Matt: Disclaimer warning upfront. This episode will be highly opinionated, which will make for great entertainment, hopefully. Some possible educational content, maybe. We'll see. 

Lauren: Starting off strong. 

[0:43] - Intro

Lauren: Starting off really, really strong with the opinion based…

Matt: I like to take the route of honesty. 

Lauren: Okay, well I – 

Matt: I'd like to think that the five listeners we have would appreciate that. 

Lauren: I think that's fair. I think they appreciate your honesty and your candor. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: I personally am going to take the stance that I think this is going to be a valuable episode. Because I do think that we're talking about a lot of things in here that are publishing related, industry related, marketing related, book related that we are going to kind of share our own insights into not just our opinions, but why we feel some way about it. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: And I do think that there might be some interesting conversations that get sparked from this. 

Matt: We'll take your path. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: Your description. 

Lauren: All right. We'll see how it goes. So here's how it's going to work, basically. If you're not – 

Matt: Yes, please tell us how it's going to work.

Lauren: If you're not watching, if you're just listening, Matt and I have a bowl full of different color Post-it notes. They are color coded. There are four different colors in here. Some of them are debate. So they are two diametrically opposed things, I guess. And whoever picks it gets to choose which one they want to argue in favor of, and the other one has to argue in favor of the other one. So we will actually debate that way. One of them is more soapbox-style. So you just get to share your opinion on how you feel about a certain thing. One of them is would you rather? So we'll give you two or three options about something and share your insight into why you would choose one or the other of those. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: And then the last one is off topic, just to keep us engaged. Because we do love a good tangent. So I figure if we built it – 

Matt: What color is off topic? 

Lauren: The pink ones. 

Matt: I feel like miraculously enough we've not been canceled yet, but this might be the episode that gets us canceled. 

Lauren: Okay. Challenge accepted. Let's see how it goes. 

Matt: Alright. Okay. 

Lauren: You ready to start? 

Matt: Sure.

[2:40] - Debate: Traditional Publishing vs. Self-Publishing

Lauren: Alright, so this one's going to be a debate. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: Ooh, we're gonna start off hot. Self-publishing versus traditional publishing. And I am going to argue for traditional publishing. I could have kept it spicy and chose self-publishing for myself and made you argue in favor of – 

Matt: Go ahead. 

Lauren: – traditional publishing. 

Matt: Doesn’t bother me. 

Lauren: But no, we'll ease our way into this. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: So I am going to argue for why somebody would want to choose the traditional publishing route. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And then give you some time to talk about self-publishing instead. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: Alright. I think that if you were somebody who was interested in having a book published for the clout, more than for the brand building opportunity. If this was something that you were looking forward to because you want to have a book out there because you want to say you were a published author, and you want to feel like you really made it to a certain level, but you don't really want to be the one responsible for doing all the work behind getting that done. Not including writing, obviously you are going to be writing your own book one way or another. But if you are much more interested in…I would like to do the part where I write the book and then I pass it off to an agent and the agent is the one that handles shopping it out to publishers. And then the publishers deal with everything from the formatting, the editing, the design, the sales and marketing, whatever, I'm going to be pretty hands off with this. I want my cash advance upfront and then I don't care about things like continuing revenue or having my customer data and building my like brand on for my customer data or whatever, I just want – I want somebody else to professionally edit design market sell distribute my book, and I want to hope that maybe I will end up on the New York Times bestseller list and can be a prestigious published author. Then traditional publishing is for you.

Matt: You kind of also made the argument for self-publishing there

Lauren: Did I? 

Matt: Yes. Tongue in cheek. I mean, there were some references there to…I don't care about keeping my customer data or recurring revenue. 

Lauren: I think you've brainwashed me. 

Matt: Wow. Good. It’s nice to see that it works. Now I can move on to other subjects to brainwash you with. 

Lauren: Great. 

Matt: Well, so, yeah, okay. I don't know if that was a great argument for traditional publishing, but I'll give you one for self-publishing. 

Lauren: Go ahead. 

Matt: That's the opposite of everything she just said. I think in all fairness, traditional publishing has its place for certain types of people these days. Certainly not as wide of a swath of people as it used to, but self-publishing on the other hand, I think you know, when combined with something like print on demand as the backend for the printing–especially if you're a brand or a business or building a business off of books–is the obvious and smart choice for a lot of those reasons that you just said. Now yes, there are some, what I would consider extras that come along with it in terms of responsibilities, right? If you're self-publishing, you're the contractor and you're dealing with the subcontractors. So you are responsible for writing it, getting it edited, cover design, formatting, picking your distribution options, your sales channels, hopefully building a Shopify store or something, so you can sell direct from your website and all of those other things. But with those responsibilities comes control, right? And so I think self-publishing is the best option for somebody who needs all of that control and wants all of that control. Somebody who does not want to cede control to another entity of their design aesthetic, their content, their title. If you want to be in control of all of your content, and you have specific goals for that book or these books by way of building a brand, a business, generating revenue, self-publishing is the way to do that. Because you'll have total control for everything. 

Lauren: You know how else you've brainwashed me, and I just realized this as you were saying that? I made my argument from a nonfiction author standpoint. I didn't even default to a fiction – wow, you've really, you got in my head. 

Matt: You blew it. Alright. Next one. 

Lauren: Alright, well.  

[6:37] - Debate: Selling Direct vs. Selling Through Third-Party Retailers

Matt: Selling direct versus selling through third party retailers. I will be nice and take the selling through the third party retailers stance. 

Lauren: Wow. 

Matt: I will allow you the selling direct stance. 

Lauren: Wow. 

Matt: So the benefits of selling through a third party retailer are why, similar to traditional publishing when you put your titles into third party distribution or you sell with a third party retailer, you do get to take some of the responsibilities off of your plate. You're relying on them to draw traffic to their website, to their storefront, to their physical brick and mortar location, if you're lucky enough to have it in there. And it's less work for you, theoretically, less marketing dollars spent for you, theoretically. And quite frankly, if it's a reputable third party retailer, they've already got a pretty good amount of discoverability and SEO built up, and ways to funnel more traffic and dollars to your book. So I think in the broad spectrum of sales channels, third party retail has its place as long as you carefully evaluate the benefits of each of the channels and what your goals are. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: Your turn. 

Lauren: Alright. 

Matt: Direct sales. 

Lauren: Selling direct. I think that one of the biggest benefits of selling direct is that you have access to all of your customer data. You are building your own customer database. You are…have the opportunity to remarket to them, whether it's just following up with them with sales and shipping emails, so…what's the word I'm looking for with that – transactional emails? You can, you can do that with them, but also you can ask them to opt into your email marketing for your newsletter, whatever the case may be. But I think there's also, much like with the other parts of self-publishing where there is like a control element to it, I think that when you sell direct, you have a lot more flexibility to control the customer experience than you do with a third party retailer. And I think that there are a lot of opportunities there, whether it's trying something creative, trying a new experience. Laurie and I talked about this on the email marketing episode recently. Actually, I think I cut this from the final episode, so it might not have made it to air. But there's one company that I shop from that when you hit their VIP list, you get early access to their store whenever they drop a new product. 

Matt: Might that be the Lost Bros? 

Lauren: It might be the Lost Bros. I get a password emailed to me every time they do a new product drop, and I get a half hour early access to their website. And that's something that you can't do on a third party retail site. Like you don't have that kind of…I'm going to be building – 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: – some kind of loyalty experiences by giving them this cool feature, or whatever that that is. You cannot control that part of the customer experience if you're selling on a third party website, but you can if you're selling direct. And I think that's really neat. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Look at us go. 

[9:25] - Discuss: What is your favorite way to consume content? 

Lauren: This is not a debate. This is just discussion. But the question is, what's your favorite way to consume content? For me, and this is something that I've thought a lot about, because it has changed over time. I used to really, really hate video content, actually. 

Matt: Same. 

Lauren: So my answer to that used to be probably podcast over anything else. But I think over time – I still, I still love podcasts. Podcasts are phenomenal way, whether it's educational or entertainment, I really love that element. But I've gotten more and more into video lately, whether it's TikTok, or whether it's like, having YouTube on in the background. I think it's a better way than I liked to admit in the past to consume casually educational content. If it's something that I have to actually learn, if I am like, I need to teach myself this new skill right now –

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: I'm still looking for blog content. I'm still looking for articles. I'm still looking for something that has the step-by-step written out. But if it's something that I'm like, oh, this is a topic that I don't know a lot about and I want to listen to it in the background while I'm putting together a new bookcase or something. Then short form video, long form video, podcasts. They're really creeping up on my preference these days. 

Matt: My chosen form of media consumption is still reading. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Primarily, obviously, print. So magazines and books. 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: That are in my hands, not on a device. If I find an article online that I really want to read. I'll print it. I'll read it later. 

Lauren: I have seen this. 

Matt: I like to be able to highlight and make notes. But the opposite of you – well, not the opposite of you, necessarily – I still don't like video content, especially long form video content. It drives me crazy. I really don't like it right now. I can tolerate short form if it's something I really, really am interested in. But I have been leaning more and more into podcasts. So if I do want something on in the background, or if I'm commuting to work, which is every day… Yeah, a podcast, you know? But for me, reading is the way that I retain things the best. So I find that regardless of how focused I am on listening to a podcast or watching video content, I don't tend to retain it as well. And then I get aggravated that I have to go back and rewatch or relisten to something. So for me, my chosen medium is still print and reading. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I don't know if that'll ever change though. Like, I'm fifty. It's probably a little late to, you know? I may introduce more of those mediums into my daily or weekly repertoire, but… 

Lauren: I think that's fair. Cause I think that's… I mean, I think how you learn doesn't really change. Even a lot of my answer of like, that's really just speaking to my inability to do a single thing, just do one thing at a time. So, like… 

Matt: Well, you know, it could also have to do with just some people just feel more at ease with background noise? 

Lauren: Oh, always. 

Matt: You know? So. 

Lauren: I mean, even when I'm reading, I have music on when I'm like, when I'm reading a book, I have music on. 

Matt: I can't do that. Yeah, I can't. Like if I'm, I'm trying to read and there's anything else going on around me, I just can't. Whether it's somebody else in the room watching TV or, you know, somebody trying to talk to me or somebody on their phone next to me with the sound up – which should never be the case, by the way.

Lauren: Oh, well yeah. 

Matt: I can't, no. I've got to be singular, locked in. That's it. 

Lauren: See, all of those things that you just described, I can't do that either. It's just, it's just music, whether it's music with lyrics or music without lyrics. Cause I can't have TV on in the background while I'm reading because I will get my attention drawn to whatever it is. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: If it's people talking around me, not to me, if there are people that I know, like I, I spend a lot of my time conditioning myself to listen to the sound of your voice. How am I supposed to tune it out now? Like, I don't know.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: On to the next. 

[13:24] - Discuss: Pick one social media channel to promote your book

Matt: Pick one social media channel to promote your hypothetical book and explain why. Well, I'll go with non-hypothetical book. 

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Like real book. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: So at some point I will promote my book. And the social media channel that I'll probably do it on would be LinkedIn. Because my book is nonfiction. And it's also a specific topic that I don't think lands well on some of the other channels, at least, you know, with a larger audience. So mine would be LinkedIn. Secondarily, because I spend the most time on Instagram personally, it would be followed up by Instagram. 

Lauren: I think that was – I was hoping that you were going to get that one. 

Matt: Oh, I'm sorry. The why, I think I also said, was because of the audience. 

Lauren: Yes. Yeah. Which is why, that's why I was hoping that you were going to get that one, because I think that's a really important point to make…your why for both of those, I think is a really important point to make, that not all books are tailored for all social channels. 

Matt: Yeah, right. 

Lauren: And sometimes even depending on what kind of author, content creator, whatever you are, you might be promoting a different book on different channels within your same brand. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: You know, if you're somebody who wrote a cookbook and then your next book is a memoir, you might be promoting those on two different channels. 

Matt: Or at least you'll have a primary channel that's different. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: I mean, most people have at least two channels. You really shouldn't have any more than that.

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: But you're right. There'll be times where your primary channel might switch up based on either your content and audience that you're trying to hit or, you know, where your comfort levels are. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Like I fully expected you to say, I'm going to talk about my real book, not a hypothetical one. And that your answer was going to be LinkedIn and Instagram. Because that is what makes sense for you. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Knowing you and knowing your book, that's what I expected. For me I think Instagram would be my primary channel for pretty much any book that I can think of for myself. Whether it would be – like, whatever product type I can think, I can like, visualize myself writing, Instagram would be –  

Matt: Well, the one that I think you're closest to being done with – 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: – definitely is Instagram. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: For sure. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: My backup would probably be TikTok because I think a lot of the Instagram content that I would make would be video based. So then I would just, you know – 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – cross promote that. But I spend a lot of time, I spend a lot more time than you do on TikTok. 

Matt: Yeah. Well, that's true. 

Lauren: Maybe a little bit too much time on TikTok. 

[15:36] - Off Topic: Best concert you’ve ever been to? 

Lauren: Alright, we get a fun one. 

Matt: What is pink?

Lauren: Off topic. 

Matt: Oh, okay. 

Lauren: So this one is…best concert you've ever been to. Really sorry to disappoint everybody with this answer, but it is, it is the Eras Tour. It is – I need to be so clear to the people that are listening to this and do not know me. I've been to over 200 concerts in my lifetime. And I have been to some truly, truly phenomenal shows and I have been to some steaming piles of garbage. 

Matt: Why don't you tell everybody how you know exactly how many shows you've been to? 

Lauren: Oh well, first of all, because I have an extensive spreadsheet. 

Matt: And there it is folks. 

Lauren: But also, I mean, I kept every concert ticket stub that I had until they stopped sending them. 

Matt: I was going to say, you don't even get stubs anymore. 

Lauren: When they were phasing them out, you could add like a dollar or two surcharge to your ticket and they would mail them to you. My whole family did that right up until the day they stopped offering them. I have a whole box of probably at least a hundred concert ticket stubs. But yeah, I've, I have an extensive spreadsheet where I've kept track of that for years. But out of all of them, Eras Tour. Sorry, not sorry. Nailed it. What about you? You also go, you've been to a lot of live music events. Is there one that stands out?

Matt: In the last 50 years I've been to a lot, yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I certainly haven't hit the milestones you have necessarily, but I honestly don't know how many I've been to. I don't think it's been 200, but I've been to a lot. Because early on music was big for me too. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: At my age and back when I was young, punk rock and stuff like that was really seminal in my life, like trying to rebel against certain things. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: And those shows were a lot more frequent and prevalent and easier to get into and cheaper. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I think my absolute favorite would probably be The Cure, yeah. And that was – 

Lauren: The one you went to recently? 

Matt: The one I went to last year in Miami. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. Like even at Robert Smith's age and I mean, literally sound like a studio recording. They're so good live. Hair standing up on the back of your neck. Like just insane. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: And for a band that, at least for me, I've listened to since I was a kid. Like, there are very few bands that I've listened to for that long that still sound that good – 

Lauren: Yup. 

– that could do that to you at the age of 50 – 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: – essentially. It's also funny that, I mean, there's a clear, clear generational line between the two of us. 

Lauren: I know. 

Matt: Just based on those answers alone, so.

Lauren: I know.  Fair enough. 

Matt: That's okay. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

[18:01] - Would You Rather: Host a Book Launch or Speak at an Event? 

Matt: Alright. What is green again? 

Lauren: Would you rather. 

Matt: Would you rather host a book signing or launch party or speak at an event? For me, I'm going to say speak at an event. Because it's much more one way and I'm extremely introverted. So for me, it's when I speak at events, it's a lot like just having a conversation with you, or like one person. And I actually enjoy that. And I enjoy speaking at events. I don't know that I would enjoy hosting a book signing or a book launch, because I feel like that's a lot of interacting with a lot of different people. Probably similar to when I work a Lulu booth where it gets uncomfortable for me after a short period of time. And by the end of the day, I'm completely done. 

Lauren: Yep. I agree with you. I've seen the amount of work that goes into the setup and prep of like a launch event. And then also the amount of work that goes into the actual night of. And I also don't like being the center of attention all that much.

Matt: I – Yeah, yeah.

Lauren: I – like, I would rather be one speaker at a larger event than be the star of the show for a night. 

Matt: Yeah. Agreed. Like as a speaker, it doesn't bother me because I feel like I'm hopefully adding value. So I don't, I don't feel like I'm the center of attention when I'm speaking, not in that way. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: But again, yeah, you're right. Like if I'm at a table and it's a book signing or, or launch event, regardless of how many people are there. Like, I'm going to feel kind of weird.

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: The flip side of that is it's such an important part of launching a book. I think, and the people that we've talked to that have made that part of their launch process, you know, their marketing plan, they tend to have really good success with it. It's a great way to establish a relationship with your local bookstores and people locally, but even at events where you're able to, to set up and do a signing or a launch, I think. So in that respect, I don't know if I'll do it for this book, but if I was publishing a book, you know, another book where I felt like it would highly benefit from something like that, I'd probably try to force myself to do it. 

Lauren: Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I’ve seen – 

Matt: Wouldn't be my first choice though. 

Lauren: I've seen people have incredible success with them. I'm not saying that it's a bad idea at all. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: I'm just saying that for me –

Matt: Agreed. 

Lauren: I don't know. I don't know if I can do it. 

[20:14] - Discuss: Editing Practices

Lauren: I'm actually glad I got this one because I left it vague enough that I think you would have had a lot of questions. 

Matt: What is orange?

Lauren: Soapbox. 

Matt: Oh, okay. 

Lauren: Conversation. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: So you can feel free to weigh in on this if you want to, but I'm going to talk a little bit about editing. We've talked about this on air a little bit, where I actually really like editing. I think at this point in my life, I like editing more than I like writing. But I do have kind of a very specific editing process. 

Matt: Quick question. 

Lauren: Yes? 

Matt: When you say you enjoy editing, especially that much, are you speaking primarily of your own stuff, or do you also find the same enjoyment in editing other people's things?

Lauren: Oh, that's a great question. 

Matt: Because what you just said made me believe you're talking solely about your own work. 

Lauren: No, no, I enjoy – 

Matt: Not that there's any wrong with that, I was just curious. 

Lauren: No, that's actually a good question. And the answer is that I do enjoy editing in general. I enjoy editing other people's work…with the caveat of specific people. I actually find it very uncomfortable. I have had like, a lot of friends reach out to me and be like, hey, you're a person that I know that is a writer, has a degree in writing, is an editor, whatever, this is your career, your industry. Can you read this thing for me? And because we don't do the work to establish ahead of time, like what they're looking for, like, do you just want like a, yay, this is good – 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – or no, this is bad. Or do you want like, detailed line edits, or –

Matt: Do they just want some beta reader feedback – 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: – or do they want a full on edit? 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Which like, I have made the mistake in the past of like, being too harsh with somebody that wasn't looking for that kind of feedback. So I do really enjoy editing work for somebody that I have…we have that kind of relationship already, where I know what they're open to in terms of feedback. 

Matt: You just brought up a good point though.

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Don't lose your train of thought. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: But I think it's important for people to understand. Cause I, I had to learn this too recently where, when you ask somebody to be a beta reader or if they'd be willing to be an advanced reader versus, hey, do you mind, you know, I know you have editing skills or maybe they're an editor and you're, you're doing some barter work, you're going to trade out some editing for whatever. Like, being very clear about what kind of feedback you're looking for and how you would like that delivered. I think is extremely important. I don't think a lot of people do that. And we've, we've actually heard horror stories before of people who've had friendships that have deteriorated because of, you know – 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: – a bad either beta reader or editing experience. So it's, it's really, I think, critical to point out, like that should all be set up on the front end very explicitly, like set your friendship aside for a minute and say, okay, this is how I need the feedback. This is how I'd like it structured. You know, this is what I'm looking for. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Or I'm just looking for a light read through. Did it flow together okay? Did you understand the general concepts? If it's nonfiction, you know, if it's fiction, did you find yourself wanting to go to the next chapter each time or… Versus, hey, I'd love for you to do a full on in-depth developmental style read through and give me all of the critical points and, you know, mark it up with your red pen as much as you want. 

Lauren: Yeah, because I think that there are very important distinctions between those and I'm always going to want to be the person that helps you make your writing better if that's what you're asking me to do. Like I would, I would very happily give somebody like a very, very detailed in depth, critical feedback if that's what it takes. But if that's not what you're looking for from me, if you're just looking for validation or if you were just looking for like, yeah, this is awesome I really like it or whatever…like, oops, my bad. 

Matt: No I think that's what I'm saying – 

Lauren: Yeah, yes, yeah. 

Matt: – is that – 

Lauren: Yeah. Establish it ahead of time. 

Matt: That's not going to help anybody though either it's just, you know. But again, like for me, I've got one or two people that I asked to be beta readers, but I know it's because they're very well versed in the subject matter of print on demand. They're not book editors. I'm not looking at them for any type of actual copy editing. I'm just asking them to read through it. a quick read. Did I hit all the concepts correctly? Was I off on anything? Keep me honest on some of these things. Was it too high level or not high level enough? Because again, they're subject matter experts. And then there are others where it's like, you know, I might hand it over and say hey, I need you to tear this thing apart – 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: – grammatically, style-wise, tone, just tear it apart. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Please. 

Lauren: I think even like your point about, you know, knowing how to approach it. Even when it comes to stuff for work, if I'm copy editing a blog post that Paul wrote versus like, if somebody else from another team was like, hey, can I get eyes on this? Like, if it's somebody that I don't really review their content all that often, my comments will probably be like, hey, here's an alternate suggestion for how to phrase this or like, hey, this sentence kind of stuck out to me in an odd way, like maybe let's move it over here or something like that. I'll go through Paul's document and I'm just like, track changes, suggestions, edit, whatever, because I'm not worried about hurting his feelings. Because I know where… I know the working relationship that we have about how we can suggest things to each other. And if he doesn't agree with my suggestion, he'll reject it and move on with his day. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So I think that is an important thing when it comes to editing other people's work. But I also really do enjoy editing my own work. I can talk about editing forever. 

Matt: I know, that's why I'm grabbing another one out here.

[25:27] - Would You Rather: Attend In Person or Virtual Event? 

Matt: What is blue again? 

Lauren: Debate. 

Matt: Didn't I say we each get a pass? We can pick again. 

Lauren: We can. 

Matt: Okay, I'm going to pick again. I'm not even going to tell you what this is. 

Lauren: Well, are you going to put it back in? No, you're not. 

Matt: No, I'm not. Because I don't want to talk about the topic at all. Oh, let's see. So easy. What is green? 

Lauren: Would you rather? 

Matt: Okay, would I rather attend an in-person event or a virtual event? I would rather attend an in-person event. Which I know sounds counterintuitive to what I said earlier about being very introverted. But again, I just think that when you're at an event, ultimately your goal is one of two things. Sometimes both. It's either networking or learning. And again, sometimes both should be both. But for some reason for me, it's, I said my chosen medium for consuming is reading, but the way that I learned the best is literally in person. 

Lauren: Me too. 

Matt: Which I know sounds weird because I'm not a fan of video. But if I'm in a room with somebody who's trying to convey a concept or talk about structure of something or how to do something in general, I don't know. just find it way easier to learn hands-on in person. And then from a networking standpoint, while introverted, I do find that in conference settings and event settings, especially if it's one-on-one, it's less daunting for me to meet new people. So in person all day long. Virtual, I can't even pay attention. It's like watching a long ass video. Like I just, I can't do it. Hats off to anybody that does virtual events or things like that. I don't think there's anything wrong with them. I just personally, they're not for me. 

Lauren: Same. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Nope. No notes.

[27:08] - Off Topic: 12 Hours in Any Disney Park

Lauren: Ooh, off topic. You're going to like this one. 

Matt: Am I? 

Lauren: You are. 

Matt: That means I'm not going to, for all those who are still listening.

Lauren: No I don't think so. You have twelve hours at any one US Disney park. Which one are you going to and what are you doing there?

Matt: Oh, you're thinking? 

Lauren: I'm thinking. 

Matt: I can tell you right now which one it is. 

Lauren: Go ahead. 

Matt: You're going to be surprised by this, or maybe you won't. But if I have twelve hours in only one Disney US park… I got to be honest, it's probably going to be Magic Kingdom in Orlando. When I think about rides and things that I could do multiple times over in a day, which I have, and that I would find the most enjoyment… You and I can, we can do all three parks in a day. 

Lauren: Yes. Yeah. 

Matt: Maybe twice over. We know exactly what rides we want to get on, experiences we're going to see, foods we want to eat, we know how to work lightning lane passes. Like it's, it's, you know. But if I'm going to spend twelve hours in one park, it's probably Magic Kingdom. 

Lauren: That's fair. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. I, uh, there was a split second there where I almost said Disneyland and that's a personal crisis that I'm going to have to reconcile at some point in time.

Matt: Well, California Adventure would be probably second on my list. 

Lauren: That was also, so I think actually my top three, I think number two and three are California Adventure and Disneyland in that order.

Matt: Wow. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: You're a convert. Look at you. 

Lauren: I think it's, well, I think… 

Matt: Number one's going to be Epcot, isn’t it?  

Lauren: Number one is, yeah. The answer is Epcot. The answer is I could spend, I could spend twenty-four hours in Epcot. I could spend twelve hours and then another twelve and then another twelve after that. Like I, I could be an Epcot for a week straight and not get bored.

Matt: That'd be number three for me. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I love Epcot, but I think that I would get bored after about five or six hours. 

Lauren: Oh, I think that I think that Epcot is a really I think Epcot has a lot of good opportunity for you to slow down in a way that some of the other parks don't. Like, there's a lot of good places that you can just kind of post up and people watch, or you can just kind of sit and and watch what's going on. 

Matt: That's fair. 

Lauren: There's a lot of good eating in Epcot so I could eat breakfast, lunch, and dinner and Epcot and have a good time and I wouldn't get bored, because I could ride Cosmic Rewind until I pass out. 

Matt: Hmm. Actually, you know what? I'm switching Epcot to number one, Magic Kingdom's number two. 

Lauren: Alright. 

Matt: And then I would go with California Adventure as number three. 

Lauren: Yeah. California Adventure, I think I would just bounce back and forth all day between Avengers campus and Pixar Pier and be really happy. 

Matt: See, I'm not a big Avengers Campus person.  

Lauren: I didn't expect you to be. But I love Mission Breakout. which was shocking, a shocking betrayal for myself personally, because I was so outraged when they changed Tower of Terror. And then when I finally rode it, I was like…shit, this is really good. 

Matt: Yeah. Well, I like Pixar Pier for sure. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: And then Cars Land. 

Lauren: Cars Land too. You're right. Radiator Springs Racers is incredible. 

Matt: I love Cars Land. 

Lauren: And the whole design there is really fantastic. They did some really, really great world building. 

Matt: All those rides, even the ones that are made for smaller kids, the little Luigi's one where you're – 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Those are cool. 

Lauren: I've never been on any of those. 

Matt: Oh, they’re fun. 

Lauren: Maybe that's why like – 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: That, is not like, that's the argument for slowing down and spending instead of trying to cram – 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – an eighteen hour day where I'm doing both parks and I'm bouncing back and forth or whatever, like….spending a slow single day there. Like you ride all the rides you wouldn't necessarily normally go on –

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – if you were just doing your greatest hits day. 

Matt: That’s fair. 

Lauren: Yeah. Alright. Wow. Weird. 

Matt: Alright, let's see.

[30:41] - Would You Rather: Write in Silence or Curate a Vibe? 

Matt: I don't even know what this means. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: I'm not sure how to answer this. 

Lauren: This is a would you rather one. 

Matt: It is. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: It says, would you rather write in silence or curate a vibe? I don't even know what curate a vibe means or how to do that. 

Lauren: Like, are you, are you playing music? Are you going to a coffee shop? Like, do you need total silence? We were just talking about like, reading. 

Matt: So why wouldn't you just say, write with distractions? 

Lauren: Cause – well – 

Matt: What is curate a vibe? 

Lauren: Curate a vibe, like I can't – like, if I'm writing a horror book I'm not gonna be listening to Taylor Swift while writing a horror book. I'm gonna be listening to like –

Matt: Why not? 

Lauren: Well, it's a horror story for you, maybe. But like you want music that's gonna match the vibe of what you're writing, no?

But what if you're writing one of those new style horrors where it's very bubbly and bright and bloody at the same time? 

Well, you could do that for sure. But even then you'd probably, I'd probably choose Chappell Roan or Sabrina Carpenter over Taylor Swift. 

Matt: I don’t know those… So the question is write in silence or write with distractions? 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: Unlike reading where I can't have anything going on writing, I almost do need something in the background. Because if it's dead silent and I'm just stuck with just my own thoughts on what I'm writing, I tend to second guess every single thing I write. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Everything, because it's so silent and that's all that's in front of me. If there's music going or something like, I'll just write and write and write, because I'm kind of half paying attention when I'm writing and sort of also half listening to what I'm listening to. And then at least I'll get stuff down on the page and I can come back through later and edit it or have the editor look at it, but… Yeah. 

Lauren: Anything other than music? 

Matt: No, no. Anything other than music and I get too distracted. You know, TV's on or, or, you know, other people are in the room. Like, I'm not good at being productive in a coffee shop. Like, I'm not that person. 

Lauren: What about even like, I mean setting the whole scene? Like this is, I'm lighting my really good smelling candle and I got my drink and I got my snack and I – the door is closed and the kids aren't home and the dogs are locked out and everything is like, just so. 

Matt: I don't go through, no.  

Lauren: No? 

Matt: No, not at all. I mean, again, oftentimes when I'm writing, you know. Even the book that I just finished, it's usually when I'm traveling, cause there's the least amount of distractions and I'm usually in my hotel room after an event or something like that. And yeah, I'll just put on my headphones, some music or you know, whatever. And I'll just write. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: There's no curating, you know, there's always coffee involved. Yes. 

Lauren: There you go. 

Matt: But outside of that, nothing specific. Like I don't have a, I don't have a routine or a process or I don't curate a vibe, if that's what – 

Lauren: That is – 

Matt: – that means. 

Lauren: That’s what I meant.

Matt: Okay. Got it. No, I don't. I'm not even sure that I know how to. It seems like a lot of work to me. But I could see where a lot of people need that –

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: – to generate the creativity or to, you know, to feel inspired. 

Lauren: I think it might be more of a fiction writing thing than a nonfiction thing. 

Matt: Probably. 

Lauren: I think so. 

Matt: I think nonfiction, you're just trying to get it out. You're just trying to get it out of you and onto the screen or the page or whatever you're doing.

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I think with fiction, you're trying to be creative. You're trying to set a mood – 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: – to create a vibe with your writing. So it's probably important that you have it – 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: – in real life. IRL. 

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah I – Yes. Great. But my, my lingo is weird, but yours isn’t. Okay. 

[34:11] - Debate: Using Free Content or Discounts to Entice New Email Subscribers

Lauren: So this is a debate, and it's specifically if you're, if you're attempting to entice new email subscribers to sign up for your email, would you offer them free sample content or discount slash promo, whatever? And I'm going to make the argument for discounts or promos. Because if I'm trying to entice a new email subscriber, it is – there's a non zero chance that they are somebody who is not familiar with my content or has not read one of my books and might not be motivated by getting a free sample of my content. Because they don't know how good it is or they don't know like, how useful it's going to be or whatever. But a promo code, you know, sign up for my newsletter and get free shipping on your order, is going to be a lot more inspiring for those particular subscribers. And then I can continue to send them like, new and exciting content after I've gotten them on my, on my email list. 

Matt: I actually truly believe in the opposite of that. So this one's easy to debate. 

Lauren: Mmkay. 

Matt: I think if you're trying to get people on your email list and to buy your content, I think the best way is to give them a sample of your content. Not a discount or a coupon or a promo code. Because in my opinion, I don't care what it's discounted to, even if it's a 99 cents ebook, if I don't know that I like it, I'm probably not going to waste my time and money on it. So getting a little sample, whether it's a couple of paragraphs, a chapter, a summary… In a summary, I can also still tell if I like your writing style and things like that. So I genuinely believe the opposite of that. I do think that content samples are just as valuable, if not more valuable, at netting new readers and buyers than some sort of a discount or a promo. I don't know that there's any real correct answer that's blanket for everybody. I think everybody's different, but in my opinion, I think sample content. 

Lauren: So I will say, actually I didn't know which way you were going to land on that. So that's, that's interesting. But now that we're past the premise of debating it, I also agree, free sample over discount. 

Matt: Gotcha. 

Lauren: So. 

Matt: You just took the harder job.

Lauren: I took the–yeah. Because I do think actually that enticing people with a promo code might get you more subscribers, but they might be less qualified subscribers. And I would rather have people that are actually interested in my content and actually want to be on my mailing list, than somebody who's going to do it just to get the free discount code and then delete all of my emails, or have them like, filtered straight into their spam folder and become – 

Matt: I think no matter what you write, whether it's fiction or nonfiction or how to manuals for lawnmowers, your goal shouldn't be transactions. It should be relationships, right? So yeah, you might get that quick transaction, whether that transaction is a signup or a $2 ebook sale. But again, if it's not the right target audience, if it's not good content, that's it. And not only is that it, you've burned them forever. They'll never try you again. There's so many others out there. Why would they? So I would always approach it from a relationship building standpoint first. And again, sample of your work is going to do that. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

[37:37] - Off Topic: Last Meal

Matt: Do we have time for one more or do you want to wrap it up? 

Lauren: I think we got time. I went first or did you go first? Who went first? 

Matt: I don't remember. 

Lauren: Well then we should both do one more just to be safe. So you go. 

Matt: I'm going to end on a off-topic, maybe it'll be fun. 

Lauren: We're gonna end on an off-topic no matter what, but go ahead. 

Matt: Oh, it's kind of dark, but I like the question. 

Lauren: I know which one it is, go ahead. 

Matt: What's your last meal? 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: So your death row last meal like, you know again, little dark, okay. What is my last meal? Man. I guess you're allowed to have anything you want. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Right? That's still tough, but I do think that my last meal is gonna have to be a really good slice of pizza. A really good smash burger. So hard. And I think I'm going to have to go with, as a side, my mom's broccoli salad. 

Lauren: I like it. Mine would be – ours, they're so similar and yet so different. Mine would be a really, really juicy cheeseburger with like, all the fixins. But like my, my preferred fixins, which are not standard necessarily.

Matt: Wait a second. Do they say fixings in –

Lauren: No. 

Matt: – upstate New York? 

Lauren: Absolutely not. They do not. I don't know where that came from. 

Matt: That was. 

Lauren: Actually. You what that was? That was Jeff Probst. Jeff Probst’s voice just came out of my mouth. 

Matt: A hundred percent. 

Lauren: That's what that was. 

Matt: That's exactly it. 

Lauren: Yup.

Matt: When he’s trying to entice people to, yep. 

Lauren: Yep, yeah. That's exactly what that was. 

Matt: Go ahead. 

Lauren: Hey, that starts this week. 

Matt: Well I hope it's been better than the last two seasons, cause…

Lauren: We’ll see. We'll see how this goes. But yeah, it would be a really, really good cheeseburger, cooked rare, with a fried egg and avocado on it, a side of really salty fries, like really, really good fries. 

Matt: You're gonna die just from your meal. 

Lauren: Yeah, that's the point. And a side of sour cream to dip the fries in. And a really crispy, freshly pulled draft IPA. And my mom's macaroni salad. 

[39:38] - Would You Rather: Write in the Morning or Write at Night? 

Lauren: All right, I'm doing one more because I didn't do any would you rather? So we're going to see if this one's any good. Would you rather write in the morning or write at night? That's an easy one. The answer is write at night. I do everything I possibly can at night instead of in the morning, because I want to sleep as late as humanly possible without being late for whatever it is I have to do to start my day. So. 

Matt: Sounds good. 

Lauren: Easy peasy. I also feel like night it's a lot easier to like, just kind of relax and get into the flow of writing. 

Matt: Makes sense. 

Lauren: You a nighttime or morning writer? 

Matt: I'm whenever I can, so. 

Lauren: Fair enough.

Matt: But again, because it's often when I'm traveling, it usually means it's at night. Because morning and during the day I'm usually at a conference or something like that, so. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: Yeah. 

[40:23] - Rapid Fire Wrap-Up

Lauren: This is our wrap up. This is a rapid fire either or. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: And you are just, no explanation, no, just you tell me which one of the two. 

Matt: Alright. 

Lauren: Okay. Paperback or hardcover? 

Matt: Paperback. 

Lauren: White paper or cream paper? 

Matt: Cream.

Lauren: Owning physical media or streaming it? 

Matt: Physical 

Lauren: Speed reading or savoring a book? 

Matt: Speed reading. 

Lauren: Music festival or concert? 

Matt: Concert. 

Lauren: Book or movie slash show? 

Matt: Book. 

Lauren: Movie or TV show? 

Matt: TV show. 

Lauren: Pizza or tacos? 

Matt: Pizza. 

Lauren: Flying or driving? 

Matt: Flying. 

Lauren: Converse or Vans? 

Matt: Vans. 

Lauren: Phone or laptop? 

Matt: Laptop. 

Lauren: Disneyland or Disney World? 

Matt: Disney World. 

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: You want me to ask them to you? 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: Do you not have these memorized already? 

Lauren: No, I don't. 

Matt: Alright. White paper versus cream paper?

Lauren: Cream. 

Matt: Physical media versus streaming? 

Lauren: Physical. 

Matt: Music festival versus concert? 

Lauren: Concert. 

Matt: Speed reading versus savoring? 

Lauren: Speed reading. 

Matt: Paperback versus hardcover? 

Lauren: Paperback. 

Matt: Disneyland versus Disney World? 

Lauren: Apparently my new answer is Disneyland. Damn. 

Matt: Phone versus laptop? 

Lauren: Laptop.

Matt: Flying versus driving? 

Lauren: Driving. 

Matt: Converse versus Vans? 

Lauren: Converse. 

Matt: Pizza versus taco? 

Lauren: Pizza. 

Matt: Movie versus TV show? 

Lauren: Movie. 

Matt: Book versus movie? 

Lauren: Book. 

Matt: Not bad. 

Lauren: Alright, we did it. 

Matt: I didn't realize how many of those we had in common. 

Lauren: I didn't either. Interesting. 

Matt: Hard to believe after your last meal one. I just, I feel like I completely don't know you anymore.

Lauren: What part of that is unsurprising–

Matt: Or want to know you. 

Lauren: Wait, what part of that was weird to you?

Matt: The idea of a rare cheeseburger with a fried egg on it – 

Lauren: Yeah? 

Matt: – and avocado absolutely sounds like… I don't even want to describe it on air. Like we will get canceled. That is just egregious. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: That's the only word that I can, I can spit out right now. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: That's safe for…safe for this audience that my mom might be in. 

Lauren: There's gotta be at least one person listening that would eat that cheeseburger with me. So. 

Matt: And you're such a nerd, a crisp IPA. 

Lauren: Hey, it's my last meal. I want it to be something – 

Matt: Ew. 

Lauren: I actually know exactly what IPA it would be too. 

Matt: I'd take a crispy Coke that would make you cry. Like your eyes water.

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: Alright.I mean, your last meal sounds like it came straight out of Brooklyn. Dumbo. Like, some hipster nerdy burger with a fried egg on it and an IPA. Like that is the definition of every nerd walking around Dumbo right now. 

Lauren: It actually came from a diner in New Jersey. 

Matt: Close enough. 

Lauren: But… Sure. 

Matt: But I guess last meals are last meals, right? 

Lauren: That's what matters. 

Matt: Okey doke. 

Lauren: That's what matters. Alright. 

Matt: Well, thanks for listening, if you're still there.

Lauren: Yeah. If you have any, any opinions on any of our opinions, please let us know. Like, subscribe, leave us a review, leave a comment on social media, on our YouTube channel. You can email us at podcast@lulu.com. Argue with Matt about anything that he said. I don't know. 

Matt: Fried eggs on burgers. 

Lauren: It's a thing. 

Matt: It's not, it should not be. 

Lauren: Okay. Well. 

Matt: Yep. 

Lauren: Anyone – once again, Team Lauren versus Team Matt, you know where to find us. And in the meantime, you can find us right back here next week with another new episode. So –

Matt: Maybe. 

Lauren: Maybe. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week. 

Matt: Later.

Matt: That legit has to be the most disgusting…