Matt: Welcome back, everyone, to a super exciting, action-packed, drama-filled –

Lauren: It is gonna be –

Matt: – episode.

Lauren: – drama-filled.

Matt: Yeah, it is. Of Publish & Prosper.

Lauren: That sounded a little sarcastic, but I think that –

Matt: No, it's not.

Lauren: – this is actually –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – an exciting and –

Matt: I'm just in a weird mood today.

Lauren: I know you are.

Matt: But I –

Lauren: It’s okay.

Matt: – this is one of my favorite topics.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So, yeah.

Lauren: This was your idea.

Matt: I wasn’t being sarcastic.

Lauren: No, I know. This is a special request by you, for you.

Matt: By me, for me?

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: And for our listeners.

Matt: Well, yes. Primarily for them. I know all this stuff already, so. It is for them.

Lauren: I actually learned some things while outlining this.

Matt: Did you really?

Lauren: I did.

Matt: Okay. Well then, you need to share with them what you learned, too.

Lauren: I will.

Matt: Alright.

Lauren: When we get to that part.

[1:12] – Episode Topic Intro

Matt: Today, we're talking about print books and how to design a print book. How to know what to look for when you're designing a print book. And essentially all things print. It's no secret that people like print. Print books sell. When you're doing it the right way, the margins are great. And they still outsell ebooks, almost ten to one. So. Actually, I think it's more like eight to one right now, but. Either way. So with the surge in people offering them, we're seeing more and more people out there online complaining about things that, you know, problems that probably could have been alleviated had they understood certain things about print, or had they just used Lulu. But nonetheless, we love print. We love talking about print. And so we just thought it was time for another episode about really how to design and produce a good quality print book.

Lauren: Yeah. I think this is really important, and I think it's going to be a lot of fun for us, honestly, too. Because it's not necessarily how to design them in terms of like, here are like the step by steps on how to format something, or here are the step by steps of –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – how to lay out your cover. That's, that's not what this episode's about. It's more along the lines of like, here are all the different options that are available to you that you need to think about when you're putting these things together. Especially how they all fit together, how they impact each other, how one choice might impact your decisions later down the road, how they impact the reader experience...

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Even something as simple as like, how things look on your laptop screen versus how they look on your actual, like, printed book.

Matt: For some of you out there, it's how does it impact your wallet?

Lauren: That too.

Matt: Every choice you make on a print book’s composition, the different elements, they each carry, you know, a different cost.

Lauren: It also costs, sometimes, your valuable time.

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: Because I think that one of the things that happens a lot with people is they think they've done everything right, they think they've gotten everything right. They order their proof copy, they're so excited to get it, and they open it up and it doesn't look the way that they imagined it. Like it didn't come out – the, the cover doesn't look right or you got the spacing wrong or something went wrong here. And then not only do you have to go back and redo some of the work you did to fix it, but you also have to wait that additional time. Now you've got to order –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – another proof copy and wait for that production process and make sure that came out right. So, you know, it costs more than – I mean, money for sure, there's definitely some bottom line to consider there, but there's also time and effort to consider too. So.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Lot of different ways that this could –

Matt: 100%

Lauren: – hopefully save you something.

Matt: Yeah I like that.

Lauren: Yeah.

[4:06] – Print Book Foundations

Matt: I think the first thing we'll have to to discuss for the context of this conversation we are specifically talking about digital printing.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Right? And most of the time we are talking about inkjet digital printing. There is offset printing, which is the more traditional way things, books, have been printed. But you hear us talk about that often. Offset printing is the type of printing where you have to do a minimum run.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Cause they load up one job at a time. And when you are setting up a, an offset printer for a job, it is extremely inefficient and not cost effective to set it up for one book or five books or ten books. They really like to do runs of at least a couple thousand, up to forty or fifty thousand, whatever. So the difference between offset and digital: print-on-demand is almost always exclusively digital. And should be, that's the nature of it. Offset is, is more traditional. So we're talking, today, everything to do with digital printing. Nine times out of ten we're talking about inkjet. That is the print-on-demand model and the print-on-demand way.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Yeah. Okay.

Lauren: That was one of the two things I learned today. Was I dug a little bit into inkjet versus toner.

Matt: Well what did you learn about inkjet versus toner?

Lauren: Like what the actual difference is in how they're done. So like the actual toner is laser printing. So it sits kind of directly on top of the paper.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: As opposed to inkjet which is actually real ink drying into the paper.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: Fascinating.

Matt: Yeah. And again if I'm not mistaken, toner’s dry and inkjet’s wet.

Lauren: I believe that's correct.

Matt: Mostly dry. Yeah.

Lauren: Which is also, you know, one of the things we've talked about when we talk about quality production, and we talk about why it takes more than 24 hours to do this.

Matt: Right, yeah. Yeah.

Lauren: Because these things quite literally have to dry.

Matt: Some things, yeah.

Lauren: So.

Matt: Well, and then, you know, there's glue involved –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – in the binding and stuff like that. Yeah.

Lauren: But, but yeah that's one of the things that has to dry is the the ink. Genuinely.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: On the paper.

Matt: Yeah. Which, you know, if you've ever gotten a book and immediately you open it up and all the pages were kind of wavy or stuff like that, and there's a lot of ink coverage. That's why, because they it didn't really get good drying time, or the paper choice was so thin that that amount of ink coverage just flooded it too poorly, and it wouldn't have allowed for it to dry completely flat, no matter how long you let it dry.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: So again, these are choices that are often made by either you or the printer. But you should be aware of, you know, why that might happen. Like why you might get a book that just got printed, but it looks like it's been sitting in a puddle of water for six months. So.

[7:00] – Exterior Book Design

Matt: One of the first things you'll do when you're choosing to create a print book is obviously you're going to pick a size.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: What we call a trim size. There are a lot of trim sizes.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And in fact, there can be thousands of trim sizes in general in the world. But for the most part, most books, especially trade paperbacks, things like that, they are typically 5 by 8, or 5.5 by 8.5, or 5 by 8.5, or 6 by 9. Those are the four most common sort of trade and paperback types of books you'll see. Hardcovers you will see anything from a 6 by 9. You'll get into some weirder sizes, 7 by 10, some of those others. But you know, for the most part, there's a general set of trim sizes that are the most widely used, widely accepted. You know, at the end of the day, again, if you're selling to a general audience, they're all typically used to one of those four sizes. You can't really go wrong with one of those four.

Lauren: Yeah, there tend to be some kind of like, industry standards for depending on what your product type is –

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: – what kind of book you're putting out. But specifically with self-publishing, and one of the things that's really cool about print-on-demand self-publishing, is instead of exclusively worrying about the conventional sizing for the type of product that you're putting out, think about the functionality.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: That you're looking for and think about something... You know, we've talked about this in other episodes. If you're creating a little reference guide that you're hoping your followers or customers or clients are going to be able to carry around with them, you don't want to make a textbook.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: So.

Matt: No 8.5 by 11s, please

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: They don't fit in my backpack that well. Yeah. This is one of my favorite examples.

Matt: Our friend Stephen –

Lauren: Our friend Stephen, who has his Disney Ready, Disney Park survival guide, that is the size on our website is literally called a Pocket Book.

Matt: Yeah. Yep.

Lauren: This is a 4 by 6 pocket guide. And this absolute fits in my backpack.

Matt: Yeah. If you're talking nonfiction business books, most of the time you're going to see them in 5.5 by 8.5 or 6 by 9.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah. If you're writing a business book, you know, with a fairly serious topic, you don't want to publish it as a pocket book.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: There is a perception out there from book buyers that if they're looking for a business book on landing better brand deals or sponsor deals or whatever that might be, they might not take this size seriously, even if the content inside is amazing. So you, like you said, you want to make sure that you're choosing a trim size that really fits your content, but also what your audience expectations are and what they're used to –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – with other books that they purchase in that same sort of genre, so.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: There are a lot of different choices throughout this that I would say, think about your customer while you're making that choice. Or reader, you know, depending on on what kind of book you're publishing. But we talk a lot about, in other episodes, like think about your goals for the book. And in that case, we're talking about think about your, your goals. Like, are you using it as a lead magnet or are you –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – using it as a product, revenue –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – driver or whatever? In this episode, when I say think about your goals for the book, I mean think about how you want your customer to use it when they have it. Because that is something that is going to impact your design choices.

Matt: I just want to address with each of these elements, these choices you're going to make around print. You know, some will have a financial impact and some won't. Trim size only has a financial impact when you go from an extreme size to another. So if you're trying to decide between a 5.5 by 8.5 and a 6 by 9, price is, is not an issue. That's not going to affect the price when, when the variance in the trim size is that small. If you're choosing between a Pocket Book size and an 8.5 by 11, of course that’s going to affect price. But if you're trying to decide between again, 5 by 8, 6 by 9, and you're thinking of cost, there should be no cost difference, not at that size scale.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. So binding types.

Lauren: Binding types.

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: We all kind of know I think at the very least paperback versus hardcover, right? I feel like that – if we have to explain the difference between a paperback and a hardcover, then this episode is probably already too in depth for you.

Matt: Yes, but you should also explain that those are the more commonly known public names for them. What are they actually called in the printing business? Most printers would call this perfect bound. Right?

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Paperback is what we as consumers call it. But, you know, at the actual manufacturing level, this is a perfect bound book.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah. If you see perfect bound, that is what it means. Paperback, softcover. However you want to refer to that.

Lauren: Please don't refer to it as softcover. Drives me crazy.

Matt: It is – Yeah, well, I don't like it, but it is called that in certain circles, certain places.

Lauren: In Lulu's publishing ecosystem, you can actually get three different types of books that have soft covers. I'm not calling them softcover books, but there's three different types of –

Matt: Well, the three different binding types, yeah.

Lauren: Yes. There are three different types of soft cover paperbacks with three different binding types. That first one that Matt just said was the perfect bound –

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: – paperback. We also have the coil bound, which is going to still have the soft cover paperback.

Matt: And this is really good for workbooks. Yes. Journals, notebooks, things where you want it to lay flat.

Lauren: This is that going back to the functionality thing. This is a great solution for anything that you're planning on having your customer write in it a lot. Or in this case this example here is a guitar lesson compilation. So there's a good chance that people are going to have it propped open on a music stand –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – or laid out flat in front of them, and they want to be able to have it lay completely flat. You can't you can't be holding the pages down –

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: – on a paperback while you're playing guitar with with both hands.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: That's not really conducive to learning. So that is something that Ricky thought about the functionality on that. And then the other paperback option is the saddle stitch option, which is most commonly used for comic books and magazines, depending on the page count on them.

Matt: And also, you know, an inappropriate name for something that's really just stapled.

Lauren: Yes. Yes. There are other print, like actual print shops that still use the stitching.

Matt: Yeah, it's rare, but yeah, you’re right.

Lauren: But it's, it's not very common anymore.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So.

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: Those are your, your paperback options. And then for a hardcover, we offer two different options for hardcover. The first one is a hardcover casewrap, which has the cover printed directly on it.

Matt: The design printed right on the cover.

Lauren: Yes. The cover, the cover art –

Matt: Yeah. That's right.

Lauren: – is printed directly on it. And then the alternative is a linen wrap with a dust jacket. And that is – the dust jacket, if you're not familiar, is removable. The cover art is printed directly on the dust jacket. And then the book itself has just the title and author name stamped on the spine.

Matt: Yeah. And not every company still does linen wrap, by the way. It's getting harder and harder to source good linen for book producers, and it's getting more costly. So a lot of printers have already switched over to other types. But in general, you know, for us right now, it's linen wrapped, foil stamped on the spine with the title and everything. Old school, like when you were a kid and you were in the public library and, you know, or at school or whatever that might be. And then yeah the, the design and everything is on the dust jacket itself. Which, by the way, requires an extra file.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So know that too, out of the gate.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah, these are all decisions – We, you know, we've talked about this plenty in other episodes. These are all decisions that you have to make kind of throughout the writing, design, formatting, editing process as you're going through. Because these are all things that will have different requirements. So if you decide that you want your book to be a dust jacket hardcover, your cover design is going to have different elements in it than a coil bound would.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Lauren: For sure.

Matt: The next thing you're going to choose is the cover finish. So we offer two choices right now. You have glossy, which is what you see on this dust jacket. So, shiny, ight? Slick to the touch. Probably withstands, you know, a little bit of water spillage or something, a little better than others. And then we offer a matte finish, which is almost this soft touch feel. It is a coating, by the way. It's, it's less to zero shine versus a glossy. It's a lot more common these days –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – than the glossy, I would say. So yeah, those are the two we offer. There are other finishes, obviously, and – But I think most print facilities these days are really trying to stick with these two, matte and glossy, and that's what we offer. Again, that doesn't affect your price. So, you know, it's really going to be more about aesthetic choice, what you think is more pleasing. These days we, we typically only see glossy covers on more educational titles, academic texts, things like that. I mean, generally a little more old school. Most other projects are choosing matte finish. So.

Lauren: As you're going through your design steps, one of the things that you do have to think about is retail distribution, and whether or not you are choosing to put your book in retail distribution.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: Because some of these options make your book ineligible.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: That's not one of them. Glossy and matte –

Matt: No.

Lauren: – covers are both –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – eligible for retail distribution. And I think actually, out of all the things we've talked about so far, that's the only one that doesn't have an impact on distribution eligibility.

Matt: That is correct. Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Most distribution channels now only accept the most commonly used design choices on the exterior cover of your book.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Most of – Actually none of them accept coil bound, or wire-o bound. None of them do dust jacketed hardcovers. They will accept casewrap hardcovers, and they will accept perfect bound paperbacks. So you are, you are fairly limited on your cover for distribution titles. Titles you're going to put into retail distribution. But you're right, matte versus glossy is not one of the ones you have to worry about.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: It's pretty much everything else.

Lauren: Yeah.

[18:11] – Interior Book Design

Matt: Which brings us to the inside, the interior.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Right?

Lauren: Yep. Which you really wouldn't think there were this many choices going into the interior, but there are.

Matt: There are.

Lauren: There are a lot of design choices inside the book, and we're not even going to get into the things like page formatting and stuff like that.

Matt: No, thankfully, I did not eat enough lunch today for that.

Lauren: I don't think there is – I don't think there's enough coffee in the world for that.

Matt: Well, I'm working on it. I'm trying. So we'll start with paper types. Obviously you've got a number of different factors when you talk about interior paper types. You've got, you know, what color paper? What's the paper weight, the thickness? Right? And then whether or not your paper’s coated or uncoated. Right? So we'll start with white versus cream.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: White is extremely common business books, nonfiction books, academic textbooks. Any books where you're going to be using a color interior, color does not look good on cream. I don't care what anybody says. And in many cases, because of how cream paper is made, it absorbs the inks in a different way. And you get – you come away with a less crisp photo or image. So white paper is great for, you know, again, nonfiction, business books, photo books, art books, all those things. You really want a white paper. White paper comes in coated and uncoated. Right? And different paper weights, just like cream does. Paper weights. We trade basically at a 60 pound and an 80 pound. 60 pound is our standard. So if you're just creating a nonfiction business book, you're going to choose a 60 pound uncoated white paper. 80 pound is going to be thicker and you're going to want it coated if you're doing things like photo books. You're going to need that thickness and that coating to absorb those inks and really make those colors stand out and pop.

Lauren: We actually don't offer 80 pound uncoated, and I don't think we offer 80 pound cream either.

Matt: We don't do 80 pound cream.

Lauren: Yeah. Because if you are going through, and we'll get more into the ink types in a second, but if you are going through the effort of doing something in premium color...

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And you really want those images to look good, the only way that it's going to be worth the premium color –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – is if you are printing it on 80 pound coated white paper.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: This is the thing the most often that when I'm at an event talking to somebody, I say, come over here let me show you our sample book, or let me show you so you can see the difference in these two books. Because I think it's hard to really, like, conceptualize it in –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – like, not having a physical example of it. But, you know. Which makes this really great content for an audio video medium, right now.

Matt: Paper weight can affect price, at times, based on number of pages and the size of the book. The difference between 60 pound and 80 pound, or a coated or uncoated. But it's not a big difference at all, if there is –

Lauren: For the price.

Matt: Right. And, and the same for choosing cream versus white paper, the difference is, is almost negligible, if even noticeable at all. Where you'll get into price differences, and heavy price differences, is is when we start talking about ink types. But. So yeah, white paper, 60 pound uncoated, is always great for just straight up text, black and white text all day long. Cream, on the other hand, should almost exclusively only be used for fiction trade paperbacks. If you wanted to create a very budget friendly paperback book, and it's a fiction, you'd straight up want to go with like, a 5 by 8 trim size, cream paper, standard black and white ink on the inside, you know. And that's it.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Right? Like that's the bare of the bare, you're going to get a nice book, but it is, is pretty much stripped down. So.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: That's cream versus white. That's paper weights. Again, for Lulu, it's 60 pound, 80 pound. Other printers may offer different paper weights based on certain project sizes. But when you're going through a platform like ours, you're only going to get a couple of choices. And there's reasons for that. And that's one of the things where you can create a book on Lulu, choose 60 pound uncoated paper, because it's just – maybe it's just a standard black and white interior. It goes on through to distribution. But when that book gets printed by somebody else, and they don't use 60 pound paper, maybe they use 50 pound or 45 pound, right? That's what they're going to use. And we'll get into that shortly.

Lauren: We – Yeah.

Matt: But I just wanted to point out, just because we only offer 60 and 80 pound, or those are the choices we give you for your interiors, that doesn't mean that other printers and other platforms, POD platforms, don't use other paper weights. So you should be aware of that.

Lauren: We are, we're putting a lot of weight on paper weight as a topic right now, and there is a reason for that, and we will get to that. But first, let's go through the inks really quick, because then I think that, I think we can go –

Matt: Go ahead.

Lauren: Okay. So when when you're figuring out your book interior, these two things kind of go hand in hand, like Matt and I both already said. But you are going to have to also choose the type of ink that you use within your book on whatever type of paper you're using. And that's going to be: Do you want it to be black and white or color? And then within both of those categories, do you want standard or premium? And very much going to depend on the product type that you're making. Very much, obviously you know, if you're just doing a novel or a business book or something that doesn't have any color in it, black and white. There's no reason to not do black and white standard.

Matt: Standard black and white.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Absolutely. That – it's a standard for the, for a reason. It's, it's very reasonable. We've also seen plenty of children's picture books or comic books or something that used just standard on the interior, whether it's standard color or standard black and white. There are so many great examples. It does not have to be the best of the best, cream of the crop perfect photo color for something like a children's book. Unless you want it to be like a gift book or something. It can be. But there are, there are plenty of times where things look really, really nice in just standard color or standard black and white.

Matt: Yeah. Standard color actually works out great. Like I saw a cookbook the other day that was done on Lulu, where, you know, in the cookbook their photos of the the prepared dish or things like that, like all cookbooks. But they chose standard color. And I've seen it done on 80 pound using standard color and looks great. So this is where, you know, ordering that proof copy and trying out a few different ways makes a lot of sense. And in the long run could save you some money, as well as your, your reader. Because the difference in standard color versus premium color is pretty large.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Like, when you talk about the fluctuation in print price, it almost always boils down to are you doing standard color or premium? A lot of these other things barely affect the price one direction or the other. Whether you choose glossy or matte, or 8.5 by 11 or, you know, 10 by 10, or – those things barely really affect the price to the degree where you're like, oh my gosh. But the difference between standard and premium, that's that's a whole nother story. So if you can put out a good quality project to your standards using standard color or standard black and white versus premium, you should absolutely do so. Because you will save your readers some money and you'll save yourself some money. Which ultimately turns into a larger profit margin, especially if you're selling direct.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So.

[26:01] – Print Variants

Lauren: And this is also a great way to put out variants for your customers. We've talked about this. We have an artist that publishes an annual planner with us. She, puts out a really fun, colorful planner every year. But some years she'll offer it in varying price points. And the way that she does that is by doing it in color or in black and white. And the black and white, it’s just the standard, basic black and white, is a lower price point. So customers that really want her book but maybe can't afford the full color version have access to that too.

Matt: Yeah, we've also seen people do variations on binding types.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So I'm glad you brought that up. Which can affect the price too –

Lauren: Sure.

Matt: – like we talked about. So, we've known a cookbook provider who did a really nice premium color casewrapped, you know, hardcover, like, really nice version. And of course, you know, it was a little more expensive. But they also did a paperback version, a perfect bound with standard color, which literally cut the price in half. And so if you were buying that cookbook for more utilitarian reasons, it was going to be used a lot. You didn't want to spend a ton of money on it, because it might get messed up and – you got that paperback version. If it was something where it was more like, well, I'll use it occasionally but, you know, I like a lot of nice cookbooks in my kitchen, or whatever. You bought that, that casewrap hardcover with the premium color interior. And it gave two different price points for her customers and gave them the choice. So, you know, that's a really good thing to understand, is how can I create varying price points for my books, for my customers, and still, you know, produce quality at each level?

Lauren: I think also not just in terms of the, the price point and the variety there, because that is absolutely a great reason to think about that. But again, like I said I would repeatedly throughout this episode, functionality for your customers.

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: Because absolutely, there's a very big difference between that beautiful full color premium casewrap hardcover coffee table book.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: That is a cookbook, that's a display, that's just going to be like a beautiful display on your counter. Versus maybe the, the cheaper standard color coil bound version that I can lay flat –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – on my counter and it's okay if I spill flour on it while I'm trying to figure out how much I need, or whatever is going on in there, because that is a little bit more functional and less display or perfect.

Matt: Can you hand me that other Nosferatu one by you?

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: The big one? So –

Lauren: Excuse me, it's Nosferatutu.

Matt: Whatever. That's right, I forgot. It's actually a cool and funny book.

Lauren: It's a great book.

Matt: But this is a great example. So, it's two different versions of the same thing. It's a larger size, full color, same story, you know, and the pages are standard color on the inside, on coated paper. But then they offer – and it's even noted on the cover – a compact black and white edition, which is also really cool. Like, and again, you know, cover is full color always, but the inside is just all standard black and white. Same story, but you know, you're giving your buyers, your readers, your customers, two different options. Let them decide which one they really want.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Either way, your content's getting out there into the world. And they'll appreciate having those options. So I really like this, and I like the fact that it calls out, you know –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – compact black and white version.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Like, this is a really cool thing to, to do and to experiment with. And, yeah, I love that.

Lauren: I think that variants – I think this is a conversation we're going to wind up having again soon, honestly, specifically about different variants of the same book.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And not just in terms of like, do a paperback and do a hardcover –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – or an audiobook and an ebook, whatever. But there's also, I was looking at the IBPA Pub U schedule recently, and they're doing a whole session on the importance of large print editions.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: And things like that, and like the, how there are really, like, there are opportunities for you to do the Taylor Swift thing and just recycle and remix your existing content over and over again in different formats, different variants –

Matt: Well, and it's not even – so you mentioned large print. That's actually not even recycling, that's just tapping into a whole new audience.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Which I never thought about that, until somebody asked me about large print last year, and they kept asking me questions about it. And I thought, well, this – why are you, I mean, I don't understand, why is this so –? And then they explain, like, they didn't realize until recently, they did a large print version of one of their books, and they ended up selling an extra, like, 500 copies of it into an audience they never thought about, which was an older audience that has trouble seeing.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: Even with glasses.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: And just by adjusting their file to be large print – which, you know, increased the size slightly in terms of how thick it was, but it didn't matter. It barely adjusted the cost of the book. They were able to tap into a whole new audience and sell, you know, more books. So yeah, it's not always even about recycling or repackaging. It's about reaching new audiences –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – or finding readers where they're at, where they want to be. We've talked about this a million times, I won't pick up an ebook. Like, I don't mess with ebooks.

Lauren: Which –

Matt: If you're not doing a print book and you want me to read your book, you're SOL, because I'm not going to read it unless there's a print version.

Lauren: Right. And that's – to that – that audience, specifically, it's exactly that. You know, my grandmother, she is not reading on an ereader, I'll tell you that much. So anyone who's saying, large print edition? Just turn the size up. She’s not doing that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: She's not doing that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So we got to get her the large print edition of these books. And it goes around the whole nursing home.

Matt: If anybody’s tried explain to their, their parents or their grandparents how to, to use their iPhone – Like, they're not going to use an ereader, and you're not going to show them how to enlarge the font on their ereader, or – Yeah. Like, do a large print edition and see what happens. The beauty of print-on-demand is you're not out any money.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Like, to experiment with it. If it sells, it sells. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Oh well, move on.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: I still ended up offering my book in ebook, even though I hate ebooks, because I knew there were people out there that only read ebooks –

Lauren: I know.

Matt: – and I wanted my book to be read. I am proud of you for that. But the point is, yeah, variations are not always just about, you know, some of the most obvious things. Sometimes you're doing a variation based on something completely different, which is tapping into a different readership or a different audience.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Different audience, different price point –

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: – different accessibility, different – whatever it is. So.

Matt: And to tie this back to ink types...

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Some of us would spring for the full color version of the book, because that's what we want. That's what we like.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: And we don't care about spending a little bit extra money to have that nicer looking book on our bookshelf when we're done reading it. Others are like, I'm a power reader. I just want to read through it, enjoy the content, move on. They will buy the lower price point, black and white version, whatever that might be. So.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Doesn't hurt you to create both.

Lauren: Absolutely not.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Absolutely not, so try it.

[33:08] – Fitting Design Elements Together

Lauren: But it's also important for you to understand – And this is why we spent way too much time talking about what all of these, these different design elements are. Because it's also important for you to understand how they all fit together.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: And how they all impact each other. We already talked about like, coated and uncoated.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: How, you know, that'll make the, the ink a little bit like set differently on them. But it's also something, you know, if you are – trust me, I've learned this from experience. If you are creating a journal or a planner or something that you plan on writing in every day, that same ink that goes so nicely, it prints so nicely onto that 80 pound coated paper, doesn't write very well on that paper. So if you're planning on writing in your books, or you want your customers to be able to write in your books, you need to use uncoated paper for that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So the these things kind of kind of fit together in different ways. And I think one of the biggest ways that we've seen is the paper weight impact on the book size.

Matt: Paper weight and page count. Both –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – contribute to spine size.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And the binding choice that might be best for that book. So paper weight, yes. The thicker the paper, the thicker the book is going to be. That's going to affect your spine calculations and how your, your designer needs to, you know, alter your cover to, to make the spine work so that the text on your spine is not wrapped under one side or the other because you went to a different paper weight. Which earlier when I mentioned, if you choose 60 pound on Lulu, you run your title through distribution and let's say the ‘Zon prints it on 45 pound paper... Right? Your spine is off. They're still going to print it. They don't care. But the point is understanding that paper weights can affect the thickness, which affects your spine and how that text appears, is really important. Secondarily, page count and paper thickness can affect binding types and how efficient and successful the book is bound. If you've got a 800 page magnum opus on, you know, whatever, 800 pages, I don't – That's a tough one, right? I would probably do a case bound on that. Because perfect bound on 800 pages, while it can be done, and we, I think we go up to 775 for perfect bounds, something like that. You're getting into like, super thick, dangerous territory where if that book gets opened too many times, that spine is going to crack. I don't care how good of a printer you are, what type of technology you use, when the spine is that thick and it's a paperback or perfect bound, you're only going to get so many opens on that thing before it starts cracking. So consider cutting up an 800 page book into two volumes, maybe. Or you really do want to think about going with a case bound so the spine can stand up to the thickness and the constant opening and things like that.

Lauren: We didn't really get into this, and we're not going to in this episode, but when we talk about binding types, it's not just the difference in the cover, like the soft cover versus the cardboard hard cover, it is quite literally how the binding is, is sealed and put together and assembled and held together. So when you're talking about how something, how a casewrap is going to be a little sturdier long term.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: It's because there's, there's different elements of the process that are holding it all together.

Matt: Yeah. Mainly in this context it's done at the facility level, the manufacturing level. But you're right, yeah.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So page count that is important to note. Also Matt did slip this in there a little bit that we do have minimum and maximum.

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: For page, for page count on different trim sizes and different binding types. And that also is something that will affect your retail distribution.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So I will have linked in the show notes a link to the pricing calculator on our website. That is a really great tool for going through and playing with the different like permutation and combinations of all of these design choices, and it'll help you see what's available, what isn’t. If you plug in like, my book has this number of pages in it and that does not work with one of our binding types, it'll immediately tell you that.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So, definitely worth knowing, for sure.

[37:49] – Designing for Print vs. Digital

Matt: So there are some things that you need to know when you are designing a print book that are different from doing your ebook.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Or your audiobook. Obviously there are different ways to work with color when you're –

Lauren: Okay wait, I'm actually going to interrupt you. Because while I understand you want to talk about print and not ebook and audiobooks, I also mean digital just in general. So if you're somebody who's used to making... if you're saying, oh, I'm, I'm gonna design my print cover for my book because I have a lot of graphic design experience from all of the infographics that I've made for my Instagram account for the last ten years. That's designing for digital, not designing for print. A lot of us are used to designing in a digital format these days without even thinking about it, because that's where most of our content exists.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So as we're shifting from the mindset of of designing content and producing content for digital versus creating a content or a piece of content that's going to be printed in the real world, there are some things that you have to think about.

Matt: That's where I was going. But thank you.

Lauren: Well, you ran in right away with the knock against ebooks and audiobooks.

Matt: Of course.

Lauren: So.

Matt: That's how I always do it.

Lauren: I know.

Matt: What I was going to say was beyond that, most digital content is created in RGB.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Right. What you have to understand is that printed physical stuff use the CMYK. The two are different, right? I learned this the hard way on my own book, as well as some of the things we do here at Lulu. I've seen a few occasions where our designers will design a banner for us that we use at an an event or trade show. By the time the files go over to who creates the banner for us and we get the banner, it’s darker in color, or something like that. But understanding that yes, all digital mediums are almost exclusively done with RGB color spectrums, and print stuff is always done, almost always done CMYK.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: So that being said, you really need to make sure that your designer is looking at how is that digital file that they're creating, in RGB, what is that color going to look like in CMYK? Right? And we need to make sure that people understand that you could literally get back a book with a cover that is three to five shades darker or lighter than what you intended. So when designing, understanding the difference between designing for digital output versus designing for print output –

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: – can be a life saver. And can save you from having to order a lot of proof copies, trying to figure out what the hell is going on, why you keep getting one with a cover that's different –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Right? Than what you thought you had. So.

Lauren: There's always going to be some kind of variation between those, even if you get it as close as physically possible. There is still going to be some kind of variation between what you're seeing on a digital screen versus what you're seeing in physical print –

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: – in your hands.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: If for no other reason than the way that light is produced, light and color are produced. Like –

Matt: Yeah. You might have your monitor color, you know, turned up or turned down or something's off. Yeah, there's there's going to be tiny variations. You should expect that, for sure.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: But wild variations –

Lauren: Well.

Matt: – are a different story.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And most often than not, it's because you or your designer, whoever handled that, didn't understand or pay attention to the fact that RGB and CMYK are two different things, for the most part, and print is almost always exclusively CMYK.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Also just, on this topic, the same can be true not when – not just in terms of color, but in terms of just actually designing your book itself and the layout, whether that's the interior or the exterior. I think, you know, when you're thinking about trim sizes or when you're thinking about your page layouts, when you're thinking about the, the blank space on your page... I mean, maybe it's just me, but my spatial awareness about what size something is on a laptop screen versus what it is when I print it out in front of me is never – it's, it's always different than what I think it is.

Matt: Same.

Lauren: So that is something that just you're, you're gonna save yourself a lot of time later. If you keep that in mind while you're in the design process.

Matt: Yeah I agree. That's a, that's a really good point. And I mean, we've already talked about this a thousand times if we've talked about it once – I think we talked about it two episodes ago. You know, if you can afford it, just hire a good cover designer.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Let them deal with all of this. Let them worry about it. You still need to know these things, right? You're the one that's going to be in the proof copy. Theoretically, but you know. Yeah, if you can afford it or if you've got a good trade out system with a few other creators and designers, let somebody else design it. Let them deal with the –

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: – converting RGB to CMYK. And you know, things, spatial awareness, all this other stuff that we’re – I'm not built for that.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: I don't think you're built for that.

Lauren: Nope.

Matt: So me, I let other people deal with that.

Lauren: But, but yes – And that's, we –

Matt: And still had issues with it, right?

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: For different reasons, which we'll get to. But.

Lauren: But that is the, that is the thing that we were talking about with, you know, somebody could be a graphic designer that has a decade of graphic design experience but has never done a book cover before.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: Versus –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – somebody that only has a few years of experience but has done hundreds of book covers in that time.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: That person, they probably already know that they need to convert that file into CMYK before they export it. And maybe even design it –

Matt: They learned that lesson the hard way too.

Lauren: Yes, they've learned that lesson already for sure.

Matt: It's unlikely somebody taught them. They probably learned it the hard way as well.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Yeah.

[43:43] – Understanding Print Variance

Lauren: So do you want to get into your very specific how you've learned this the hard way?

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Yes. So I ordered copies of my book.

Lauren: Yes you did.

Matt: For this episode, by the way, so that we could look at, you know, and use it as an example. Shameless plug for my book. However, you know, completely coincidental, but right on topic. When the book showed up, I opened the box. No padding in here, by the way, I've got to point this out.

Lauren: I – that's true. I did see him open this.

Matt: Very poorly packaged.

Lauren: I also, before you even take those out, I am going to take a moment to put up on screen the digital file of what this cover looks –

Matt: Oh, of this?

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So, so you guys can see what the original, like, this is the print PDF file that is in Matt's account. Okay.

Matt: Yeah. So when I pulled the books out, though, it was very visibly two shades of green, if not an actual full three shades of green. Same file, same cover file, right? But definitely different shades of green.

Lauren: And this was just one – you ordered three – this was one order of three copies?

Matt: One order, three copies, came from the same print facility, the same retailer that I ordered these through. The spines, too, like the printing on the spines is different for all three of these. Right? So, you know, in this top copy the, the text, my name, the name of the book right up onto the top of the spine. The middle one it's actually lined up almost perfectly. The bottom one, everything is shifted down to the bottom of the spine. Again, same interior file, same cover file was used for all three of these books, yet I got three different colors on the cover. I got three different versions of the spine. Right? So there's a lot of things that you have to be aware of. More than likely one of these books for one reason or another. The one with the lighter cover was probably printed on a toner machine. Maybe. If not, I cannot explain why one is lighter than the others. But I can tell you that a digital toner machine versus a digital inkjet machine, a digital toner machine will often produce a color pattern that is a lot more accurate to your file than an inkjet, at times. My file is a lot closer to that lighter green –

Lauren: This one?

Matt: – than the darker green. Yes. It's still not quite right, but this color is the closest to what my file looks like. This is way off. I don't hate it. It's a nice green –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – but it's way off. On top of that, the lettering is supposed to be an off white, like a cream.

Lauren: And I didn't realize that until I held these close up, that the white on these is two different colors.

Matt: And this one.

Lauren: Right. Right.

Matt: Right. Yeah.

Lauren: So it's not just that the green color –

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: – is different on each of these.

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: The white in the letters

Matt: The spine variations are because they used a thinner paper.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So my book was set up to use a 60 pound paper. This is, I believe, a 45 pound paper they're, they're using. Which shrunk the spine size a little bit, which made it harder for them to actually get the spine text perfectly centered the way it should be. Which, you know, again, just makes everything else off a little bit. So...

Lauren: Should we be clear about the fact that it wasn't one of our printers that did this?

Matt: Oh yeah. Well, this is Amazon, straight up. I'm just going to say – I don't care. I ordered these from Amazon –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – cause I wanted to, I wanted to see like what the difference would be. And again, completely coincidental that they showed up different colors. I expected to get three mediocre-ly printed books.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: And that was the point, was like, okay, let's look at the quality differences and – But when I opened the box, I was both pleasantly surprised because, oh cool, they just proved the point.

Lauren: Yes. Yeah.

Matt: But also like, had that WTF moment. Like what? Like, these are all different in different ways. Like. And if I'm a, if I'm the average person who doesn't have the background that I do in book printing and stuff, like I would have been like completely dumbfounded and upset. And in fact, for fun, I did go on and Google search. There's a facility listed in the back. And I just, I Google searched that – Not even facility, like, I just – there's a town in a state, and I just Googled like, books printed in, and there's a whole subreddit on books printed by Amazon at this particular facility where stuff was just wrong. That's another thing you don't have a choice in, most of the time. Which print facility is actually printing your books when you're working with someone who has a large network –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – of printers. There will be quite a few times where your books are printed at various different facilities around the world, depending on who you use, and there could be variations if they're not extremely conscious of the quality that's coming out of those facilities.

Lauren: Yes. I wonder if that's the same facility... My friend came across a post on a subreddit a few years ago, that was somebody ordered – and it was definitely from Amazon – ordered a print copy of a romance novel that was like a novella size. And the copy that they got was an 8.5 x 11.

Matt: Oh no.

Lauren: And it just had, like, it just had like four inches of margin –

Matt: Oh my god.

Lauren: – around, like the book interior –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – was still the right size.

Matt: So they didn’t expand it to fit 8.5 by 11, they just –

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Wow.

Lauren: Yeah. But, but that is something that, you know, that is also something – And I already said we weren't going to get too much into the interior formatting stuff. But this is why those details like your margin and the safety area and the safety margins and the gutter –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – and all that are important. Because as I'm looking through this copy of, of Matt's book, that the spine was, the spine is, is not aligned correctly on this one. The interior is also not aligned correctly on this one, and your margin on the top is about a quarter inch, and on the bottom is almost a full inch.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And I know that that's not what that's supposed to look like on the print interior file. So that is why you want to make sure that you get those design elements right.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And those safety margins right, so that there is room for error.

Matt: Yeah. And again, this isn't to sit here and bash Amazon at all. Most print-on-demand facilities, their goal is to do a great job. It was just somewhat kismet or –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – coincidental that I happened to order these three for this episode, and they did show up proving a point that we were making in some of this episode. So, you know, in a way, they kind of did right by us.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: As much as I hate to to to say that. They did right by us by doing wrong by me.

Lauren: Well, and, you know, I mean, you did say this is, this one is the closest to the, the correct –

Matt: Green.

Lauren: – color. Yes.

Matt: Yeah, it is.

Lauren: So they did, like, there is that. But I also – not, not just to knock on Amazon – I also don't want this to be in any way a dig against print-on-demand –

Matt: Absolutely not.

Lauren: – or digital printing.

Matt: Absolutely not.

Lauren: Variance are a very normal part of book publishing, including in offset. Absolutely –

Matt: Of course. Yeah.

Lauren: – all the time. You know, Matt’s made fun of me so many times for I don't pre-order books because I like to go into the store and buy them, because I like to pick out my copy. One of the reasons that I like to do that is because all the time I'll be looking, especially as we get these books that have like fun embellishments on them. If you, if you get a book that you have – like if you see a book that's traditionally published and it has the spot embossing or –

Matt: Spot UV, yeah.

Lauren: – spot UV gloss on it.

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: Go through ten of those books and tell me how many of them it's aligned perfectly on them.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Because I bet the answer is one out of ten. They never get it right. There's always something a little off, like something's a little altered.

Matt: It's actually, I think sometimes more complicated with offset. Because you're, you're running machinery on a job of, let's say, I don't know, 30,000 book covers, right? Where you're hoping those plates stay perfectly aligned for 30,000 passes. It’s – so yeah, there is the ability for it to actually, the variations or the variances in what's tolerable, to sometimes be worse with offset.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Because you can get halfway through a run of 30,000, you know, 10,000, 15,000 in, and realize, oh crap, we've started straying off our mark a little bit or something like that. So, you know, again, this is not a knock on print-on-demand at all.

Lauren: Nope.

Matt: I still think this has become the superior technology. Offset still produces a great print, for sure, and has its place, we’ll always say that, I'll always agree with that. But print-on-demand is, is the way, clearly. Not to quote The Mandalorian, but it is the way. But you know, we're hoping that by arming you with a lot of this information, not only can you make better informed choices on designing and setting up and producing your print book, you'll have a better idea of what might be wrong when you get a proof copy back and something is not right.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Like how to address that, was it your fault, was it the printer’s fault? You know, things like that, so.

Lauren: Even just setting expectations a little bit for... there's going to be some variation and that's okay. And there is, you know, what is an expected and acceptable amount of variance between copies, versus what is something that you have to go back and look at the interior file or the cover file, or you have to reach out to the printer and be like... yo what, what is this?

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: No, no, not a good match.

Matt: That would be crazy if it was.

Lauren: I know.

Matt: Yeah.

[53:55] – Being Proactive with Your Book Design

Lauren: I want to talk about... not necessarily preventative. But like, if that last little, little bit of this scared you, I hope it doesn't. That was, that was meant to be like, just understand that these types of things are possible, that there is the possibility that there's going to be –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – some, some print errors, some variations. You might wind up with a cover that doesn't quite look the way that you expected it to. Something might have gone wrong somewhere. What can you do to either mitigate that or fix it after it happens?

Matt: Number one is to always order proof copy.

Lauren: Always.

Matt: Always.

Lauren: And we mean that in two different ways. First of all, you should always order a proof copy before you hit publish.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: Always. Always always always. Do not let your book go out into the world without ordering a proof copy first.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But one of the things that Matt has done is, you ordered a copy of your book from every different retailer that it was possible –

Matt: I did.

Lauren: – to order it from.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And I would consider that a proof copy too.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Because –

Matt: I actually have the others sitting over here too.

Lauren: Oh, good.

Matt: So one of these came from Ingram and then one came from Lulu, and then we have the Amazon ones. Now. They're all different still.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: But you know, the Ingram one, same issues really. White instead of cream text. Wrong green. Spine is wildly off, because they used, again, a thinner, cheaper paper, to be honest with you. The interior print is actually pretty nice and the interior file isn't crooked. So, you know, that one wasn't terrible. But again, it had, it had some of the issues. And for me, that's important because I'm a print junkie, you know? So I did remove my book from Ingram, because I couldn't get a consistent, you know, print version that I was happy with, that I wanted other people to get. Now, that being said, I created my files to work with 60 pound paper. If you created your files to be native on IngramSpark and you knew they were going to use 45 or 50 pound paper, and you were, you designed your file, then your spine should print more accurately and you might not have this issue. And that's totally okay. But because I wanted mine on 60 pound paper and that's the way I set the files up. And I didn't want to – I mean, visibly skinnier, by the way. Like.

Lauren: Yes, yes it is.

Matt: I just, I went ahead and removed it. And I also removed it from Amazon, or I'm in the process of removing it from Amazon, because I don't want it to show up wrong for every person that buys it on there. So I'm just going to keep selling it direct the way that I want it to be sold, the way that I want it to look. I don't want to sacrifice that just to have it available on other channels, so. I mean, look at the difference in the thickness on these.

Lauren: Yeah, it's, it's crazy. It –

Matt: Anyways.

Lauren: It was it really actually, you know, this was a few months ago at this point. But I remember walking into your office and it literally stopped me in my tracks that I was like, you had this stack of books on your desk, and every single one of them was different.

Matt: If, if they're not going to change a particular thing, oftentimes you can design around it.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: If it's really important for you to be on Amazon or Ingram or you know, any of these other platforms, Draft2Digital, it doesn't matter. Then just find out what are their, you know, what, what's their printing guidelines and criteria, so that you can design around that. If, if they're going to, you know, consistently print two shades darker, then set up your file slightly different, have your designer lighten the original file by two shades –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – and you'll actually get the color you want when it prints.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: If you know they're going to use a thinner paper, make sure that spine is calculated properly so that it will print where it needs to be. Right?

Lauren: Yeah. Either make sure that, you know, make several different variants of your cover. This is the cover for 50 pound paper, this is the cover for 60 pound paper.

Matt: Yeah, you could do that. Yup.

Lauren: Or make sure that when you're sizing your spine, when you're laying out the elements on your spine, you leave some, some room for adjustments in either direction so that it doesn't really matter if it isn't really that noticeable one way or another. So, you know –

Matt: That's a good point, actually. That's true. Like, the beauty of print-on-demand, by the way, is I removed my book from these –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – other channels because I just didn't want to deal with it. I was like forget it, it's not that big of a deal to me. But again, if it is important for you to have your book on all of these retail channels, knowing they're each going to print it the way they're going to print it, you can create separate files for each channel. A separate cover file for each channel.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: A separate interior file for each channel. Like, that's okay. And it's not complicated. And with print-on-demand, it's actually really easy. So you can consider doing that too. Yeah.

Lauren: Yes, absolutely. There are, there are ways to work around this. If it's important to you that you are on these different retail channels, but you also don't want to sacrifice the quality of the product, there are ways for you to solve this problem. Which is why we say not just order a proof copy to see what it actually looks like in print, but order a proof copy from each of the individual channels so you can see what tweaks need to be made. It's also a good opportunity for you to test the customer journey and the customer experience. Then you get to see –

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: – what it's like, what your customers are going through.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And then maybe you realize, oh, you know, like this one's actually... like it's really complicated. It's really – So I shouldn't be promoting this link. This link is just going to, I'm, I'm going to leave this in case anyone stumbles across it, but when I'm promoting, I'm going to promote this link, because this is like a one and done, one click and now, now it's in my cart and we're ready to go.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So.

Matt: Yeah, it's a good point.

Lauren: Absolutely do that. But even before that I would say, you know, not not necessarily even proof copies, but take the time throughout the design process, whether it's your cover or your interior, just print out what you're working on. Like I was saying earlier, that I have such a hard time sometimes conceptualizing what things are going to look like in print when they've been on my laptop screen.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: My old – my old job when I worked at the the publisher that I worked at, every single print ad and print book cover, before it was approved for submission. The digital file would be printed out in, in like a 100% scale –

Matt: In full size, yeah.

Lauren: – in full size, in full color, and it would be passed around, that physical print would be passed around to every person that was connected to that book project to be reviewed and approved by them. And there was almost always something. Because you'd see it, you would go down the list in order and you'd see like, a note from somebody that they had noticed something over here that they didn't notice, or the spacing was weird here, or something wasn't aligned here. And even just doing that. You don't have to get a proof copy for every single draft of your book that you do. But if you have the opportunity.

Matt: Or the ability.

Lauren: Or – Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: To just –

Matt: Not everybody has a nice full color printer at their disposal.

Lauren: No they don't. But.

Matt: But it is an option. Yeah.

Lauren: If you can, if you can make it work...

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Try it. It's better than ordering 17 proof copies.

Matt: Agreed. So, definitely order proof copy, though.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: Yeah. You might end up going through multiples as you find things wrong that you try to fix. But always order proof copy before you hit publish.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: Next, we talked about this. Make sure that either you or the designer you're working with, hopefully the designer, understands that, you know, there are differences between what they're designing digitally in front of them on the screen and what's going to print on paper in CMYK. Right? So RGB to CMYK, understanding some of that and some of the other things that they'll need to know. And then the last one would be, you know, what we talked about in the very beginning and throughout this episode, is when designing your book for print, knowing what your goals are for the book, who your audience is, how you want your book to reflect that and be received. A lot of that's going to weigh on again, those choices that you make.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So.

Lauren: Yeah. Think about how it's going to be used. Think about how it's going to be... You know, even like we were talking about the large print earlier. If, if you're doing a large print format because you're trying to create an accessible copy for an older audience, is it going to be so heavy that they can't physically hold the book? That's, that's not –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – you know? That's, that's not a great option either. So think about the functionality on things like that. Are people going to be writing in it? Are they going to be carrying it around? These beautiful hardcover, glossy, 80 pound coated full color books are gorgeous, but do you ever pick up a book? You ever like, in a bookstore you see a beautiful display book and you pick up a book and you're like, this thing's got to be like five pounds. Like –

Matt: All the time.

Lauren: This is, like, you know? You're not going to carry that around. I'm not in high school anymore. I'm not carrying my textbooks around anymore. So.

Matt: I just have images of carrying around like a big Taschen, like –

Lauren: Right? Could you imagine?

Matt: Which I have a bunch at home.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I have one for sharks and one for some other stuff. And they're just huge and heavy and like, I bought them because they're beautiful books and I wanted them. But they have a very specific place in my home. And yeah, it's not something I'm just going to toss in my backpack to, to bring to work to show people, or like – it's a big, heavy book.

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: But it serves its purpose like it's a beautifully done book.

Lauren: Yeah. That is something to keep in mind as you’re as you're designing these things.

Matt: It’s true.

Lauren: And if, if you really don't want to sacrifice that, make variants.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Make a coffee table version, and then make a this is the quick and dirty, we're going to mark it up, we're going to write all over it. You can spill whatever you want on it. Let's go.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And, and sell both.

Matt: I agree.

[1:03:58] – Episode Wrap Up

Matt: Well this has been fun.

Lauren: This has been fun. This is, this might actually be the longest episode, I – We'll see what happens when –

Matt: So far it is.

Lauren: We're at – so as of right now, on the clock, unedited, we've been recording for an hour and 24 minutes.

Matt: We really like print.

Lauren: We do. So... We're going to see how much, how much makes it into the final cut. But I don't know that there's a whole lot that's going to get cut out of this. So this might be a really long episode.

Matt: We'll see. Alright. Let’s wrap it up.

Lauren: If you made it this far...

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Cheers.

Matt: If you made it this far, consider yourself a print expert now.

Lauren: I think so.

Matt: Go educate all your friends and look cool on trivia night.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: If that's a thing. I mean.

Lauren: It sure is.

Matt: Alright.

Lauren: Absolutely.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But, yeah, hopefully you learned something. Hopefully we didn't scare you.

Matt: No.

Lauren: Hopefully... No, I don't think so.

Matt: That's not the goal.

Lauren: No. There are, there are always solutions. And I think that's the important part. There are always solutions to these problems. We also did that episode that I will have linked in the show notes too, the self-publishing horror stories and how to survive them. That was, you know, same thing. There are absolutely things that go wrong. They are not limited to POD, they are not limited to any one particular –

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: – publisher. The important part is there are ways to work around them, or work with them. And the more you understand about these different elements and how they work together and how they come together to make your book, the more you understand how to make them work for you.

Matt: Yeah. Yep.

Lauren: Nailed it.

Matt: I don't disagree.

Lauren: Alright.

Matt: Alright. Like. Subscribe. Leave a review. Leave a comment. Watch. Listen. All those things. Like, the checklist just keeps getting longer.

Lauren: I know.

Matt: Let’s just start saying do the things.

Lauren: Do the things.

Matt: Do the things.

Lauren: Please.

Matt: Yep. And then come back next week and listen again.

Lauren: Please and thank you.

Matt: And then do the things again.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Okay. Later.

Lauren: Thanks for listening.