: See what had happened was... We have not technologically found any kind of replacement or universally accepted solution – for a good community space. There has been no, no, no frontrunner has come out in the last six months –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – or even rumored to be coming, that is a good solution for platform-built community spaces. So I was wrong about that. But I was not wrong about the importance of community building.

Matt: Well, so – hold on, I'm gonna jump in.

Lauren: Go ahead.

Matt: I do think you were off regarding the technology itself.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: You know, or lack of platforms or emergence of, of another platform besides, you know, the one that Mark Zuckerberg owns. But there's a lot of definitions of community. So you were talking literally about, you know, physical digital spaces. You know, Discord, Facebook, these other places where – you know, Circle communities, all those things. But community itself and the other definition of it, you know, authors establishing communities around their work or things like that. I think we're still seeing evidence of that growing. And even more so in general, the community of writers and creators and authors, we are absolutely seeing evidence of that continuing to grow, and the need for it. Because of... how we see people interacting at these in-person events, more and more of in-person events are cropping up. We've seen events that were primarily virtual or digital now switching over to in-person. You know, that alone is a pretty good sign that people are wanting more opportunities for community. However you define that. But. So I think there was, you know, on the technology side of it, the platform side, yeah. And who knows if that'll be a priority for anybody going forward. But the other side of it, the other definition of community, the audience building portion and the audience interaction portion of that I think... I think you were right to say, like, this is going to get more and more important. And we're definitely seeing that.

Lauren: Yes. I absolutely still stand by that part. And I think I was absolutely on the money there with that. I do for sure think that we are continuing to see the importance of community building and the importance of kind of proving that – providing and proving that relationship between creator and consumer. For sure, a hundred percent. And I think that what we're actually seeing, or what I'm noticing, at least more and more of this year, is the way that people are doing that in ways that might not necessarily be considered community off the bat. I was watching a recording recently of a live podcast that's a, you know, like weekly recurring creator goes live on YouTube and, and does – and then posts an edited version of the live later. And they were talking about the idea of like, you know, when you start doing recurring, regularly scheduled lives, people come to them consistently and it's a part of their routine, and it starts to be the same people that are coming to them consistently. And it's, it starts to be a community of not just like these people that are fans of... Because podcasting is a kind of a one way medium.

Matt: Traditional, yeah.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But when you're doing it live and you've got the chat feature turned on and people are talking not just directly to the podcasters, but also to each other. And you start to recognize each other and you start to say, oh, this person is, is, you know, has never missed a Thursday evening live. They are always here. I know, I know who this person is just by their username and like, will engage with them in the comment section kind of thing. And that's community too. Maybe not in the same way that a Facebook page is.

Matt: Well no no, it absolutely is.

Lauren: But it is.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: For sure.

Matt: You don’t need to justify it or qualify it.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: It absolutely is. Again, in fact, if anything comes out of this discussion, I think the statement would be: the term community is the most widely used, comma, improperly used, comma, ambiguous, comma, yet universally embraced term right now.

Lauren: Period.

Matt: Yeah. Full stop. Because, you know, again, you started talking about community as more of like, we needed a better platform, you know, in terms of technology. Like actual physical or digital space to, you know. Like, Facebook group’s out, like, and have been forever. Discord is getting tired. Like, people are fleeing from Discord. Circle is great, to a degree. But again, there's a cost involved, there's a learning curve on how to set up a Circle community, blah blah, blah blah blah. Like –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: – there is no universal thing. Facebook groups became that by default, you know, back in the day, because it was kind of the only real thing that existed at scale. But I think inadvertently, the conversation really went beyond that. And definitely now. And so again, this concept, this, this term community, I think is... it's almost too hard to try and –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – define it in such a way where you can really pinpoint... I think community is all of those things.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah. And so whether it's, you know, commenting with people you've come to kind of, know through a weekly, you know, live podcast that you watch every week. Or it's going to an in-person event and doing a meet up with a bunch of, you know, people that you've met online who are also fans of your favorite author. Or, you know, it's a bunch of authors that meet up – like, community is all of these things. And I think it's too hard to make any predictions about community, really.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Other than it's just going to keep getting more and more important.

Lauren: Yes. Yes. Which we, we see and we continue to see. And I don't think that's gonna change anytime

Matt: Yeah. So anyways.

Lauren: Yeah, no. So I will... I'm not gonna say eat crow on that, because I didn't...

Matt: Well.

Lauren: I wasn't wrong for bad reasons. I just, I think maybe that the technology is becoming less important to people. People are instead just embracing – instead of us trying to find one universal new platform that we're all going to use for it, we're all just going to find our own ways that work for us as creators and our audience as consumers. And find ways to build community together, whatever that may be and however that may look for your particular brand or niche or whatever.

[29:59] – Increased Direct Sales Adoption From Authors and Publishers

Lauren: So you had one more. What is your third... speculation?

Matt: This one I think was a little more obvious. I don't know that I would call this a speculation or prediction or whatever that might be.

Lauren: Had to be said anyway.

Matt: But you know, once the, the, the motion was set, you know, I think it was only a matter of time before acceleration happened. And so my third one was that adoption from, from authors and publishers for direct sales channel activity would increase. Again, I think that was somewhat obvious if you're in the industry or, you know, watching what's going on. But, for others, not so obvious. And then it – the percentage or the degree, the speed at which the increase happened, I felt like would be quick. We have internal data to show us that, you know, direct sales options are growing faster than ever. Our sign ups, you know, for Lulu Direct and using our Shopify plugins or our API or – they continue to grow double digits month over month, year over year. Most of our highest producing revenue segments are all selling direct. I was pulling some, some data the other day for something else. And I was looking at creator data, and I pulled a... let me see if I can find it. I was, you know, looking at certain creators and, and their, their revenue and their data. And I think... so what is that, five of them right there? So I kind of went through and I pulled –

Lauren: Wow.

Matt: – what we would consider our top ten creators slash authors based on their audience size and their revenue generated through Lulu. You know, this isn't what they made, this is what they've paid Lulu for printing and fulfillment. But the, you know, five of the ten alone, in terms of revenue, their LTV to Lulu is $2.5 million. That's just five people, five creators slash authors. Now this is probably less important for a lot of people, but it gives you an idea of scale. And so – and ultimately gives you an idea of the importance of building an audience. So between those five creators, they have a total reach, currently, of almost thirty million followers across their social media channels and email lists and things.

Lauren: That's crazy.

Matt: So again, you know, when you look at the correlation... So almost thirty million in reach, and then in revenue to Lulu, about two and a half million. Lulu is probably about a fourth to a third of their cost. So, you know, their gross revenue is going to be somewhere three, four times that. And this is why we say, you know, building an audience is important. Being able to sell directly to your customer base and reap higher profit margins and then be able to remarket to them, it's invaluable, essentially. And so, again, this is five creators. We have... gosh, I don’t even remember how many active users on Lulu right now. I should, cause I'm the CMO, but. It's somewhere around one and a half million active users on Lulu right now. And that's a swath of five. Now, these five fit into, like, the top ten.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: You know? Of, of like creators in terms of reach and revenue. But there is a whole nother level just below them of a couple of hundred that, you know, they are pushing six figures. Right? And there's a whole nother level of a couple hundred to a thousand below them that are definitely doing tens of thousands of dollars per year. Pushing on that six figure, sort of, five and six figure window. So, you know. And it all comes down to audience building and, and you have to start somewhere. You know, people see numbers like these and they think, oh, you know, I'm never going to have an audience of that size. Or, you know, yeah of course they're making that kind of money when they, when they have an audience that big. But they didn't always have an audience that big, right?

Lauren: They had to build it. And the only way they're gonna build it is by being able to connect with them.

Matt: Yeah. Let's see what I actually said.

Lauren: Go ahead.

Matt: I'm scared.

Matt: I think direct sales will continue to grow in adoption amongst authors and publishers. Because the tools are going to get better. And retail platform sales are getting worse. We've heard a lot of feedback this year from publishers and publishing companies. Specifically that, you know, sales from Amazon have dropped. They've declined. Sales from some of the other retail platforms have declined. In most of the, the, the, the genres and areas that they sell books in. Obviously there's a few key genres and areas where sales are still holding pretty strong on, on several retailers and in several areas. But, you know, I think direct sales affords the opportunity to, to be able to do some of the things that you can't, you know?

Matt: Okay. It wasn’t that bad.

Lauren: So, we did also go on in that episode to talk about the, the ability to build your audience and to remarket to that audience for both authors and publishers. So absolutely, I think that was all kind of part and parcel for –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – that specific prediction. But I think it's really interesting, I didn't – I did not make this connection until we were just watching that clip now. We talked recently in an episode, I think it was in the one that we did on the Pew Research, and that article that was published, that we're seeing declining sales being reported from retailers. But not necessarily because people aren't buying print books anymore, but because book sales data does not include a lot of direct sales or –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – indie published –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – book sales. So as we're seeing an increase in these –

Matt: The data’s underreported.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: For sure.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So I think that is continued evidence that you are right about what you were saying, just now and also in that clip.

Matt: Well again, I think this one was, was a little more obvious.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: And probably, you know, an easy one for me to put in there. But I think the, the, the part that I really wanted to focus in on was publishers. More and more publishers –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – adopting direct sales too. And, you know, for those of you that don't generally buy your books directly from the publisher, most people don't right now. I challenge you next time you know you want to go buy a book, find out who the publisher is of that book, go to their website. I bet that more often than not, now, they have the ability to buy direct from their website. A lot of them started experimenting with direct sales with some of their backlist. And even some of their front list that was getting to the, to the end of its life cycle there, as front list. But yeah, I'm always surprised at how many – you know, if I go to a publisher's website and look, do they have a direct sales option? Now, you know, some of them have the appearance of direct sales, and then you, you click like, Buy the Book and it takes you to Amazon.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: Which also is like. mega stupid. Like –

Lauren: It makes me crazy.

Matt: – to get somebody to actually come to a publisher's website and want to buy the book, and then you send them away... Like, that is the dumbest of the dumb. Like, you know? So. Any individual creators and authors right now who still aren't, you know, really adept at selling direct or haven't really tried it yet, don't feel bad. There's a lot of publishers who actually are trying it, and they're still doing it the wrong way and really, you know, screwing up. But the important thing is, we say this all the time: just get started.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: Like, it doesn't matter if you have zero, you know, people on your email list right now because you don't have an email list. Or you've just started it and you've only got zero or five, you know, it doesn't matter. Like. You have to get started.

Lauren: Get started, and I think that – cause one of the other things that you said in there was about the, the technology. And how the technology is improving and will continue to improve, to be able to make direct sales more accessible to a lot of authors and publishers. And we have already seen that so far this year. We've done a couple episodes on choosing the, the best direct sales solution for you, whether that is something that is a fully customizable, very robust API solution, or some of these, like very basic, just really entry level building your own website solutions. Or even using some tools that will help you facilitate that for you.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And I think we're going to continue to see more improvements in that technology in the next six months. So I think it's going to be easier than ever for people, there's really going to be – as we have said many times, and we'll say again – you are running out of excuses if you are not already selling direct.

Matt: Oh yeah. Excuses are gone.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

[39:59] – More Creators Monetizing with POD Books

Matt: Which brings us to your number three.

Lauren: Which I – again cannot, can only anecdotally...

Matt: I forgot that, that that was there, and I was like I wonder if I can sidetrack her?

Lauren: I'm like a cat. My own cat doesn't give a – doesn't care at all about a laser pointer, but you literally just cut me off mid-sentence – now you know how to get me to stop talking.

Matt: Not for long, I'm sure.

Lauren: No. Definitely not. So my, my third and final prediction at the end of last year was that I think we are going to see an uptick in people that are using print-on-demand as a way to monetize their content. Some casual content creators that are really going to...

Matt: Well, books specifically.

Lauren: Become less – well, yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Let's just see exactly what I said.

Matt: That's probably a good idea.

Lauren: Yeah.

Lauren: I think that we are going to see an uptick in people that are using print-on-demand as a way to monetize their content next year. I think that there are going to be a variety of different motivating factors that are going to have casual creators, hobbyists, etc. start actually monetizing, creating some kind of small business, content entrepreneur business, brand, whatever. In general, but also specifically using books.

Matt: Uptick is probably an understatement.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. But I think you're right. I think, I think if we, we – let's say six months from now, we talk about the trend of POD for new users coming into the ecosystem... Yeah, I bet it's more than an uptick.

Lauren: Yeah.

Lauren: I stand by it. I do think that, that we are seeing absolutely, whether by demand or need or just interest, I think we're seeing more and more people kind of dipping into that space. And testing the waters and seeing A. can I actually make money off of this content that I've been creating, and B. can I do so using print-on-demand books?

Matt: Yeah. I mean, we can use our own data if we want.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: To kind of validate that statement. Our data, you know internally, this year alone, we've had a lot of creators come into our ecosystem who you wouldn't consider traditional authors. These are people who have built up, you know, a YouTube channel or a TikTok channel or... you know, one of the usual paths to market. And they're doing, you know, non-literary content. It's, it's, it's cooking and nutrition and wellness. It's travel. It's fashion and beauty and you know, all these other things that, you know, you don't always necessarily align with books, per se. But again, because of, you know, the, the acceleration of, of how well print-on-demand has been able to service, you know, these, these markets, these types of creators and what they're doing. And the tools that exist now to make it pretty easy to convert that content into book format... We internally have seen, you know – leading up to this year, of course, but even this year alone – a huge spike or surge in these types of creators. Specifically in the areas around food and nutrition. So a lot of cookbooks, wellness books, personalized, sort of, dietary planners and, and health journey workbooks and... you know, travel guides, and all of these things that... you know again, these are creators who, who are bringing this content over to Lulu as another form of monetization. So they're not relying solely on, you know, AdSense or kickbacks on YouTube or chasing brand sponsored deals or influencer deals or, you know. It's a pretty, pretty good source of passive and sometimes active revenue. The, the stats I gave you earlier on those five creators, I think four of the five were just straight up, you know, regular types of content creators that were not considered authors. It was, you know, cooking or food and nutrition or travel or... And again, posting massive numbers. So. Yeah, I think you're 100% right. And I think as those avenues for creators to expand their businesses continue to broaden and grow, you know, POD and books are coming along with it. And I – you know, you look at people like Justin Moore and some of the others who are not only monetizing their content in a way with books, but they're also using, like you said earlier, books as a way to open doors to new opportunities with larger, you know, potential clients, and securing bigger brand deals and things, because they literally wrote the book on the subject, or... Yeah, I think you were definitely hitting the nail right on the head with that one.

Lauren: Well, and I think it's funny that you just said Justin, because I was going to say, I think that actually Sponsor Games was a really good kind of microcosmic example of this. Because that was a room full of 50-odd –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – more or less people, that were content creators, entrepreneurs, that very few of them would be what you would consider traditional authors or something, or somebody that would gravitate towards a book as, as a product for them. But almost every single person in that room had some kind of idea for a way that they could use a book as a part of their brand. And we've seen some of them come to life already, some of them that are, like, really thinking about different ways to do that. And the same with Momentum last year, too.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: There have been a handful of people since Momentum last October that have published books, that none of them are content creators that are traditional book creators, but they've turned that content into a book in some way or another. And I think we're seeing a lot more of that, and... and we're gonna keep seeing more and more.

[45:59] – Outlandish Predictions and Resolutions

Matt: Alright. Let's wrap this up with a few fun statements we made.

Lauren: Well.

Matt: Predictions, if you will.

Lauren: I – fun, fun is a word for it. Cause we made... we made some ambitious predictions for ourselves that we're gonna do a mid-year check and see how we're doing on these. So my, my first one was, I thought that Matt was going to publish another book in 2026.

Matt: I'm halfway there.

Lauren: I was going to say, I still – I don't think I'm wrong. Because there's still six months left in the year.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So I, I still stand by that one. I think you got another book coming out this year.

Matt: I do. I said that 2026 was going to be a busier year for me than 2025. And unfortunately, I was correct about that.

Lauren: You were. You were. Which was your excuse for why you weren't going to publish a book this year. So.

Matt: It was my excuse.

Lauren: But I think, I think both can be true.

Matt: Well, you end up with a lot of time in hotel rooms at night, and you just start working on things.

Lauren: Yup. Well, I also –

Matt: Which brings us to –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Dun dun dun.

Lauren: I said I was going to finish my EPCOT passport and publish my book this year. Which I have made progress on. It is – I have made more progress on it now than I – like it's, it hasn't been untouched since the time this episode came out. It's not done yet, but I have made progress on it.

Matt: I think it's time –

Lauren: So I – there’s still time.

Matt: – for us to, to start a GoFundMe for your book. Because it's, it's hanging on by life support. By a thread.

Lauren: I think the GoFundMe that we need to start is, is give Lauren a two week vacation so that she can do –

Matt: That’s not a GoFundMe. Your book is on life support. It's dying.

Lauren: Yeah, okay.

Matt: It needs GoFundMe money.

Lauren: Alright, I will – I'm working, I'm working on it. I'm working on it.

Matt: My goodness.

Lauren: Ask me again in a month.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: I made a terrible, terrible statement/prediction. Not terrible. It's terrible that it hasn't come true.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: But I said I would go to Disney parks at least four to five times –

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: – in 2026.

Lauren: And how many times have you been so far this year?

Matt: Once. So I'm way behind. And no, no trips on the horizon. So yeah I, I failed that one miserably.

Lauren: I mean, if it makes you feel better, I also I agreed with you on that one, and I also have only been once so far this year. Which is a very low –

Matt: It's worse for you –

Lauren: – number for me.

Matt: – because you're supposed to be –

Lauren: I know.

Matt: – tracking the value of your annual pass.

Lauren: Which I will, I will say that I did for the one trip that I did. So I, I was – I did say that I was going to track the value of my annual pass and whether or not it was worth it. And I did do that for that one trip. And I do have two more trips booked already for this year, so I will be using it again. But definitely less frequent than in years past.

Matt: Yeah, I mean, that's a shame.

Lauren: It is.

Matt: For both of us.

Lauren: But there's still time.

Matt: There is, yeah. Maybe I should go work on that after we finish recording.

Lauren: I think you should.

Matt: You had an interesting one that you noted here that I... I don't actually recall you talking about this? Briefly, but – you said you think we're going to hit some really cool milestone in 2026. What is that?

Lauren: Well, so we... this was episode, this original episode that we did was episode 100. And we thought that was a pretty cool milestone, that we'd hit 100 episodes.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: So I was going to try to find some kind of cool milestone that we could hit this year, that isn't necessarily a number, an episode number count.

Matt: Gotcha.

Lauren: But I'm still not entirely sure what I want that to be. Because, you know, it could be followers, it could be downloads, it could be episode plays. It’s hard to set a goal like that. Like, that... that is a little bit more variable than something like how many episodes we've put out this year. So unfortunately that is... It's still something that I'd like – I'd like there to be something that at the end of this year we can say wow we, we did something new this year that we haven't done before. And it was pretty cool. Maybe...

Matt: We've maintained our jobs.

Lauren: We have maintained our jobs.

Matt: Despite this podcast.

Lauren: There is that.

Matt: Or in spite of this podcast.

Lauren: There, there is definitely that. But.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: I don't know. Something’ll come to me.

Matt: Alright.

Lauren: We've still got time.

[50:49] – Episode Wrap Up

Matt: Well overall I don't think we did too bad.

Lauren: No.

Matt: We didn't need Madame Leota here to tell us. I think we did pretty good.

Lauren: I think so too. And I think... Do you have any, any, anything you want to add? Any –

Matt: New?

Lauren: Yeah. Any new –

Matt: Speculation?

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: For the rest of the year?

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Okay. But it's cheating, cause I already know. There will be a much easier direct sales solution coming to market soon. Where you don't even have to worry about taxes and shipping mapping and all that stuff. Should be in market a couple of weeks after this episode airs. So that's a prediction.

Lauren: So you, you predict that direct sales is going to be, or selling direct is going to be easier and more predictable than ever before?

Matt: I predict there is something coming to market that is going to make it easier than it's ever been.

Lauren: I like it.

Matt: So, you know, there is a lot of – there's a lot of pushback on direct sales, and rightly so for some. It can be complicated, sometimes, to figure out the taxes. And sometimes the shipping mapping is not so obvious, and if you don't pay the extra, you know, to Shopify for, you know, live shipping rates, things like that, it can be a little complicated. And... Yeah, so I mean, you know. We talk about it every day like it's easy. And to us it is. And for a lot of people it is, but for others it's not. So. There will be something coming to market. From Lulu. In July. That will make it way easier to, to sell directly to your readers from pretty much anywhere. So we're very excited about that. So it's not really a prediction. It's a little more of a...

Lauren: Manifestation?

Matt: Yup, a little more of a sneak peek, I would say. Yeah.

Lauren: Alright. Well, I can't wait to see that –

Matt: Inside market information.Yeah.

Lauren: Can't wait to see that prophecy come true.

Matt: Otherwise no real predictions for the rest of the year. I'm going to stick with what I have so far. I would probably amend my Disney one. So I've gone once this year, I'm going to say I'll go at least once more this year. I'm going to fall shy of the four to five times that I predicted.

Lauren: Never say never.

Matt: So I'm amending that one.

Lauren: Never, never say never. You don't know.

Matt: Yep. What about you?

Lauren: I don't know, I don't... I think. I think there's going to be some really cool breakout book published using Lulu this year. That's, that's going to be my absolute – I think someone's going to have some really cool – Like, like a creator like Justin or someone like that, like there's – someone's going to like, come out of the, come out of the blue with a really cool project or a really cool brand or a really cool something in the next six months. That we're going to see yet another way that somebody has –

Matt: Yeah. Gotchu.

Lauren: – come up with an out of box, very cool, unique way to use Lulu and print-on-demand as a way to grow their brand. And I love when that happens, so I'm excited for that to come true.

Matt: Alright.

Lauren: Alright.

Matt: That's a good way to end it.

Lauren: I think so too. And if somebody's listening wants to be that person, please go ahead and do it. No time like right now. Seize the day.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, a really cool breakout book could be something like an EPCOT passport. Or something that really made Disney a little more fun beyond how fun Disney can be. But yeah, we'll leave that one open. Maybe somebody’ll...

Lauren: Maybe somebody someday'll...

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Someday – Someday somebody will write that.

Matt: Maybe I've got one in my drafts folder. Just kidding.

Lauren: No you don't.

Matt: Yeah I don't.

Lauren: Alright. Well, if you've got a breakout book idea, let us know. Or just go ahead and publish it, and then let us know when it's live. And you can do that by emailing us at podcast@lulu.com. You can leave comments on YouTube, on Spotify, on any of Lulu's social media accounts. Reviews on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And you can tune in next week for another new episode.

Matt: You know what?

Lauren: What?

Matt: We are still sitting at like the same number of reviews –

Lauren: I know.

Matt: – on Spotify and Apple. So I'm just, I don't even care. I'm gonna go ahead – anybody who gives us a review on Spotify or Apple and emails us a screenshot of it. I will send you – I will personally pack up a Lulu swag pack and mail it to you.

Lauren: Alright.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Let's do it.

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: Okay. Well.

Matt: So.

Lauren: Get on that. Do that. Email us at podcast@lulu.com.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: And let us know. And until then we'll be back next week.

Matt: Yep. Thank you.

Lauren: Thanks for listening.

Matt: Later.