Matt: Welcome to Publish & Prosper. Episode number 115. Are we not saying numbers anymore?

Lauren: No, we're not.

Matt: We’re not.

Lauren: But, I’m –

Matt: I just did.

Lauren: I'm glad that you did.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: I mean, this one's locked in solidly as episode 115.

Matt: So it's 115.

Lauren: So it's okay.

Matt: Yeah. Alright.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: 115 episodes.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: That's why I wanted to say it, really.

Lauren: Isn't that kind of crazy?

Matt: I keep forget how many we've done.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: And so yeah, sometimes when I look at the number on the outline you give me, I'm just like. Wow.

Lauren: I know.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: I know. it does – it does get me a little bit.

Matt: Are our follower counts going up or down?

Lauren: Well they're not going down.

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: So.

Matt: I would just think after 115 episodes of listening to us that they would be going down.

Lauren: Do you unfollow podcasts?

Matt: Me?

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: I have ones that I stopped listening to, but like, not that I, like, rage quit –

Matt: But if I stop listening to them, I actually unfollow them too.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Interesting.

Matt: I wouldn't consider that rage quitting. I just I mean, I think part of it is the marketer in me. I feel bad if I don't unfollow them because I feel like I'm inflating their metrics.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Isn't that weird?

Lauren: Yes, I get that.

Matt: But I also just don't wanna – like, if I stopped listening to them. It's just, it means the content no longer struck a chord with me –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – or strikes a chord with me. And that means I also don't really want to see it bubbling up in my Spotify feed. So I unfollow.

Lauren: See, I think that's... I, I completely understand that perspective, and I think that I, for the same reason, do the opposite. Where like like my favorite podcast I haven't listened to in... I probably, I probably have like six, maybe even nine months of episodes built up. Because I just, I spend so much time editing my own podcast that I don't have a lot of time to listen to podcasts anymore. And this is a fun one, not a one that's going to be related to work in any way. But I don't want them to, like, lose engagement from me. I don't – like, I still want to support them, I just I'm really backlogged on episodes. So I'm still subscribed, I still follow, I still pay for their Patreon, I like, I pay them monthly for content that I haven't listened to in months. I open every one of their emails that come – like, I still engage with all their stuff. I just haven't listened in a while. And I will eventually. There will be like a, a week or two where I binge all of the episodes that I've missed and catch back up again. But in the meantime, I don't want them to, like, lose out on my engagement.

Matt: But see, that's different.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I mean you, you have made the choice to say, I need to get caught up. Like, you haven't decided there's not value there. You just –

Lauren: That’s true.

Matt: You've gotten behind. That's different than saying, you know, I used to listen to this podcast all the time and for whatever reason, you're not feeling like it's bringing enough value compared to the other stuff you listen to. And all of our time is valuable. So, you know, when you stop listening to something because the value is not there anymore. I think that's different than just saying ugh, I got super behind on my favorite podcast. I will catch up. In the meantime, I want to keep supporting them and making sure that, yeah, that's totally different. So but I could see I would do the same thing and have on some occasions.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Probably not nine months behind like you are, but.

Lauren: I'm so behind.

Matt: I also don't listen to as much –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – podcast content as you do so.

Lauren: Well, I –

Matt: I don’t mean that in a bad way. I just –

Lauren: No, that's reasonable. And also to be realistic. This is – That particular podcast, podcast, it’s Podcast: the Ride, it’s a theme park podcast.

Matt: I don't think anybody surprised by that.

Lauren: No, they shouldn't be. they put out two episodes a week, and they're usually between an hour and a half to two hours, two and a half hours. So that's a, that's a considerable –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – chunk of time to dedicate to listen. Which, I love. I love their longer form episodes. I like, really enjoy that in content, in case you can't tell from the kind of episodes that we put out regularly. But it's not always feasible for me to be like, oh, I have a two and a half hour chunk of spare time right now.

Matt: Yeah, I wonder what that would look like if we tried to cut ours in half time-wise.

Lauren: Ha.

Matt: No? Alright.

Lauren: We can try.

Matt: For everybody listening, I tried. She, she vetoed it.

Lauren: We can try. I don't think we're very good at it, but we can try.

Matt: Alright. Today, on episode 115.

[4:38] – Episode Topic Intro

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: We are going to be talking about how to find and contract freelancers to help you publish a good book.

Lauren: Yes we are.

Matt: Yeah. So building a potential team of freelancers, or even just one or two. I think it's no secret we're big fans of working with other people to make sure you put out good content. But it's not always so easy to locate and contract or hire good freelancers. So that's what we're gonna talk about.

Lauren: Yeah. Just a couple of establishing statements right up front while we're talking about this before we get started.

Matt: We already got started.

Lauren: Well, technically we've been yapping for, like, 20 minutes already.

Matt: I know, I'm sure everybody can tell by the look on my face.

Lauren: We are definitely not going to be recommending specific freelancers or something like that throughout this episode. It's a valid question. It is something that we get asked a lot. Like –

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: Do you have an editor that you would recommend? Do you have a cover designer that you would recommend? And it feels a little bit like a cop out answer, but the reality is no. Because it's so varied based on what type of book you're, you're putting out. What genre, product, goal, like everything – like, you know, there are so many different types of specialists out there. It’s very, very unlikely that any one single person at Lulu is going to be able to recommend the perfect fit freelancer for what your project or your brand is looking for.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So.

Matt: For those reasons and many more.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yes. But I will link in the show notes, a landing page on Lulu's website that is some of our trusted and vetted partners and services that we recommend. But instead of this episode being something that we're going to sit here and recommend specific people or that we're going to convince you why you need a freelancer. We're assuming the premise here is that you're already aware of the fact that you need some additional help with your content.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So we're not really going to talk about the why or the who, but rather how. How to go about researching people, finding like, the right fit for you, what to look for, what red flags you might want to avoid, maybe. And, and things like that.

Matt: Yeah, I think that's well-put. Yeah. I mean, if anybody assumed we were going to come on and give them specific recommendations then I'm sorry we hurt your feelings, but. I'll give you recommendations. With caveats. But I'm not going to do it on microphone, no.

Lauren: Fair.

Matt: So yeah, I mean, some of us at Lulu will give you recommendations, you know, face to face. And after we can have a conversation about, like you said, what what are those, components of, of your content that would help us, you know, maybe guide you in the right direction. But to be fair, a lot of people at Lulu don't work with freelancers.

Matt: They wouldn't know what to tell you.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: That’s not the business we're actually in. So. But we do often have contact with freelancers, editors, designers, people like that. We do work heavily in the space of, you know, that area of publishing. There are many times where we have to have conversations with, with freelancers or designers or layout specialists or things like that. So this episode is to, to tell you, like you said, the how and the why and the where and – that's the important stuff, really.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I mean, word of mouth is great and we'll get into that. But, do you need a freelancer? Most of the time the answer’s gonna be yes. What's the difference between specialists and generalists? Are they, you know, are they a copy editor or are they more of like, a developmental editor that specializes in paranormal romance or, you know, things like that? Where do you find them? How do you research and vet freelancers? Like, seems like that would be easy, but it's not. And then what are the things that once you've chosen a few, what do you ask them? You know, what are some of the things that you should look for? So what are some of those red flags that you mentioned that you should be looking for? And what's the process of actually hiring one? What do they charge? Things like that.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: All the important stuff.

Lauren: All the important stuff.

[9:05] – What to Know Before You Start

Matt: So we often talk about, you know, do you need editors, proofreaders, someone to help with layout and formatting, cover design, illustrations, all those things? In general, I think we always err on the side of yes, you should. In most circumstances. It is usually deeply tied to the goals of your book, what kind of book it is, things like that, but. Almost always you should. Now, can you do all this on your own? Sure. And people do. Sometimes it works out for them. More often than not, there's some element of their book that is lacking because they did everything themselves. And, and sometimes that affects your sales and sometimes it doesn't. But, there's a bit of a gamble there if you don't seek some professional help with your book.

Lauren: Yeah. I think there's a lot of like, just because you can do it on your own doesn't mean you should –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – necessarily. I think that a lot of people... I mean, even some people that we know that have plenty of experience – like graphic designers. Just because you have a decade of experience as a graphic designer does not mean that you can design a book cover. Those are –

Matt: A hundred percent.

Lauren: Those are kind of different things.

Matt: They're very different.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Well, let's rephrase that. If you're a graphic designer that specializes in mostly digital, you know, let's say marketing. You're, you're used to creating assets to be used online for the purposes of marketing, or things like that. That's wildly different than creating a book cover that's going to sell books.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: There's a lot of different components of a book cover that you need to be aware of. That will immediately affect the sales cycle of that book. You know, it's not as simple as just developing a really cool image, finding the perfect placement, and moving on.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: You know? So.

Lauren: Yeah. So, you know, it's just it's one of those things that yes, you can do it by yourself. And that is one of the cool things about self-publishing. But I would definitely go through and just ask yourself, just because you can, does that mean you want to? Do you have the time to spare on it? Do you have the budget to spare on buying back that time by paying someone else to do it for you –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – instead? And what do you want the end result to look like? I think it's really important. Like, if you don't care, if you're like oh, I'm just, I'm making a notebook for myself that no one else is ever going to see or use or whatever.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: Like – yeah, whatever. Design your own, have fun. You'll learn how to use some tools while you're doing it, in the meantime. But if you're hoping to use this book as a lead magnet that's going to get you in the door with businesses and executives at at major businesses where they're going to be hiring you for speaking sessions... You want that book to look like it was designed by a professional.

Matt: Yeah. So freelancer marketplaces are really popular right now. There's a ton of freelancers within those marketplaces. It's very easy to get overwhelmed and and kind of just choose the first couple you see that maybe have between a 4.5 and 5 star rating or whatever. Or maybe they've got a couple of keywords in their description that jumps out at you or, you know, things like that. But you really do have to step back and think about this process. If you are going to make the intentional decision to, to hire a freelancer for any facet of your book, whether it's cover design, any form of editing or layout, or all of the above, take your time. Don't get overwhelmed. Don’t just settle for the first few that look like they have some pretty good reviews. It can get overwhelming very easy. So start with one skill set at a time. If you've decided you're going to hire an editor, start there. Right? It's also chronologically the –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – the most immediate help you would need with your manuscript, so. And spend some time researching. If I was going to go to a marketplace, I would pick no less than ten to fifteen to start with.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And then start whittling my way down, but. Just – Yeah. Have patience. It's very easy to go down a rabbit hole, try not to. And I don't really know any other delicate way to say this, but these marketplaces have become overrun with a lot of... I won't say bad actors, but people who have decided that this is an area where they can make some quick bucks. They oftentimes will employ AI tools to, to do the work. Or at least do a big chunk of it. So you really do need to do your research when you're using a marketplace. And that's not to say that you're not going to find really good freelance help in marketplaces, because you absolutely will. But it's also really easy to, at least at first glance, not really know who's who and what's what, and really be somewhat, you know, kind of taken in by just looking at a five star, you know, review or profile.

Lauren: I think it's really important to think about this as a long term investment. And not just in the sense that it's a long term investment in your book, in your product. But it's also, this is a part of your brand. This is something – you know, there are a lot of authors and entrepreneurs and creators that they work with the same editor for their entire career.

Matt: It's true.

Lauren: This is a, this – it has the potential to be a long term relationship. So you're not just –

Matt: It’s like finding a doctor or a tattoo artist.

Lauren: Yeah. Well, I would say a tattoo artist for sure, but I was going to say this is a job interview. Treat this as a job interview.

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: This is not – you're not hiring a, like, one time, I need somebody to come in and re-tile the bathroom once and only once. You're hiring somebody who is going to be rebuilding your house with you for the next ten to twenty years.

Matt: Maybe.

Lauren: Maybe.

Matt: If you're lucky.

Lauren: Maybe. But also, like, if you do that work now, you don't have to do it later.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: So.

Matt: Yeah.

[15:05] – Different Types of Freelancers 

Lauren: I also want to just point out one thing that Matt said in there. You said something about, you know, take it kind of one at a time with the roles, and I totally agree with that. But on the high level, take it one at a time. So, I was having a conversation with somebody recently, and they were talking about looking for an editor, and they needed to find a, they needed to find a freelance editor. And they were saying, well, you know, I know I need a developmental editor, and a copywriter or a copy editor, and I need a proofreader, and I need a line editor. And I was like, alright, hold on. Because, you don’t – first of all, you don't need to hire four different people. And second of all, there's a lot of overlap between those.

Matt: Yeah, a couple of those are almost the same thing, by the way.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: These days, but –

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So yes, you you need to hire an editor. But, you know, understand the different types of editing. And maybe you can find somebody who specializes in more than one of those at a time. Maybe you'll find somebody who is a developmental editor that also does copy editing, or works with somebody else who is a copyeditor.

Matt: I think you will more often than not, yeah.

Lauren: Yes. So, you know, to absolutely break down the approach as like, I need to find an editor and then I need to find a designer. But within those categories, it's okay to consider stacking those skills, or looking for – same with a designer. If you can find somebody that does cover design and interior formatting...

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Great. Bundle those things together.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: That's totally reasonable. But you know, just, just kind of take that approach one bucket at a time. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you need to hire a different individual person for every single role that you can think of or that you've ever heard of.

Matt: Yeah, I would agree with that. Like when I think about an editor or hired an editor, I am looking for one that can do multiple types of editing.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: I'm not – Yeah, I'm not trying to break that up into four different types of editors. My copy editor was also my proofreader. And quite frankly, for developmental editing, a little cheat code: I just used all of my beta readers. So I was fortunate that I had some really knowledgeable, intelligent, you know, and thoughtful people that were beta readers for me. And I just used that as my developmental editing. Right or wrong, it doesn't, you know, whatever. But, yeah, my copy editor was also my proofreader. And, you know, she also probably did a few other things, maybe developmentally, to be honest with you. But yeah, when I say that, I agree with you. I think that if you can find one that can do multiple, which is a lot more often the case now. Not only is that beneficial for you, because now they're very much accustomed to your, your content, your manuscript, and they're going to have that lens to be able to look through and understand. But, like you said, you can, you have that opportunity to build that relationship. So I agree.

Lauren: Absolutely.

Matt: So along those lines, I mentioned specialists and generalists a little earlier. You know, What would you consider a specialist versus a generalist? And why would I look for one versus the other?

Lauren: Specialists I think kind of in two different ways. We've already said like the different types of editors. So you could be a specialist in that way where you're a developmental editor versus a copy editor. But also within those specific niches, some types of specialists – A developmental editor for a romance novel might not be the best choice for you on your nonfiction how to marketing guide. Maybe. You never know. I could probably edit both of those, but There's only one of me in the world.

Matt: Thank God.

Lauren: But no, I think that is something that, like, you have to find the right fit not just for the role that you need. So not just for the type of work that you need done, but also for the work that you're producing.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So you need to find somebody – in, in certain areas of this, you're going to want to find somebody who specializes in this specific industry or genre or topic or whatever it is that that makes sense to you. You're not going to find a lot of success with a developmental editor that has exclusively done mystery novels for their entire career, and you are coming in with a medical how to textbook. You just –

Matt: That could also be interesting.

Lauren: It could be interesting.

Matt: But you’re right.

Lauren: But... Medical mystery book, could be great. But that wouldn't be my first choice, if I was recommending how you would go about finding somebody for your medical text, I would not recommend working with a fiction developmental editor as your, as your first choice option there. So. Specialists versus generalists, I think there are situations where kind of anybody could suit the role, and it's more a matter of what their skill level is than what their past experience has been. I think a copy editor could probably copy edit most pieces of writing, regardless of what the content or genre is. I think somebody that does interior book formatting, maybe the, the distinctions between something that's a very like, chart and image heavy –

Matt: A textbook, or academic –

Lauren: Yeah, like.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: You know, that might be a little bit different than something that's more novel, but –

Matt: Should be.

Lauren: But a novel versus business book... The formatting is more or less the same. The design choices might be slightly different, but it's still kind of the same. Justified margins.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Header or footer, page numbers.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: All that kind of stuff. So, you know, you can be a little bit more general when you're looking for somebody in that sense and keep the specializations for things like developmental editing and cover design.

Matt: That makes sense. Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Okay. So we've talked about sort of at a high level, the kinds of freelancers and the, the categories and whether or not you really should have one. Which we said we wouldn't, but.

Lauren: But.

Matt: We can’t not talk about that.

Lauren: We can't not. And, and like I said, we've done at least two episodes where we've gone much deeper in depth on those topics. So if you want to go listen to those –

Matt: We have.

Lauren: – they will be linked in the show notes.

[21:34] – Where to Find Freelancers

Matt: So where do we find freelancers?

Lauren: That's a great question.

Matt: The first one is – and you touched on this at the top of the show – word of mouth.

Lauren: Yes. You touched on this.

Matt: Well we both did.

Lauren: We did.

Matt: We said, while we're not going to give you specific freelancers on this episode, which would be word of mouth.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: If you come find me at a show or an event, I'll give you some recommendations. And I think that's, you know, like anything, word of mouth is almost always the best way to find someone that you need.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: You know? You mentioned getting tile done in, like, getting my bathroom re-tiled. Like, unfortunately, I didn't have any good word of mouth recommendations from friends or family. But, you know, there have been other times where I was doing something, another home-related or whatever. Where yeah, of course I'd much rather have word of mouth. Like, did you use this person? Was the experience good? What was the cost factor? Like, you know, the quality, all those things. So word of mouth is always best. And, you know, I think most authors, especially ones that are repeat, they probably have some sort of small to large network of other authors that they, you know, interact with. Like, put the word out there. Ask somebody. If you have a trusted, you know, network on one of the social media channels that you – just put it out there. Hey, I'm looking to hire a freelance copy editor. Does anybody have any good recommendations before I start diving into the forums and marketplaces? And I think that, you know, again, like everything else in this world, if you can get a good word of mouth recommendation, I mean, to me, that's the most trustworthy source of information. Friends and family or peers that have, that have used these people. It's, it's less research and vetting you kind of have to do, like you've got it from the mouth of a trusted person. Like yeah, I use this person for this service and they did a great job. The price was extremely fair. You know, they were timely, accurate, detail – whatever it is. So it's less work on your part to go out there and research and then interview this person, you know, super thoroughly and ask for ten samples of work and all that stuff. The problem is that there are times where you might put the word out there. You get a bunch of recommendations back. And sometimes maybe you're not actually getting the best recommendations. Because somebody might just want to be helpful and throw something out there. So if you can keep it targeted to, to very closely trusted individuals, that's often better for word of mouth. But nonetheless, you know, I think that's always the best place to start.

Lauren: I agree, if you're in the market for a freelancer of any kind, absolutely the first place that you should start is any kind of community group that you are in. Whether it's authors, writers, in your industry specifically. If you know anybody in your industry that has also published a book. Even if they have traditionally published a book, because there are plenty of people that work in traditional publishing that freelance.

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: In addition. So if you have a friend that traditionally published a book, maybe their editor also does freelance work on the side. You never know.

Matt: Or their book coach. So, you know, book coaches aren't something that are widely talked about. But I've, you know, run into a few in my ten plus years working in publishing. And, you know, book coaches are always a really good, at least the ones I've met, source of recommendations. Because they, they work closely with, you know, freelance editors and, and designers, and even, you know, publishers and printers and things like – You know, book coaches and book consultants are often highly connected to, to all different types of players in the industry, so. They're also a great source for word of mouth referrals.

Lauren: Agents also.

Matt: Sure, yeah.

Lauren: Book agents. That's part of their job, is to be in the know about different types of people that they could potentially pair their clients with.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: The second place that you can look to find freelancers, if the referral system isn't working out for you or you're not having any luck there, or even you just want to do some research on your own for a little while first. We've also talked about this already. It's marketplaces.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So there are a lot of online marketplaces. Some that are like already just really, really broad, kind of one stop shop for different types of freelancers, something like Fiverr or Upwork or Freelancer.com. Those are all, you know, they're not really going to specialize specifically in book production. But if there's a freelancer to be found out there –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – you'll probably find at least one of them on Fiverr.

Matt: Yeah, some of them do actually, like Fiverr. I haven't looked on Upwork lately, or Freelancer.com, or there's even, you know, a couple more out there. But, I do know that Fiverr has like, they've now categorized. So if you're specifically looking for freelancers in the world of book publishing, I think is the category they have. You can click into book publishing. And then it does sort of break them out and categorize them by – It's still overwhelming.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: There's still a ton in there, and you still need to be very careful about who you're, you know, reviewing and hiring. And in terms of, you know, the work being completed, who's actually doing the work, things like that. But yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. And there there are definitely some pros and cons involved with that because yes, it can be very overwhelming. It can be, you know, you're going to definitely have to do a little bit more manual research to, to vet whoever it is that you're considering to try to seek out some sample work or try to get an understanding, maybe testimonials, reviews, honest feedback from people, things like that. Are they legit? Can you, can you tell that they're actually –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – somebody that you want to work with?

Matt: Is it a real person or is that their sort of AI persona avatar?

Lauren: Right. Right. But I do think that most of these trusted marketplaces do also have a system built in, like a safeguard kind of built in. Where if you chose poorly and this person does not deliver the work that you've paid for, or something like that, you have a recourse for being able to, to go and be like, hey, I had a contract with this person and they didn't, they didn't produce what they were supposed to, can you pursue this –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – on my behalf? As opposed to if you go on Facebook Marketplace and you find a freelancer on there... Facebook is not holding that person accountable if they decide to ghost you with your money.

Matt: That’s right. Yeah. And then, you know again, one of the the advantages of using a marketplace is the review system.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So again, like other things we do in life, reviews can be a dicey situation. Like, I often actually don't trust them on most platforms, especially these days. They are mostly AI bots, which has been proven, especially on places like Amazon or whatever. However, it is getting very easy to spot fake reviews versus good ones. You know, you always want to sort by the most recent, but make sure you are reading through a pretty solid handful of those reviews and looking for very, you know, specific things. If there's a theme that's lining up in the negative reviews that kind of makes itself sort of prevalent. Like that's, that's a flag for sure. And those, more often than not, obviously are not bot reviews.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: They're, they're actual human reviews. So. But yeah, you have the reviews there to, to, to hopefully help you not make a bad decision. But I do think you're right. I think most of the ones that I've seen, there is some sort of a after the delivery fact sort of recourse around like, hey, this wasn't what was talked about, this wasn't what was negotiated. And this is not what I'm happy with. So, yeah.

Lauren: I also think that there's... because I agree that the negative reviews are almost more informative and authentic these days.

Matt: Sometimes comical.

Lauren: That too. But I always, when it's something that is subjective like this, I think that you can find... Sometimes just because somebody has negative reviews doesn't mean that they're not a good fit for you.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: And so if you read through the – this is the – So, this is not subjective. But one of the things that I see all the time when I'm looking at reviews for when I'm ordering clothing online, and I'll see things all the time that are like, two star review, because this dress was really cute, but it was way too long on me. And I'm like, all right, five foot two girly over here. The dress was too long on you. I'm 5’10”.

Matt: You’re not 5’10” –

Lauren: – a dress being too long –

Matt: – by the way.

Lauren: Oh, sure. Like whatever you say. But like a dress being too long on me is a good fit. Like, I need it to be that long. So you're giving it a two star review because it was too long. I'm actively seeking out these dresses that are being described as too long.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So, you know, the same, the same can be applied to something like this.

Matt: Well, this is part of why I don't like reviews in general, though.

Lauren: That's fair.

Matt: You know, if they're not created by bots, I'd say the other 50% take half of those and strike them immediately because they are things like that. Or like my favorite Mexican restaurant. Like.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: There's reviews in there that are terrible because they thought the tacos were priced too high. Like, really? Like you're mad because the taco was $1.75 and at your local truck, they're $1.50. Like, you didn't need to write a review for that, my guy. Like, eff off.

Lauren: Was your $1.75 taco really good?

Matt: But –

Lauren: That's what I want to know.

Matt: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and like you said, dress is great, but it was too long. Like, just be careful. When you're reading the reviews actually read them. Look for patterns, look for themes in the reviews. And again, look to see are these just general, like, reviews about, you know, something that doesn't really matter for you and your book? Or are there legitimate concerns that people are raising. It sounds like humans wrote it. And this is somebody you clearly want to steer clear of – move on. There's, there's enough freelancers on these marketplaces where if you even have a shadow of a doubt. Like it's a murder trial case and you're part of the jury, if you've got a shadow of the doubt, move on.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: There's enough of them on there. You don't have to be that nit picky.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So.

Lauren: It's also a great way for you to fact check referrals.

Matt: Yeah, that’s true.

Lauren: So if someone, if you get a bunch of people that, that are trying to be helpful and they have good intentions and they've never actually worked with this editor, but a friend of a friend –

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Lauren: – has a friend who is a freelance editor, and they pass a –

Matt: My friend's brother's fiance's –

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: – sister's boyfriend, who she went to prom with but then left her. He recommended this particular – Yeah.

Lauren: And I've heard they're great. And then, you know, okay, cool.

Matt: That's not even a referral.

Lauren: Thanks, if you say so. And then you can go search them out on some of these marketplaces and see if you can find more information on them there before you reach out.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Or make the decision not to.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And then the last – not the last place, because there's a variety, but the last one we're going to cover right now –

Matt: The three major ones.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah. This is the third.

Lauren: Yes. It's going to be dedicated organizations and communities. Which is not – I'm not confusing that with when I say referrals, or when we're talking about referrals, and we're saying go to your author community or go to your industry community or your Circle group for –

Matt: Right, yeah.

Lauren: –whatever. We're talking about, like, actually dedicated to these types of freelancers.

Matt: Right.

Lauren: So Editorial Freelancers Association is something that we have referenced repeatedly throughout episodes.

Matt: And every year they put out a really nice PDF of like, what are industry standard pricing for all the different services.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: It's an extremely helpful organization. And again, they they often publish a lot of great resources that will help you choose an amazing editor for your work. So honestly, that's probably where you should start anyways.

Lauren: Yes, I agree.

Matt: If nothing else, they'll give you a lot of great information that will help you guide – or navigate yourself, sorry – through things like choosing the right editor. So that's always a great place to start.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yes. Absolutely, highly recommend. I think the Nonfiction Authors Association also has like, not a database necessarily, but like, that's a great resource for you to go find referrals for freelancers that other members of that organization have worked with.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So I think these are really great organizations and communities to check out when you are looking for freelancers of any kind.

[34:28] – How to Research Potential Freelancers

Matt: When you are looking for freelancers, and let's say you're in the marketplace situation, or even if you got a few good referrals, but you still want to do a little bit of research. How do you research and choose the right freelancer? What are the things that you should ask? What are the red flags you should look for? You know, you mentioned earlier, which I think was the right way to categorize this. This really is like a job interview. I wouldn't stretch it out as long.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: The freelancer’ll probably take a pass on you, but you should absolutely interview them. There are things that you should know to ask and things to look for, right?

Lauren: Yeah, I mean, I think you should start kind of at the top with, with... if we're going to call it a job interview, you're going to start by putting together a pool of applicants. So, you know, you want to start by saying, okay, I need – this, this vast sea of different types of freelancers out there. I need to really narrow it down to a long list. And I need to start going out –

Lauren: This is where you go into your communities and say hey, anybody have any referrals? Anybody worked with somebody before? Also, anybody have any that you're like, avoid this person at all costs? That's, that's equally valuable in –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – in referral situations.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Like, hey, this person looks really great on the surface, but there's some red flags that you're not going to see until you're already under contract with them. So, you know, start asking around. If you don't have people to ask, but you're still using some books as comp titles, check the acknowledgments. Check the copyright pages and stuff like that, and see if you can tell from within the book itself who worked on that book.

Matt: So that's actually what I think the pro tip here is for –

Lauren: Yeah?

Matt: – this section. In our outline, Lauren has a pro tip here. I don't think that's the pro tip. I think what you just said is actually the pro tip.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: And that can be applied to a lot of things –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – in your publishing journey. And I don't think that's talked about enough. And I always forget about that. I'm glad that you brought that up though. Like, I can't tell you how many times I finish a great book. Like everything about it is great. It was well-written, like, well designed, well laid out, the cover’s great, like, you know, it’s just a great book. Like, from start to finish. Almost everybody who touched that book is listed in there somewhere.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: They're either in the front listed, as, you know, the editor. They this person did cover design. This person was the illustrator. Or more often than not, they're thanked in the back, in the acknowledgments – front or back, whichever – by the author themselves. Even if you're looking for an agent, boo, and you're not self-publishing, that's fine. More often than not, an author thanks their agent in the acknowledgments or something. So a great book is also a really good source of finding your next editor or designer or agent or whoever that might be.

Lauren: Yes. And it’s –

Matt: So comp titles, like you said –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: – I think that's great idea for a lot of things. So I'm glad you brought that up. That's the pro tip.

Lauren: Okay, I will I will accept that. But yes, I think that is a really, really often overlooked. I started reading the acknowledgment sections of books when I started working in the publishing industry, because I liked seeing my friends’ names in there. And, and then I started to – in the same way that we've talked about branding in other cases, where we've talked about like, you know, after a while you realize that a lot of the books that you read come from the same imprint. And now when I'm looking on bookstore shelves, if I see that imprint logo on the spine –

Matt: Right.

Lauren: – of a book, I'm more compelled to pick that book up, even if I've never –

Matt: You trust that imprint.

Lauren: – heard of it, because I trust that imprint.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Same kind of thing. I'm now surprised, although less so as I've noticed this pattern, when I'm reading the acknowledgments in the back of the books, and I realize how many books that I love have the same agent, or the same editor. Or have thanked the same group of – or they're like, connected, these authors are connected in some way, because they're all in a writing cohort together, or something like that. And there's a lot of – if there's, if you're trying to figure out your cover design and you pull twenty book covers that you really like... I bet there's some overlap in the cover designers.

Matt: Yeah. I never paid attention to the acknowledgments sections until I had to write one.

Lauren: Yeah?

Matt: And so then I went back to a lot of my favorite books, nonfiction and fiction, and started looking at the acknowledgments sections. And I was like, who are they thanking? Like, do I need to do this? Like, how thorough should it be? Like, is anybody gonna be upset if they're not included? And then that's like I said, that I realized, holy cow. Like, there's a lot of people being listed in here that I never would have thought would have been listed. And this could be a great source for somebody who is looking for these types of resources, so.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I always forget about that. But I think that's such a great idea.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Now again, this this should be done with books that you really enjoy that you think are well done. You don't want to go in the acknowledgments and and find out who the editor was for a book that was just marginal, like.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: You know. It's not solely that editors fault, but, you know, again, find find a bunch of comp titles, or books that you really like, or comp titles in your category that sold really well. Might not have been a book you read or that you liked. But again, comp titles is that it's just that it's in your category, it's in your genre. If it did really well again, go see who's thanked in there, go see who the editor was, who the cover designer was. Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah, absolutely a great, great kind of untapped resource.

Matt: I agree.

Lauren: Yeah. But you can also, you know, as you're narrowing down that list – cause that is something that is manual work, which is fair. A lot of the resources that are like, market based – oh my goodness – marketplace or platform-based probably have some parameters that you can narrow down the search fields. And I would not apply all of them at once, but I would start with your top priorities.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So, you know, if you have like an absolute maximum budget, you cannot go – like, hard limit cannot go over this. That should be the first field you narrow down.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Filter out anyone that's that's going to charge more than that. And then you kind of go through there and narrow it down a little further.

Matt: If so, I will tell you – I'm sorry – in a marketplace situation, what I will tell you about marketplaces is that what I've seen the trend lately, is they'll give a range sometimes in their little profile or their ad. Like, oh, hey, you know, professional, developmental editor, worked on thgsdjhgjsdhg. My price range is between $24 and $3500. That's like... Uh, okay. So it's really hard to narrow down, sometimes, starting with price.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So sometimes what you need to do is get a list of the things you want to ask these freelancers, with price being at the top of the list as one of the hard stops that you might have, or one of the hard lines to draw. But these days it's getting a little more complicated. Because a lot of them, not only are they not putting out like a, a fairly straightforward per word or per page price that they charge. Oftentimes, you know, especially for developmental editing, you're getting just this crazy wild range. And so it's really hard to say, like, you know, well yeah, if the range of $25 to $3000, technically you're in my budget.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Like. So.

Lauren: Right. Yes. And we'll we'll touch on this more in a little bit actually. But yes, there are some details that are going to be variable in there. And this is why we're saying you want a larger pool of candidates.

Matt: To begin with, yes.

Lauren: To begin with, because some of them might, on the surface, seem like a good fit. And then when you find out more information, you realize that they're not going to be the right fit for you. Not necessarily because they're a bad fit, but just maybe, maybe they're not going to fit your budget needs. Or maybe they're a perfect fit, but you have a hard deadline that you absolutely need the book done by this date, and they are currently unable to get this done –

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: – in that time. So you want to start with a longer list, and then you're going to want to narrow that down a little.

[42:32] – Narrowing Down to Your Top Candidates

Lauren: So in order to narrow it down, you're going to want to like I just said, review some of their details, some of their specifications. Are they going to be able to do it within the timeline that you need it? Are they going to be able to do it within the budget that you need it? Are they going to be able to do what you're actually asking them to do? Like if it's, you know, if if you're looking for a graphic designer and you forgot to specify that you need a cover designer for a book, is this something that they can do? Or are they exclusively like digital graphic designer?

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: These are –

Matt: Or just any type of designer –

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: – that doesn't specialize in book covers, yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: You know?

Lauren: So.

Matt: They might be an amazing designer when it comes to designing... like, I don't know, like band posters for concerts that are at like 50,000 seat stadiums and you just love their work, but they've never done a book cover before.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: I'm not saying don't use them, but what we are saying is put them at the bottom of the list. Designing a book cover is not, it's not easy. It's not straightforward. And if they've never done it before... then again, there's a lot of little nuances, and things that need to be taken into account to design a cover that's going to really sell a book.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: And let's be real, covers sell books.

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So once you've kind of narrowed that, that down a little more, you’ve filtered down that list, now – now you can actually go through and really vet these options that you have left. And this is where it's going to take a little bit of effort, a little bit of research. But it's worth it. This is, this is an investment, again. But you're going to want to go review any, like, referenced published works that they've talked about. If they said, oh, here's a list of other book covers that I've done, go take a look at them. Go check. Don't take their word for it. Go take a look at those books. Do the covers look good? Do they look like something that you would want your book to look like? Cover designers, even an experienced cover designer, they have a style. They have like, this is what we do. If you're somebody who's really, really anti people on the cover, and the cover designer that you're talking to has only ever done books with people on the cover... why, why, why are you talking to them?

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: You know? That's – even if they say they can do it without people on the cover. There are other designers out there.

Matt: That's right.

Lauren: So, you know, go take a look at that. Review any testimonials and reviews that they've provided. But also take it a step further and go search them on social media. Don't search for their profiles on social media. Search for other people talking about them. Has anyone talked because in the in this industry, people that love their freelancers will talk about them. Matt has talked about who his editor was for his book.

Matt: Shout out Kate.

Lauren: And will shout her out whenever he has the opportunity to do so, because that was a good working relationship. If you go find somebody that you think is a good, is a good fit for you and you search them on social and you see twenty posts of people singing their praises, that are like unpaid, I'm just excited to talk about how great my editor was on my book... Great.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Sign with that person immediately. Let's go. Let's get it under contract.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So you're definitely going to want to do that. And if they came referred to you, ask that, ask that person questions. If the – if somebody reached out to you and was like, hey, I heard you were looking for an editor, here's mine. She was great. Really loved her. Great. Awesome. Cool. Now that you've confirmed she's a good fit for you, go back to that person that originally referred them and asked the specific details. Did they deliver what was expected? Did they deliver it on time? Did they get it right the first time, or was it something that you had to go back and forth constantly and be like, I need this, I need this, I need this? What was their communication style in general? Did they only text you or do you have an email chain back and forth? Like, how does this work? Like –

Matt: Did you have to wait five days in between each response?

Lauren: Yeah. Yes. And you know, maybe the most important question of all, would you work with them again?

Matt: Yeah. I mean, the assumption is that they would if they're referring them to you. But these are all great questions.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I agree. And some of which, you know, again, can be found in other places, but. If you're, if you're lucky enough to get some word of mouth referrals, some from people who are very trusted and they seem very excited about this, this particular person, that's, that's the best. But these are still questions you should ask.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: You know, assuming that everything was great is probably not the best thing to do.

Lauren: Even just to know in advance. Like the question about how much back and forth did you have?

Matt: Yes.

Lauren: That's something I think a lot of people don't realize this, if they don't have experience with this. A lot of freelancers will have built into their package, like, you only get X number of revisions.

Matt: Revisions, yeah.

Lauren: So like for a cover designer, you might have a cover designer that says you only get three revisions max. And whatever the third draft is, is the final, whether you like it or not.

Matt: Or extra drafts cost this extra amount of money.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Extra revisions, sorry.

Lauren: Yes. Which is why two of the questions that I would say right off the bat, when you're, when you're talking to a potential freelancer is: what's included in the package, and what additional expenses will I potentially accrue throughout this process?

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So if it is, you get three revisions included in the package and then any additional after that are $150 per revision, that's something you're going to want to know. Especially if you're going to if you have a set budget.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: That's something that you want to know in advance.

Matt: Or if it's an editing situation, you know, if your word count changes up or down based on, you know, editing and other things, like does that affect the price? Right? If the developmental editor suggests a bunch of things that inflate your word count by 1,000 words, 3,000 words, 5,000 words... You know, is there an extra cost now because you went from a 80,000 word job, that was quoted as an 80,000 word job, to a 85,000 word job, or –

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: So you have to be aware of all those things just to – ask the right questions, yeah.

Lauren: Which is – that's another question, and Matt alluded to this earlier, when he was talking about the range that you'll see in, in what it's going to cost to hire somebody. How are you setting your prices? Are you setting it – are you charging by the hour? Are you charging by the word count? Are you charging by page count? Are you charging by total number of revisions that we do? You know, like unlimited number of revisions, but at the end, I'm going to charge you based on how many times we went back and forth and did a pass through of this work? That, that could be a big difference between two rounds of revisions and six rounds of revisions.

Matt: Which, by the way –

Lauren: You know?

Matt: A pro tip: if they charge by the hour, ask them how many pages do they typically do in an hour?

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: And then go back to the EFA organization and look at their sort of ranges for what, you know, an hourly wage would be, and how many pages should be included in that.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: I'm always a little bit leery of hourly.

Lauren: Me too.

Matt: But I don't know that that's fair. But I do know that if somebody charges hourly for editing or design, mostly for editing, they should be able to tell you the average amount of pages that are that are edited in an hour's time. Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. And absolutely you're going to want to ask for details like contracts. Is there a contract in place? Do you have a formal contract? Please sign a formal contract. Just to make sure everything is in line –

Matt: I'm just gonna say right now.

Lauren: Yeah?

Matt: Don't hire anybody without a contract –

Lauren: Thank you.

Matt: – or an agreement. Like.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: A contract is not often used anymore these days. Oftentimes it's an agreement, is – But do not, do not, hire anybody without some sort of an agreement or contract where deliverables are laid out, price is laid out, and timeline is estimated or laid out. Just don't do it.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: I don't care who it is.

Lauren: In writing.

Matt: Yeah, of course. One hundred percent.

Lauren: I'm sorry to say this, but you have to be able to have those receipts where you can go back to somebody and say, hey, here is a timestamped, dated email from you –

Matt: That’s right.

Lauren: – where you promised me you were going to deliver this content, this amount, in full, by this date, and I don't have it. So absolutely, a hundred percent agree with that. And then for, for some of these different things, especially when it comes to graphic design, if you're doing any kind of cover design or even like marketing collateral or something like that, you might want to ask some questions about licensing and ownership and AI usage to make sure that you have the rights to the final product.

Matt: More than AI, stock imagery, but AI –

Lauren: Yes. That was the other one, yes.

Matt: I mean, AI is a whole nother thing, right? Like, you know.

Lauren: Yeah, because we're still figuring that out.

Matt: You may not want them to use AI at all. You may not know if they are or not. But stock imagery is a whole nother thing.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Like, that can get you in a lot of trouble. If they're not clearing those images, or they're not using the appropriate paid versions, or whatever that might be. So.

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Which is also why it's important to have somebody that has experience. That's the difference between a specialist and a generalist.

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: Somebody that specializes in designing book covers already knows these things.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And they’re – hopefully, if they're a good designer and a good person – they are not going to provide you with content that you can't use.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So that's where that kind of stuff matters.

Matt: Yeah.

[52:16] – Miscellaneous Tips and Reminders

Lauren: Just real quick, because I think we've, we've touched on some of these already, but red flags. For all the questions that you're going to ask, for all the things that you want to pay attention to, there are a lot of different things that it's going to depend on what your end goal is, whether or not this this person is a good fit for you, but there are going to be some red flags right away. Obviously, if their portfolio doesn't match your genre, your expectations, your needs, your style – don't work with that person. That's, that's just realistic. If you want them to be contributing to your brand, you want to make sure it matches your branding.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: But also you want to make sure that they are not going to be overpromising on things that they absolutely could not realistically guarantee in any way. If you're getting somebody who's saying, I guarantee you that you'll hit a bestseller list. Or I guarantee you that I will be able to secure a network TV interview for you and your book – there's no way they can guarantee that. They absolutely cannot.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: So, red flag for sure. Matt already said don't, don't work with somebody who doesn't want to agree to a contract or a written agreement of some kind. If someone is cagey about committing to firm deadlines or deliverables...

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: That's, that's not a good thing.

Matt: Just move on.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: Immediately.

Lauren: Yep. You need those things locked in. If they're vague about their pricing, if they won't, if they won't answer your questions about, you know, how do you set your pricing? Can you give me an estimate for what the final cost of this is going to be?

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: That's – move on. Just keep going. And also I know these things get expensive. But if somebody is coming in at considerably cheaper than the standard market rate... I would, in fact, look that gift horse in the mouth. Like I, I would not –

Matt: Yep.

Lauren: – that's, that's not a good thing.

Matt: No.

Lauren: That's not competitive pricing. That's, that's usually a...

Matt: That’s –

Lauren: Yellow flag at minimum.

Matt: – one hundred percent, your work is getting farmed out to somebody who is just generating AI slop. Period. So, one hundred percent. Do not take something that is considerably cheaper, no matter how tempting it is. Yeah.

Lauren: Yes. Again –

Matt: And no matter often we or anybody else says that, somebody will do it. Somebody will hear that from us and be like, whatever. That's okay. You get what you pay for. So. Some slightly less alarming things, but still yellow flags, potentially. Limited portfolios, limited past experience. It's not always a bad thing. I think you said earlier on, you know, if you're looking at two different cover designers or designers. One’s, you know, a ten plus year veteran designer, does really cool work, but hasn't really done any book covers or any other genres, versus an artist you're looking at who's maybe, you know, a three to five year veteran, fairly new, but has cranked out a bunch of really good looking book covers. I'd probably go with that newer one. So, you know, again, no past experience. Okay, that's one thing. Limited past experience? You really need to take it into context what they've done compared to somebody else. But limited portfolios, again, you need to dig a little deeper into that. It's not necessarily a red flag, but it is a yellow flag. Like slow down a second. Let's take a look and see what they've actually done. Who'd they do it for? You know, how long does it take them to do that? All those other questions that we asked. And then, you know, we talked about this too. Mixed reviews or testimonials. Again, there's such a thing as subjective versus objective. You need to dig into those reviews, if this is somebody you're interested in working in. Were they just upset because the dress was too long and they're short person, or because the taco was $0.25 more than their favorite truck? Or did they have a legitimate complaint that every time they emailed this designer or editor, it took them five days to respond. Every time they responded, they were very vague. The deliverables were late. Like, those are legitimate concerns.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: So. Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. You know, yeah. Yellow flags. They're not hard and fast, immediately cut this person off your list. But fact check.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Gut check. Just take a pause.

Matt: Slow down.

Lauren: And review that a little bit.

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: Yeah. Obviously this is something we could get as in-depth as possible on this and, and never run out of topic, because there's so many different facets and elements to it. But there – as we've said throughout this episode – there are a ton of different resources that are available for different types of freelancers –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: – different types of research. But I still think at the end of the day, the number one most valuable resource that you have available to you is the community that is within your industry. Whether it's your other authors in your genre, or other speakers that are in your business cohort, or people in your mastermind group, or whatever it is, start there. Those are your most invaluable resources and sources of referrals. And hey, maybe, maybe best case scenario, one of them says, hey, I'll do it for you if you do a book swap with me. And, and we'll beta read each other's manuscripts.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: That’s – yeah.

Matt: And don't forget Lauren's pro tip about comp titles. You know, checking the acknowledgments section, checking the copyright pages for who the editor and the designer were. Those are always great sources too.

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Just remember none of this is a one size fits all solution.

Lauren: Yep.

Matt: So if you use these sort of markers to, to guide yourself along the way, I think you'll end up with, with some people that you're happy with. And... Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. Build your team. At the end of the day, this is a part of your branding. This is a part of your... building your business, your team of people.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Find the right fit for you. Find the right person to fill this job role. And you might find a really, really incredible long term partner.

Matt: Yeah, if you're lucky.

Lauren: If you're lucky.

[58:30] – Episode Wrap Up

Lauren: Think we did it?

Matt: Probably.

Lauren: Alright.

Matt: What do your bracelets say?

Lauren: What do they say? Live fast. Park pass. Die fun.

Matt: That's a repeat.

Lauren: That is a repeat.

Matt: But I like it.

Lauren: They're all repeats. All This and Heaven. And... I Can Do It With A Broken Heart.

Matt: Alright.

Lauren: And on that note.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in. Please leave us a comment or review on whatever channel of choice you like to listen to us on. Like and subscribe, if you haven't already. Let us know if you have any questions or comments or concerns. You can always email us at podcast@lulu.com. And tune back in for another new episode next week.

Matt: Yup.

Lauren: Until then, thanks for listening.

Matt: Later.