Matt: What episode number is this? 

Lauren: 71. 

Matt: 71? Holy shit, really? 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Wow, okay.

[Intro]

Matt: All right. Welcome back, to those of you that are coming back. Thank you, I should say, for coming back to another episode. This would be episode 71. 

Lauren: Yes, it would. 

Matt: And if we have any new listeners, fingers crossed. Thanks for stopping by. I hope you stick around. 

Lauren: Depends on how much of that intro I leave in this episode. They might have already left. 

Matt: We'll try not to scare you too much. For the rest of you, you kind of know how this goes. 

Lauren: That’s true. 

Matt: Episode number 71, here we are. Today we are talking about foreign rights management, international rights, for indie authors specifically. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: This is something that traditionally published authors and creators–nonfiction or fiction, doesn't matter–they typically don't have to worry about this. A, because it's handled by the traditional publishing houses and B, sometimes they don't even get a cut of it. For all you indie authors though, who would like to understand more about how to get your work sold through the foreign rights market versus just selling it yourself internationally, this episode is for you. We're gonna talk about some really cool stuff in here, a cool platform that we've come across that we really, really like. So we've decided to spotlight that as well, because we think – Well, I should just say that very rarely do we come across something, maybe a couple times a year if that, that we feel like is kind of a game changer for indie authors and creators. And I mean something that's not like, AI-generated, right? 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Like, every day I think there's something like two thousand new AI companies that are started that all are gonna make your life easier as a creator as a solopreneur or whatever, but. It's rare that, you know, more than a couple times a year we come across a tool or a platform or a service where we're like oh man this is awesome, this is a game changer. So today we're gonna talk about one of those that we've come into contact with and we really like what we see and we think it's gonna be really helpful for a lot of you, so.

Lauren: Absolutely and also just really helpful. It's a really helpful tool, and also a really helpful resource for understanding –

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – things that we're gonna be talking about in this episode. So make sure you check out the show notes for some links. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Cause we wouldn't even be doing this episode without some of the resources. Should we just say their name? Are we like – 

Matt: Well I was going to, but I took a pause because I felt like I was talking too much, and then I lost my opening. But yeah, we're talking about DropCap. 

Lauren: Okay 

Matt: DropCap has created a foreign rights marketplace specifically for, for indie authors to use. And we're really impressed by that platform. The topic itself of foreign rights is something we get asked about fairly regularly too. But unfortunately, you know, until talking to Lindsay and the team at DropCap, we didn't have a lot to offer people other than we could give you an understanding of what it was. But you know, outside of working with a traditional publisher, as an indie creator it's much more complicated, without something like DropCap, to go after foreign rights sales – 

Lauren: It is, yeah. 

Matt: – and securing contracts for foreign rights, translations, things like that. So coming across this, we were like, oh, this is awesome. This is different. Let's talk about this.

Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. And we will talk about, kind of, the different ways that you can go about trying to sell or license your international rights. Not just using DropCap, although we'll definitely talk about that, but what the other options technically are for you too. But before we get into that, I do want to touch a little bit on just why, what it is like we're actually talking about –

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – and why people might have any interest in doing this. 

Matt: Perfect. 

Lauren: Especially – 

Matt: Well, to make money, right? 

Lauren: Yes. I mean, obviously. 

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: Obviously. Especially if you're listening to this and you're like, hold on, hold on, hold on. I thought my book was already available internationally. Like, isn't that kind of the whole point of some of the global distribution options or various different sales and retail channels? Like, aren't all these different companies always saying that you ship worldwide, and my book is available and markets all over the place? And yes, absolutely. If you have set your book up that way, we're not lying about it being available worldwide. 

Matt: Well they're not lying. 

Lauren: Right. Right. But there's a difference between readers in foreign countries being able to buy your book from whatever website you're selling it from and actually targeting and marketing and translating and specifically making your book available in these foreign markets. 

Matt: Right, yep. 

Lauren: Yeah. And that's what we're talking about in this episode. 

Matt: Yeah, 100%. 

Lauren: Yeah. So just to kind of clear that up a little bit. 

Matt: Well, I would just add to that – I'm sorry. 

Lauren: Go ahead. 

Matt: Just to further differentiate, the latter is more proactive and there's more depth to it.

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: And so again, when you're working with a buyer for the foreign rights of your work, that's a much more… it's almost more like a partnership than you just dropping your book into global distribution through Ingram or something like that. And knowing that it's available should somebody want it or seek it out, right? That's the difference. Like, yeah, if you publish something doesn't matter what it is, and you drop it into global distribution with Ingram or whatever, some of these other retail distribution channels, it is available should somebody seek it out or go after it. It may appear on certain sites at the top of the page or something like that, but you're not going to get any real proactive – There's no incentive for the distribution network to push it, to promote it, to feature it, unless you're utilizing a paid function that they have, and most of them don't really have it for that. When we're talking about this foreign rights and proactively working with a buyer overseas in Europe, or if you're in Europe and you want a US buyer, in general that's a much more proactive relationship. They are purchasing the rights to that book. So they are going to make every concerted effort to make sure they sell it. And that's a very different relationship.

Lauren: It is a very different relationship 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And it is also something that is very…you said passive earlier. 

Matt: Right, yeah. 

Lauren: You said passive is just having your book available. 

Matt: That's correct. 

Lauren: Like through global distribution. 

Matt: That’s a good way to say it, yeah. 

Lauren: And yes, that is because there are so many differences that we don't really think about domestically versus internationally…

Matt: Right.

Lauren: In terms of what is trending in different markets. What different readers have interests. And like, get, we'll get into all of this , a little bit later in the episode, but even things like cover style. cover style that is really popular in the US might be very different than the cover style that's really popular –

Matt: Design, yeah.

Lauren: – in Japan. 

Matt: Yeah, that's right. 

Lauren: And a cover that might speak to readers here would not speak to readers in Japan. 

Matt: Right. I think a good way to also paint this picture would be Haunted Mansion here in the United States, Orlando or California, it doesn't matter, versus Haunted Mansion in France. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: Or Haunted Mansion in Japan. 

Lauren: Well, the real, I mean, which one is the one that has Mystic Manor? 

Matt: That is going to be Japan, I believe. 

Lauren: It's Hong Kong. 

Matt: Hong Kong. 

Lauren: It's Hong Kong that has Mystic Manor. And I believe that is because... 

Matt: Cultural differences. Yeah. 

Lauren: Cultural differences because in China, ghosts and like the idea of spirits and the afterlife does not resonate the same way that it does in the US. 

Matt: Right? 

Lauren: So instead of it being a haunted house they did a different ride inspired by – which is also like, so high on my bucket list, I've heard it's really cool. 

Matt: And you just came back from the French one. 

Lauren: I did just come back from the French one. 

Matt: Which is Phantom Manor? Is that what it is? 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: And how much difference was, was in that one? Besides the name? 

Lauren: Oh, it was actually – it was a very different…it was was same, same, but different? Which was actually how a lot of Disneyland Paris was, which was really interesting. Because that one is in Frontierland and they tied it in to the narrative of Big Thunder – 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: – and it being in Frontierland. And they made it a much more narrative – like it's not just this kooky haunted house where all of these different ghosts and spirits and whatever are living, there's actually a very specific narrative story within it. 

Matt: So the foreign rights – 

Lauren: Like – 

Matt: – version of Disney's Haunted Mansion in France is not quite as cool as the American one, but it sounds pretty cool. 

Lauren: It was cool. 

Matt: And then obviously the one that we just talked about in Hong Kong for cultural reasons and differences – 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: – was changed as well. 

Lauren: I’m also – 

[8:43]

Matt: Anyways, we're to focus on international rights specifically, foreign rights contracts and things like that, what they might include. We're going to talk about licensing, you know, permissions. But also keep in mind, this covers the rights for things like audiobooks, TV, film adapt- ugh, film adaptations. Yes. 

Lauren: That's an important thing to clarify when we're talking about selling your, selling your foreign rights or anything like that. First of all, we're not really talking about selling them – 

Matt: Licensing them.

Lauren: That is a very – yes, you are licensing your rights. And we'll talk a little bit more about what that specifically looks like later in the episode. But we're not talking about you giving away your rights or selling your rights, you are licensing them out. And it is the same kind of thing that you can do. You can do this with audiobook licensing. You can do it with TV and film adaptations.  Even something like…if you've ever seen like, the book subscription boxes that do like this is an exclusive Illumicrate edition that has a different cover design and end paper and all that. If it's something that was designed in house by them, they've licensed the rights from the author or the publisher to do that. 

Matt: That’s right. 

Lauren: So that's the kind of thing that we're talking about here. And by licensing your international rights or your foreign rights, that's a very specific part of…

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: – what we're doing.

Matt: That’s right. 

Lauren: And it might include some or all of those things as well, but that's all…

Matt: Up to you. 

Lauren: – part of the contract and that's up to you. 

Matt: Yeah. You'll decide which of those rights you'd like to license – 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: – or options and which ones you wouldn't for sure. It's also important to note that this is weighted…I don't want to say equally for fiction versus nonfiction. According to Lindsay and some other sources, the foreign rights market is currently a little more interested in nonfiction. 

Lauren: Really? 

Matt: Apparently outside of the US, nonfiction, business books, things like that are really popular. It doesn't mean fiction is not and that you can't do this for fiction. Of course you can. I think it's just a little bit more competitive per se. But nonetheless, I wanted people to know again, as usual, we are trying to focus on things that are as equal or as favorable to both genres, fiction versus nonfiction, but that right now there currently is a bit of a skew towards nonfiction content on the foreign rights side.

Lauren: Yes. And also regardless of which one it's weighted more towards, which one's more favorable one way or the other the process of this is the same.

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: So regardless of whether you're writing fiction or nonfiction, if you're interested in licensing your foreign rights, you would go about that the same way. 

Matt: Yep. 

Lauren: DropCap was again super helpful. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Their blog was awesome. Lindsay sent some resources to Matt that was also super helpful in putting this together. One of the pieces of data that I got from them was that sales of translated books makes up 35% of all global book revenue. So if you're listening to this and you're like, why do I really care about reaching markets in other countries or something like that?

Matt: That’s a big percentage – 

Lauren: Like, that is a big percentage of book sales. 

Matt: 35% of global book revenue. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Depending on whose numbers you believe, you're talking in a double digit billion. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: So 35%. I mean, that's, that's a large chunk of revenue. 

Lauren: It is. I thought that was a cool piece of information. So obviously, if we're getting into the subject of why you would be interested in doing this: revenue. 

Matt: Yeah, money. 

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah.This is an opportunity for you to add new revenue streams to your existing content. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Because spoiler alert, you don't have to write a new book in order to do this. 

Matt: Well, let's face it, everywhere else you’re selling books right now, there's a lot of noise. There's a lot of books. There's a lot of competition, especially on the third party retail markets. So any extra competitive advantage you can gain by way of a new market or some other type of revenue stream or distribution channel, like. You should try it.

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: For sure.

Lauren: I mean, we did do an episode recently, and if you haven't heard it, I will link it in the show notes, about going wide with your book sales. This is just another version of that. 

Matt: Yeah

Lauren: This is another version of you expanding your audience and expanding your reach to a new audience that you might not have connected with based on where you were selling your book –

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – in the first place. 

Matt: Yeah. So it's a good way to expand your audience, you’re right. Again, opening up new opportunities, things like that. So when you talk about markets outside of the US, things are different. You might be looking at your current book sales here in the US and not feeling super great about them, but that could change outside of the US. Especially in a situation where you've licensed the book rights versus you're just trying to sell outside of the US and you're doing everything yourself. When you've got somebody else working to sell that book because they now have an invested interest in it, things are a little bit different. The idea that if you're, by your definition, underperforming in the U S or in another market, you have the option potentially to offset that and overperform in another market based on, you know, what some of their cultural needs might be or what's going on, what's trending, what's hot over there at the time. So it's definitely, again, worth a shot for those reasons. 

Lauren: Yeah. You also might, depending on what your business goals are and what your goals with your book are in the first place, if you have an interest in expanding your brand into a foreign market, a book is a great way for you to kind of do that, and kind of test the waters of a new market – 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – and get your name, your brand out there. Like, kind of fight for some name recognition that when you do further your efforts of breaking into that market, you already have a little bit of a foothold in there. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So I think that's a great reason. Or, you know, again, if you're…if you're not writing nonfiction, if you're writing fiction and you just want to test it out and see like, hey, what's going on over here? People interested in… anyone interested in cozy mysteries over here? Like, maybe the US is kind of dying down on that one, but Italy really in the cozy mysteries? 

Matt: Is anybody in Italy into cozy Amish vampire mysteries? 

Lauren: They could be. 

Matt: I would read that. 

Lauren: I'm sure. I'm waiting for you to write it. 

Matt: I would read at least one. I don't know if I’d get past that. But anything with vampires in it, I'm into.

Lauren: You gonna go see Sinners? 

Matt: Of course I am. 

Lauren: I've heard it's really good. 

Matt: Same.

Lauren: I'm a little scaredy cat – 

Matt: Although. 

Lauren: I think I might try to muster up the courage. Well, I just lied to you – I don't typically go out and see movies. I watch them at home. 

Lauren: That's fair. 

Matt: I'm a homebody. It's got to be like a major – like the next movie that I will actually go see in a theaters, actually, there's two coming up. The F1 movie is going to launch and it's going to be shown in IMAX. 

Lauren: Yeah, that does look cool.

Matt: So as a Formula 1 fanatic, I have to go see that in the theaters. And then Lilo and Stitch live action. I will absolutely go see that in a theater.

Lauren: Really? 

Matt: 100 percent. 

Lauren: Okay. That's fair. 

Matt: Are you not excited about that? Are you not a Lilo and Stitch person?

Lauren: I love Lilo and Stitch. I'm not really sold on any of the live action Disney movies. 

Matt: That's fair. Because a lot of them have been kind of like…

Lauren: Yeah. I actually have tickets for Thursday night to go see the new Marvel movie that comes out this week, so.

Matt: You're way more Marvel – 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: – deep than I am. 

Lauren: Yes, I am. That’s for sure. 

Matt: Is that the Thunderbolts? 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: I don't even understand that. 

Lauren: It doesn't matter because my favorite is The Winter Soldier, played by Sebastian Stan. 

Matt: Man, you're so weird. 

Lauren: I know.

Matt: I've never heard anybody say that – 

Lauren: I know. 

Matt: – except for you. 

Lauren: I know, I know. It’s fine

Matt: I guess that's cool in its own way though, okay.  

Lauren: That’s okay. That's me, it's fine. 

Matt: Yeah, alright. 

Lauren: Maybe I will go to more movies now.

Matt: I’m trying to remember the last theater experience I had, I don't remember. Oh, you know, I think it was – I think it was Beetlejuice 2.

Lauren: Wow, that was a while ago.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: That's like a good six months. 

Matt: Wait? Is that it? 

Lauren: More than six months ago. 

Matt: Have there been any Disney releases? I feel like I’ve been – 

Lauren: It’s just the – I think just – 

Matt: I feel like I've been something since Beetlejuice 2 

Lauren: Did you see Moana 2 in theaters? 

Matt: No, no no. 

Lauren: I didn't either, actually, I  still haven't watched it. 

Matt: Maybe it was Beetlejuice 2. Anyways. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: All right

Lauren: Well, if you want your book made into a movie in foreign countries, you should sell your foreign – you should license your foreign rights. We're so far. I'm so sorry to anybody listening to this episode. 

[16:18]

Matt: Alright, so if I did want my book listed in foreign markets or represented by a foreign entity, how would I know if my book is a good candidate? 

Lauren: That is a great question. Primarily, you're going to want to look at your existing data. You might know for sure, actually, that oh, it looks like I have a surprisingly large number of newsletter subscribers from this country. Or, you know, if you're selling direct and you have access to your customer sales data from your book sales, you might notice that you have sales data from a certain region – 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – outside of your own country. 

Matt: That's a good one. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I mean, for those who are selling direct and you have international markets open, meaning, you know, you're actively selling. Some people lock their stores down to the US because they don't want to deal with the shipping mapping or the VAT and tax stuff, which I totally understand. 

Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. 

Matt: And then other people are actively selling direct internationally. If you are, and you have that data, I mean, those signals, even just a few book sales in somewhere, you know, like, I don't know, South Korea or Ireland or whatever, you know, that is good data to have. And you can't really have that unless you're selling direct. Those are signals that could be telling you maybe it's worth a shot to try and get your book listed with a foreign rights entity in some of those areas. Those could be signals telling you like, hey, with a little more effort, somebody representing you or licensing this out to a publisher, there's something you could sell a lot of books there potentially. 

Lauren: Yeah. And of course that doesn't mean that if you don't have that data or you don't see that data that you shouldn't consider international sales –

Matt: No, yeah I’m just saying – 

Lauren: – or anything like that. That's just a good indicator – 

Matt: That's right. 

Lauren: If you're looking for a sign that it's worth your effort to do this, that is one good sign. 

Matt: Well, that was just me circling back –

Lauren: Oh yeah. 

Matt: – to this idea that the data you get from selling direct helps you in way more ways than you can imagine. 

Lauren: So many ways. So many ways. 

Matt: There's one right there. 

Lauren: It is. Absolutely. But then of course, also you could be maybe a little proactive instead and… say you're keeping up with publishing trends outside of or market trends outside of just your area. And you see, oh look, it looks like there's this hot new trend in this market. My book fits perfectly into that. What can I do to get my book over there? 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Couple of different ways to do it, but probably  the best indicator is going to be the variety of different ways that you actually can go about trying to license your book, your foreign rights to your book. Because the end result of all three of these different ways for how you do it is somebody will tell you whether or not your book is a good fit. So. 

Matt: Well, that's fair. Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. So let's get into that a little bit. 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: And we'll kind of talk through those in order of... 

Matt: We'll put them in order of how you've traditionally been able to get your…

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: Your book, your content licensed for foreign rights, all the way up to the most current and newest way to do it, which we think is the best. 

Lauren: Love that. 

[19:14]

Matt: So the oldest existing path to it would be what? 

Lauren: Actually having a publisher reach out to you. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And this is…this is something that does still happen for sure. Like, this is not a totally dead possibility. But it is much more passive and much less likely to be something that an author can proactively try to make happen. 

Matt: And it's going to probably be rare. I think this kind of happens based on book sales. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: And for your book sales to be of a…a volume and or velocity, I should say, where a publishing company or somebody, a buyer overseas is going to take notice. That's fairly rare. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So there is a possibility that as a self-published indie author, a foreign publisher could in theory reach out to you and say, hey, we came across your book because it's, it's selling really well, or there's really good buzz about it online or we…whatever, and we think it would be a really good fit for our market and we wanted to talk to you about licensing the rights to it. 

Matt: That's right. 

Lauren: Which, you know, on the one hand is kind of great for the author because it means you didn't have to put any time, money, effort, expense into securing that. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: They've come to you. You also then get to keep like whatever, whatever profit you make from that licensing sale. Like, you're not splitting it with anybody, because –

Matt: With an agent. 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: Well, maybe not. 

Lauren: Well. 

Matt: It just depends, but. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: The possibility exists that you don't have to give a percentage to an agent. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But then of course, the flip side of that is that especially if you don't have an agent on hand. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: You have no opportunity yourself to negotiate –

Matt: That's right. 

Lauren: – that contract. And you really have no way of knowing whether or not it's even valid or are these people in bad faith reaching out to you? 

Matt: Right, yeah. 

Lauren: Is there some kind of clause in here that you wouldn't recognize because you are not a foreign rights agent?

Matt: That's right. 

Lauren: And you didn't realize that you were accidentally signing away the rights to your book for 150 years and not five years. 

Matt: Yeah. And in that respect, we would never advise that an author creator goes into a contract with a traditional publisher without the guidance and help of an agent. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: You know what I mean? They earn their money because of that. It's worth paying them that percentage because of that. Because of that protection you get, because they're able to negotiate these things for you in your best interest, because they're incentivized to do so. So going into it without an agent, including something like foreign rights, is probably not advisable. Unless you've just got a lot of time in your hands, you're able to study up on some of the contract nuances and things like that. Otherwise it's worth the percentage to have an agent – 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: – help you with that. 

Lauren: Absolutely it is. Which is the next option. 

Matt: There you go. 

Lauren: On this list.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Which is like primarily what you see most time these days, is people – 

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: – negotiating through an agent. 

Matt: Right. Like, so when we – 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: – go to London Book Fair, for example, there is a whole massive room. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: That is, and you have to, you, you can't just walk in there, by the way, you have to have an appointment or something like that, but it's nothing but agents, foreign rights agents. And there's just tons and tons and tons of them. And they're all, it almost looks like speed dating set up down there. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: And you're just going and you're having appointments with the agents. So it's not…it's a big thing and it's not, it's not something that you can just, I don't know, walk up and be like, hey, can I…? You need to do your homework. And yes, you can meet with foreign rights agents at a lot of book shows or conferences, or at least a handful that we've been to, we've seen them, but it's not something where you just want to put your finger in the air be like, oh, that one looks good. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. This is something that if you have any experience with attempting to query an agent for traditional publishing, it is a very similar system to that. You as the author are going to reach out to potential agents, send them a query letter. If they are interested, they might ask for a copy of your book or a sample of your writing or something like that. And then if they choose to contract with you, then they will do the work of using their connections and experience to try to seek out and negotiate a deal for you. It’s always worth noting that both with traditional publishing and with something like foreign rights, just because you've queried with an agent and been accepted by an agent does not mean they will actually secure a deal for you. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: There's no guarantee. 

Matt: Yeah

Lauren: It just means that they believe enough in you that they said, yes, I think I can make something work for you here. So we're going to try it. And it is something that, like we were just saying, agents have a lot of knowledge, experience, resources. They've built their entire career on networking with the right people that they know are the right fit. And it's a point of pride for them professionally for most of them to be able to say like, I'm bringing the right book to the right people. 

Matt: That's right. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So, you know, and they do have the experience. This is where you would want to have an agent who can look at the contract that you're being offered and say, yes, this is a good deal. No, this isn't, I can try to negotiate a better deal for you. Don't ever sign anything that says this and this in it, whatever.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a really good point. Again, the similarities are striking between trying to book an agent to license your rights out internationally versus trying to book an agent to actually sell your manuscript to a traditional publishing house. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: And all agents, whether it's for the formal or the latter activity, they're all going to specialize in certain genres and types of content as well. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So making sure again, that you're with the right agent based on some of that criteria, I think is extremely critical.

Lauren: Yes, it is. And that is one of the things that does make this process difficult and time consuming for an author is you can't just say like, I'm going to Google top five agents in the country for negotiating foreign rights deals for books. You have to go find specifically agents that specialize in your genre, or are interested in taking on work in your genre or your niche or whatever it is.

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: You know, you can't just assume that all agents are willing to pitch all books to all – or maybe they only work in certain markets. There are some agents that specialize in European markets and some agents that specialize in Asian markets. And you need to pitch your book to the right people. And that absolutely takes time. I will have linked in the show notes, Jericho Writers has a database of agents that you can look at for that. We've referenced in the past the Editorial Freelancers Association and how they have the editorial…or the freelance editors database. This is kind of a similar thing to that. 

Matt: Oh, okay. 

Lauren: So if this is something that you want to look at. I'll have that linked in the show notes so you can check that out. 

Matt: Good. 

Lauren: But that does make it…it is time consuming. It's something that takes a lot of research. It's something that isn't always super accessible. Like Matt said, you know, you can try doing the speed dating style meeting agents at different events and stuff like that. But that means that you have to have the time and the budget to go to somewhere like Frankfurt Book Fair or Beijing International Book Fair is another one that I saw that was –

Matt: Don’t forget London. 

Lauren: Well, yes, but you already said London. 

Matt: I did. 

Lauren: You did. 

Matt: We’ll say it again. 

Lauren: All right, so. Not everyone can just fly to Germany – 

Matt: I don't – 

Lauren: – to meet some people and not even be guaranteed that they're going to get a meeting.

Matt: Maybe you know this. I haven't thought about it lately, but. We used to have BEA in the states where they also did this. Now that BEA is gone, I know that the US Book Show is now a thing, but I don't know if they do that or not. Do you know of any shows in the US where you're able to meet with foreign rights agents? 

Lauren: Not that I know of. Not that I know of. And I think that was kind of one of the big gaps left behind by – if you're not familiar, BEA was Book Expo America. And it was kind of a two-part convention in that the first couple of days were BEA and they were industry exclusive, pretty much. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: Like, you had to have some kind of publishing credentials in order to buy a ticket to that part of the event. And then it would shift on Saturday and Sunday into BookCon and BookCon was a reader-focused – 

Matt: General public. 

Lauren: – book, general – yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. You could buy tickets to it. They would have things like author signings and vendors that had really cool like, book merch. It was much more like a comic con – 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Thing as opposed to –

Matt: It was cool. 

Lauren: I loved BookCon. 

Matt: RIP. 

Lauren: Truly. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But it was, the first half were industry focused days. And I don't think that there is something that has come up to replace that in the time since then. 

[27:40]

Matt: That leads us into the third way that you can do that. And this is why we, we really like DropCap. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: They took the time to develop a rights marketplace specifically so that indie authors could have a place to easily try and do just that. License the rights to their content internationally without having to go through some of the other steps that we just talked about. It's such a really cool platform that they've built and it's really easy to use. If you're an indie creator, it's as simple as going to their website and signing up for an account and listing your work. On the other side of that platform, they have buyers that they've been working with for years and years and years. Lindsay and her team, they're all experienced foreign rights agents and they all have their various genres and backgrounds that they work in, they run the gamut from fiction through nonfiction. But nonetheless, they've built this marketplace. It's a wonderful website. And then again, you'd list your book on the marketplace. They've got on the other end of that marketplace, buyers who are looking for books that fit the content that they're wanting to purchase, or license the rights to. And then DropCap handles all the transactions for you. And if you want representation, they're there to also represent you for whatever the standard agents percentage and fees are, which is great. And so they've really simplified, and I think made this accessible, to such a large group of people that otherwise, as we've just been talking about, would have some pretty daunting barriers to entry. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: To say the least. But again, when we were looking at this, I was just like, man, this is, this is really cool. Like, this is different. And so – it's not free, of course, there's a fee to use the marketplace. But in my opinion, it's pretty low in terms of what you're going to get. And again, to be able to have access to that and to have your content listed where if I'm not mistaken, almost 3,000 different rights buyers use this platform regularly to look for new pieces of content to buy and license, so. Yeah, when we came across this, we were like, man, we just. We wanted to do an episode on foreign rights, but it was a little complicated because we felt like there wasn't a good solution that we could offer indie authors and indie creators and coming across this, we're like, we need to do this for sure, so. 

Lauren: Yeah. And as you know, as we've said in past episodes before, this is not an ad. We don't do sponsored episodes. We don't do sponsored plugs. This is genuinely a tool that we've come across recently and been like, wow, this is really cool. We want to tell our listeners about this.

Matt: Well, yeah, I mean, yes and no. I think that absolutely we want to tell ‘em about it. But at this point, I would treat it like a big old ad, because we're that fond of it. But yeah – 

Lauren: Let me – they're not paying us to say nice things about them. 

Matt: No no. 

Lauren: It's an ad in the sense that we found this tool. We think it's really cool. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: We're going to hype it up because again, we think it's really cool. Not because they're paying us money to say nice things about them. 

Matt: Yeah, I'm too expensive to say nice things that people can't afford what it would cost for me to say something nice about them. 

Lauren: I was going to say, that's actually probably very true. Also, anyone who knew you well would just go, oh, there's some fishy happening here. 

Matt: Come on. 

Lauren: He's too nice about this right now. 

Matt: That's very rude. 

Lauren: I'm just saying an authentic – 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: – nice comment from you is invaluable. It's worth its weight in gold. 

Matt: All right. That's a better way to phrase it. 

Lauren: Okay.  

Matt: That, that one’s nice. 

Lauren: There you go. But one of the things that I thought was really cool as I was looking through DropCap and what they offer was that they're very clear that they'll help you as part of the process of you listing your book on their website, on their marketplace, because again, they're all experienced with this. They know what kind of information is relevant. They know what's important for you to include. So if you were trying to do this on your own as an author, you might not necessarily know how to pitch your book to foreign publishers, foreign buyers, anything like that, because you're not clear on what information is relevant – 

Matt: Right, yeah, 

Lauren: – for those markets or for those buyers. And DropCap is setting you up for success with that. And really guiding you through – again, cannot overemphasize how useful their resources were and everything. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But just, in their setup process, they help you out with: this is the information that you need to answer this question, share this information, do this, include this, which was very cool. And I think that that's invaluable.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: To your point that there is a fee to use. I think it's a monthly – 

Matt: Oh, it's –

Lauren: – like a, like a subscription –  

Matt: – monthly or yearly. 

Lauren: Yeah. I mean, the same as –  

Matt: Like most things. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. But what is that in comparison to the value of your time doing all this manually?

Matt: Yeah. And it's not like you just pay it and your book gets listed in somewhere with a thousand other books. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: There's actually a bunch of stuff they do, which was really cool to learn too. You get your own dedicated author page. There's a custom landing page that's made for your book as well, or each book that you list, so you can do more than one book. And then there's a lot of system matching that happens. So if a group of, or a, licensee or buyer of rights is looking for the specific type of fiction or nonfiction, you upload your book, landing page is built, they've got this built-in algorithm for mapping and syncing buyers with content creators. \

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: And then there's some other cool stuff too. You get access to a bunch of their… They've got like some educational courses about foreign rights and things like that. So it's not like you just pay this fee and then you're thrown into like, Facebook classifieds marketplace or some crap where it's like, basically Dante's sixth ring of hell or something. But yeah, it's to me, it's just really cool. I – to me this was very reminiscent of Lulu and why Lulu was even started to begin with all those years ago. There's a specific need in the market and it's built to give underdogs a competitive advantage and that really resonates with me. I like that. 

Lauren: Yeah, that's awesome. Did you choose the sixth circle specifically or was that just a lucky…

Matt: Why do you want to know that?

Lauren: Well, I was trying to remember which, which circle of hell it was.  

Matt: Are you Googling over there? 

Lauren: I did. It's been a while since I read Dante's Inferno. But it is the one where heretics are entombed in flaming tombs. So good choice. Cause that does – that is actually the circle of hell – 

Matt: I love Dante's Inferno. 

Lauren: My, uh…you ready for a new level of nerd? 

Matt: I. 

Lauren: I think you know this about me already – 

Matt: Maybe, but. 

Lauren: – but it's okay. 

Matt: Go ahead. 

Lauren: I was in the marching band in high school in a competitive field band, marching band. And our – 

Matt: Please tell me you played the tuba.

Lauren: I was in the colorguard. Thank you. 

Matt: Oh my god. 

Lauren: And our senior year, our show was Divine Comedy.

Matt: Wow.

Lauren: It was actually really cool. It was a really cool show and it was the closest we came, we came in second place in the state. 

Matt: I think it’s cool that a school even considers that as a theme. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: But wow. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. There's so much we could get into there. 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: I did also read the Divine Comedy in college. Well, I read Inferno. I didn't read the other two books. 

Matt: I have a really, really old copy of it that my grandmother, RIP, got me. She found it in some vintage bookstore somewhere. I don't remember what it is but it's old, like really old, and it's one of my most favorite possessions.

Lauren: I have one of those like, folio editions. You know, the ones that are like cloth bound? 

Matt: Oh yeah. 

Lauren: But I've never read them. I just have them.

Matt: I think we should do an episode where you and I just bring in some of our favorite books and talk about them. 

Lauren: I'm gonna need to bring a suitcase. 

Matt: No, I'm gonna have to limit you to like, let's say three.

Lauren: Oh God. Okay. 

Matt: Well, I mean if we each had three and we spent ten minutes on each of that's sixty minutes.

Lauren: Like a book rec – okay. 

Matt: Everybody's going to stop watching or listening – 

Lauren: You’re right. 

Matt: – after the first one. 

Lauren: You’re right. 

Matt: I'll have to go first. 

Lauren: You will have to go first.

Matt: Cause they’re gonna get tired of your Taylor Swift and, and your weird summer romance stories. Maybe not. 

Lauren: There are so many books that I couldn't even – okay. We'll come, we'll circle back to that. 

Matt: One of my other favorites that I own is a first edition of the Goonies as – in book form. 

Lauren: Oh, wow. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Okay. Well, that's cool. 

Matt: Yeah. I guess. 

Lauren: We'll come back to this idea. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: I like this idea. 

Matt: All right. 

[35:39]

Lauren: I do think that it's probably worth talking at least a little bit about what happens to your book after you've licensed your rights. What that process actually looks like. And this feels like a moment where I'm going to add the disclaimer to remind everyone that we are not lawyers, we are not rights agents, we are not…

Matt: Yep

Lauren: Any of these things. So we're not going to get – 

Matt: Yeah

Lauren: – super fine detail about it. 

Matt: So ask somebody else besides us. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: Do your damn homework. 

Lauren: Right. But basically what you're gonna be looking at is you will be signing a contract. That's, that’s what happens, because you are licensing the rights to your content. You are keeping your copyright. You still retain the rights to your own IP. 

Matt: That’s right. 

Lauren: And make sure that you are not signing anything that changes that. That is something that you definitely do not wanna sign, but you are gonna be looking at a contract that will include things like...terms like how long they're actually going to have the rights. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Some places will license rights to something for five years maybe. Or they will license the rights, but it's only within these specific countries, or we can only translate it into these specific languages. There will also probably be something included in there that talks about what the go-to-market timeline is. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Because you will see this happen in trad pub in the US and stuff like that with film rights, where someone will option the rights to a book and then just sit on them for a decade. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So you don't want that to be the case. If somebody buys the rights to your books or licenses the rights to your books, you do want them to say, like, we promise that we will go to market with this book within eighteen months. 

Matt: Well, I will say though, not that I care to be fair to traditional by any means, but usually when you see those extreme timelines, it's due to creative differences.

Lauren: Oh yeah. 

Matt: And stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, you're going to want to make sure that you see a go to market timeline and understand – because there's work involved for them, right? 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: You can't just turn around and immediately publish it and Azerbaijan or wherever it is that they're buying the rights for it to. There has to in many cases, there's translations that need to happen. Cover probably has to be redesigned. You know, interior formatting might need to change if it's going to South Korea or Japan or something like that. So, yeah, understanding that timeline, though, you're right, is extremely important. So the expectations are very clear.

Lauren: Yeah. And then the other thing that you're going to look at, actually probably the first thing you should look at in that is, is your revenue contract –

Matt: That’s a good one. 

Lauren: – and what that's going to look like. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: I mean, it might be that, similar to trad pub, where they're going to do an advance, they're going to pay you a flat fee in advance – 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – for the rights to your book. There might be some kind of royalties deal built into that, that once you pay through your or you earn through your advance, here's what your royalties will look like after that. There might be some kind of information about a payment schedule on there. Are you getting paid annually, quarterly, monthly, every time you hit a certain threshold on sales, whatever, blah, blah. And again, all these things are why it's worth having an agent involved in this process because the agent will be able to negotiate these terms and translate them into something that a lay person will understand. 

Matt: Yeah. The end result is that you are essentially allowing, granting permission to foreign publishers and distributors – 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: the ability to publish and sell your book in different languages or versions in countries outside of your home country, right? 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So you may or may not be selling or licensing the rights to all versions, one version, different formats. Those are all the things you need to pay attention to and figure out what you care about the most. Obviously the more versions and formats you agree to licensing the more money you may make from that. But the flip side to that is you may feel very strongly about, let's say your book being translated into an audiobook for a market like, I don't know, let's just throw out Russia. So you may want to think about that. If that's something that concerns you, then you may want to make sure that that is not included. So paying attention to those things, I think, is really important. And I didn't think about this either, but you noted this in the outline. Remember, based on our copyright conversations, copyright law is not universal. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: So that's a really good point that you make here that in the outline, you need to be very aware about copyright laws in those areas. And that again is what an agent is great for too, to help advise you on some of those things. 

Lauren: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Also, just a quick note, as Matt was talking about audiobook rights and stuff like that, which is perhaps something that I would love to talk more about in the near future. That is also something as you're thinking about licensing your rights one way or another that can happen domestically as well, specifically with audiobooks. 

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: That if you don't have the time or the ability or the access to producing your own audiobook, you may choose to license out the rights exclusively to your audiobook. So you're still maintaining your digital and print rights in a domestic market, but you might license it out to like, oh, this studio is going to produce and distribute my audiobook for me. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: There are a lot of different ways for that to happen, both domestically and internationally. That's maybe something we'll talk more about soon. I don't know. I’m gonna trap Matt here. 

Matt: Well, I always have the option to not show up that day and just sub in Paul or somebody. 

Lauren: Don't be silly. I could talk about audiobooks for a full hour by myself with an empty chair. 

Matt: But what you forget is that I care about all five listeners that we have and maybe I don't want to subject them to you talking about this for an hour. 

Lauren: Maybe they'd be interested in it. 

Matt: Well, 

Lauren: I don't know. 

Matt: They would need to email in and request that. 

Lauren: If anybody, if one person listening wants an episode on audiobooks. 

Matt: That's just Lauren talking for an hour about audiobooks. 

Lauren: No, no, no, I didn't say that. 

Matt: You did say that. 

Lauren: I said that I could do it. 

Matt: Well, I said nobody wants that. 

Lauren: I just – Proof of concept for an episode in general. 

Matt: I'm going to need more than one email request, by the way. I'm going to need at least five. 

Lauren: It's already on the list. You already approved it. 

Matt: All five of our listeners or watchers need to write in and say that they would like to see that. 

Lauren: I can pay some friends. I could get five people to send you an email. 

Matt: Oh my goodness. Alright. 

Lauren: Hi everyone. 

[41:39]

Matt: We are, uh. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: We're coming close to the end here. So let's, real quick, let's just talk about – So we talked about most of the important things, but you did mention, and we should follow up with what actually is going to happen once they have the rights. Real quickly, some of the things that tend to happen is for most markets, there's going to be a translation that's required. They'll take care of that. Translation is a tough one. It's not as simple as just running it through like Google Translate or something. 

Lauren: Please don’t. 

Matt: There are cultural nuances and things that need to be accounted for. It's not just a cut and dry overnight process. So you're going to have to have some patience there. That's where you're kind of going to have some faith and trust and your agent and the company that you've licensed the rights to. So yeah, that's a tough one. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I don't want to spend a lot of time on it, but you've linked to an article here that Dave Chesson wrote. It sounds like it's also got some good information in there, especially if you're going to take on, for whatever reason, translation of your works, whether it's for foreign rights licensing or not. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: But just know that most of the time they will handle that. Then they're also more than likely going to want to redesign or repackage your covers. Probably maybe touch on the formatting when they do the translation. There's going to be some design changes to better accommodate, again, that particular geographic location, their cultural nuances compared to the culture for which you wrote that book, especially business books and things.

Lauren: Yeah, I mean, even if it's something as simple as just translating the terms to make sure that like if there's, don't want to say slang, but like certain – 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – certain ways that we refer to things in the language the book is natively written in that would not make sense to the readers, but the concepts make sense to the readers. 

Matt: That’s right. 

Lauren: Like there's things like that, that they're, they're going to want to update for sure. Obviously that goes along with translations. And I also do want to point out that translations includes more than just the actual content of your book. 

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: It includes everything. That's everything from your title and your cover design, your cover copy, your back cover copy, your interior front and back matter, stuff like that. Like all of that, even your marketing copy and your main USPs for your book and stuff like that –

Matt: Yep. 

Lauren: – might get edited and translated to be relevant within specific markets. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And I mean, translated literally and figuratively. Like I mean, translated like, translated from English to French and also translated, rewritten, potentially, in order to resonate better with this audience. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: A hundred percent. 

Lauren: Yep. And yeah, like you were saying, they're going to repackage and redesign the book. 

Matt: Most likely. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Yes. And in many cases, it's going to look wildly different. 

Lauren: Yeah. Remember also that there are some, some real special buyers and readers out there in the world, like yours truly, who will specifically go out there and buy different editions of books because they have a new or cool or an interesting cover, even if it's a book they already own. And even sometimes if it's a book in a language they can't read. 

Matt: That's a smaller audience but yes, I've literally seen Lauren go to a bookstore in London specifically to get a copy of a book she already owned because the cover variation for the UK was different – 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: – than the one that you had for the US. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: That sub audience does exist. They're smaller, but sure. 

Lauren: I own, would, I would say at this point, over the last three years of us going to London Book Fair, I will come home with at least one book each time. That is specifically a book that I already own, but I bought the UK edition because the cover was different in the UK.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So. 

[44:54]

Matt: Anything else? I think. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I think that's a pretty good start. I do again, I think that there's a lot more value to be found, education to be had over, at the Drop Cap website. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: There's certainly other resources out there. You've got some pretty, pretty heavy hitters out there that have, have worked with DropCap, and people like Joanna Penn and some of the others who, again, they're very well versed in foreign rights and they trust DropCap. So we trust DropCap.

Lauren: You know, maybe that is actually kind of what I wanna, my last note that I want to leave it on, is as I was doing research for this episode, DropCap was incredibly helpful. Their resources were phenomenal. But I did – I do try to just find information from more than one source. 

Matt: Sure. 

Lauren: I want to make sure that I'm getting some well-rounded, not biased information. And, you know, I checked all my usual outlets. I checked all of those sources that I've come to trust, like Joanna Penn. And when it comes to any kind of indie publishing topic. And the overwhelming, I would say like 95% of the articles and resources that I found on the subject, we're talking about using an agent or something like DropCap. There was very little information on how to do this stuff yourself. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So if you've somehow, if you've gotten to the end of this episode and are not convinced that it is worth your time and effort, if this is something you're interested in doing to either go the longer route of querying agents or use the resource like the DropCat marketplace. If you're still thinking like, no, I can do all this on my own. I would maybe consider doing some research into that. Because I had a very hard time finding any credible sources that talked about doing this on your own. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Like, of all the DIY things that are possible within indie publishing and self-publishing, this is something that I think there are some really great experts and people out there that know how to do this and you should use them and not try to do this one on your own. 

Matt: Agreed. Anything with a contract involved, honestly is – 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: – is something you should pursue with help, not on your own. 

Lauren: Yeah, that's probably a good rule. 

Matt: Yeah. I mean. 

Lauren: Not even for publishing just for life. 

Matt: Even attorneys have their own attorneys. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

[47:04]

Matt: All right. Well, that was fun. 

Lauren: It was fun. 

Matt: Not too bad. 

Lauren: No, I think we did okay.  

Okay.

Lauren: Sorry for the couple of tangents that in there I'm inevitably not gonna edit them out. So enjoy them. 

Matt: All right. Well. Until next time. 

Lauren: All right. Thanks for listening, everyone. If you have any questions, comments, concerns, anything that you want to talk more about, anything that you want to know about audiobooks, perhaps or anything else, 

Oh god. 

Lauren: You can always leave us a comment on Lulu's social media on our YouTube channel. You can email us at podcast@lulu.com and you can leave us a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. We do check those. So if you have anything nice to say, if you have anything mean to say, maybe you could email me. 

Matt: Yeah we haven't gotten any reviews in a while. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Maybe we've gone through all our listeners. Maybe that's the only listeners. What do we got? I think 14 on Spotify reviews. That’s it. 

Lauren: Yeah, but we have more weekly listeners than that. 

Matt: Are you sure? 

Lauren: Yeah, I check our metrics every week. 

Matt: Then we should have more reviews. You guys should go leave us some reviews. 

Lauren: Yeah, leave us a review. Like and subscribe. 

Matt: All that stuff. 

Lauren: We'd love it. We'd really appreciate it. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And ooh, if anyone has any ideas for bracelets for CEX –  

Matt: What do your bracelets say today? 

Lauren: Let me know. 

Matt: Man I almost forgot 

Lauren: Again. 

Matt: I forgot last episode. 

Lauren: You forgot last week, I know. 

Matt: That's not cool. 

Lauren: They say pathological people pleaser. It's three different bracelets with one word each on them. That was a good note to end on. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: If you have any ideas for bracelets either for me personally or for bracelets that I should make for CEX for all of our cool listeners to come to CEX, leave us a review or send us an email. Let us know. 

Matt: Perfect. 

Lauren: Alright. 

Matt: Later.