Matt: Welcome everybody. This is episode 62 of Publish & Prosper. And today I'm going to try and avoid looking at the pillowcase that Lauren has set over our recording console right in front of me and try to stay on topic, which is sustainability and publishing. 

Lauren: I wish you the best of luck with that. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Not the pillowcase part, but I am going to try very hard to get you off topic throughout this episode. So. 

Matt: Well, I haven't eaten lunch yet too, so that's working against you.

Lauren: We are kind of playing beat the clock with that right now. 

Matt: We are. Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: There's also an impending snowstorm heading our way. 

Lauren: Which is what we're actually playing beat the clock with. 

Matt: No, I'm only playing beat the clock with lunch. 

Lauren: Oh?

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: You're staying here no matter what? 

Matt: Until I get my lunch, absolutely. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: It could be six inches of snow out there, but until I get my sandwich, I'm not. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: I respect that. 

Matt: Okay. So let's get moving. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt:  Sustainability and publishing. There is - there could be a lot to talk about here. We will do our best to streamline this to beat the snow and the sandwich delivery people. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: But nonetheless, it is an important topic. It is one that we actually care a lot about here at Lulu, as much as I joke about it. And we're gonna jump right in and tell you why. But first, I think Lauren has a sword to fall on. 

Lauren: I do, I do. I need to correct myself because I was doing some research for this episode while also working on editing our last episode. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: And stumbled across some misinformation that I provided in the last episode. And I wanna clear that up. Wow, that lasted for about two minutes.

Matt: It's like a little ghost. 

Lauren: It is like a little – if I put a little ghost face on it, will you like it more?

Matt: That's a big possibility.

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: All right, great. I will consider that then. But I just, we talked in the last episode about the book sales and the record breaking book sales for Rebecca Yarrow's new book, Onyx Storm. I just wanted to clarify the numbers that I got in there a little bit because there were a couple of different sources reported – and I could go down a whole rabbit hole complaining about how everything is behind a paywall and it's really – 

Matt: Let’s not. 

Lauren: – really hard to find any information that is not behind a paywall right now but - thank you. So Onyx Storm sold 1.3 million print copies in the first week, 2.7 million combined format copies, so –

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: – ebook, audiobook, and print book. 

Matt: Which is still wildly impressive. 

Lauren: Which is still - it breaks the record for first week sales for adult fiction.

Matt: Got it. 

Lauren: And the 12 million books that I referenced that it sold was the complete of all three books in that series, it's an incomplete series, but all three books so far in that series, in all three formats, so print, ebook, and audio. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Have sold a combined 12 million copies. 

Matt: Alright. 

Lauren: To date. 

Matt: Well, there you go. 

Lauren: And I feel better now, thank you. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: Thank you for letting me do that. 

Matt: Let's pull the sword out and keep moving. 

Lauren: Okay, great. Great. Love that. 

Matt: I would imagine most people that actually listen to this podcast also understand the complexities around book sales reporting and probably less complexities and more gaps in the information and reporting sources, so. We'll forgive you on that one. 

Lauren: Well, I mean, they might not. 

Matt: I'm sure they will.

Lauren: Oh no, no. 

Matt: And I'm sure Rebecca Yarros will forgive you. 

Lauren: I'm hoping that they forgive me on that. But I'm realizing – this is actually the third time that I've had this conversation this week that I'm realizing how little people outside of our wheelhouse understand about book sales data and information. 

Matt: Or the lack thereof, you mean? 

Lauren: And - yes. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: The inaccessibility of book sales data information. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: There is no publicly accessible way for you to find book sales data. You as not the author and not the publisher and not somebody with a subscription to BookScan. There is no like, concrete, definitive way for you to find out how many copies of a book have sold since its publication date. 

Matt: Yeah, I know what you're trying to say. And just so that somebody out there listening this doesn't go, no, she's wrong. You can find book sales data that somebody else is quoting or putting in an article that they pulled from their membership to BookScan or some other data source. I mean, you also get book sales data from places like Bowker and these other ISBN sales places. And so, I mean, there are other places to get it. 

The point is that it's not all encompassing, because most of the time, almost all of the time, any book sales data that's out there is solely reported by either one, ISBN number sales, or two, straight from the retailers like Target, Walmart, Barnes & Noble. So point of sale retail places that actually report these numbers into BookScan or some of the other places. So that leaves out all of the other ways that books are created and sold. And then Amazon reports their numbers separately also, obviously. As a publicly traded company they have to. 

So you can find that data, but it's very sort of disjointed. And again, it only represents a certain portion of the pie, because there's so many other places out there that people are creating and selling books. I don't want to go down this rabbit hole anymore, but you're right. Maybe that's another episode, but I'm afraid it would just be us on our soap boxes. And I don't think people need that on their commute to work, wherever they're listening to us. 

Lauren: Personally, I think I'm at my best when I'm up on a soapbox. 

Matt: Well, it just makes you that much taller than everybody else. So I don't know that you should probably do that. 

Lauren: That's true. But also our listeners don't know that because we're always sitting down in these episodes.

Matt: You're also very pink today. 

Lauren: I am very pink today. I'm not wearing any black. That's not true, my socks are black. Just kidding. 

Matt: Maybe that's it. Maybe it's less that you're just wearing so much pink and more that there's just no black – 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: – that's discernible today. 

Lauren: There's no black to balance it out. 

Matt: Yeah. So what do your bracelets say? 

Lauren: What do my… I'm not even wearing any black bracelets. Wow, what a weird day. 

Matt? Are you kidding me? You're not even wearing black bracelets. 

Lauren: No. Well. 

Matt: Should I be worried about the state of what's to come today? If you're not wearing any black at all? 

Lauren: Probably. My bracelets say You'll Be Fine, A Long Time Coming. And…I didn't think this one through all the way. This is a, an acronym for a song title for a Fall Out Boy song. And the acronym is G I N A S F S, and the full title is Gay is Not A Synonym For Stupid.

Matt: That's a lot to remember. 

Lauren: Yes, it is. 

Matt: Why didn't they? Okay. All right. 

Lauren: Well, because they got made fun of after their sophomore album for how long all their song titles were. So then the next album they put out, they put a bunch of short – 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: – acronym titles that stood for longer things. But it was still like…Thanks For The Memories that has all the vowels taken out of it. So it's just the Thnks Fr… blah blah blah

Matt: I'm sure that's more clever for fans of theirs – 

Lauren: Sure is. 

Matt: – than the band themselves. 

Lauren: It's okay. 

Matt: Are we still doing the random pull from the jar thing? 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Okay. I like that. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: All right. Okay. So. 

Lauren: Anyway

Matt: Yeah, let's, let's – 

Lauren: Sustainability and publishing.  

Matt: Let's get on track here, because I'm getting chilly and sandwich guy’s probably on his way. 

Lauren: That scarf does look great on you. 

Matt: I do look pretty good with a scarf. I feel –

Lauren: Yeah, it suits you.

Matt: I feel somewhat restricted. I feel like I have to turn like a robot. I don't wear scarves, uh, hardly ever. I can't remember the last time I did. 

Lauren: I can't imagine why. 

Matt: This might be why. I feel like a ghost is lightly choking me. But, um. AnywaysAll right. 

Lauren: Okay, great. 

[7:23]

Matt: I don't know how many people out there listening know that Lulu is a certified B Corp. 

Lauren: We are, and that's something that we're pretty proud of. 

Matt: It is. Can you explain to everybody what that means and why we're proud of that? 

Lauren: Yeah. B Corps are businesses that meet very specific, high standards of verified social and environmental performance, public transparency, and legal accountability. So it's a movement, I believe B Labs is the nonprofit that organizes this? 

Matt: I don't know if they're the ones that organize it, but they're certainly the ones that make a lot of effort to help businesses get through the process. 

Lauren: Yeah, and it's any company that you see that is B Corp certified has gone through rigorous standardized testing for an impact assessment to test whether or not they are maintaining and achieving the standards that are set by this company, or by this nonprofit organization, in order to be qualified as a B Corp. It's also something that we have to do – like, you don't just qualify once and then you can go and let your standards slip and you'll maintain that qualification forever. We do it, I believe it's every three years we're recertified. So you're required to uphold these standards. And it's, it's something that you see a lot of big companies that genuinely care about their status as this are the companies that you would expect them to be.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Like Patagonia, I feel like is, one that's always very like their business practices are usually held to very like, high ethical standards and stuff like that. People recognize them as a company that cares a lot about their business practice and how people are interacting with the company and all that. Companies like Ben & Jerry's, Warby Parker, Bombas, Allbirds, a lot of these companies that you think of as being environmentally friendly, sociologically involved.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And like, very customer forward and stuff like that. Those are all companies that include their status as a B Corp to be something that's important to them. And so are we. 

Matt: B Lab is kind of like the, not the governing body, but they're the ones that really help and drive the types of policies and the criteria that would put somebody into that category of B Corp. And they also, again, they help businesses get through all of the things that you need to do to become certified as a B Corp. 

Lauren: Got it. 

Matt: So they are involved in several different ways. But B Corp is more of a, it's a status that you achieve through a bunch of rigorous things like you just denoted. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And it's not just, we're talking about this right now in the context of us being more sustainable than, spoiler alert, I guess that's our net net on this episode is that we're making the argument that print-on-demand and using a print-on-demand company like Lulu is more environmentally friendly than traditional publishing. 

Matt: Yeah, yeah, sure.

Lauren: But that's, B Corp isn't just about that. Like, that is one of the things, and you know, one of the standards that we're held to is stuff like all of our product materials and packaging materials are either recyclable, come from recycled materials, or acquired from sustainably sourced materials. But beyond that, it also includes things like regularly giving back to the community. We have recycling and composting initiatives in our office, our in-house work policies and stuff like that. Like it's an all-encompassing thing. It's not just about sustainability. 

Matt: Yeah, I mean, they look at a lot of different things. It's not just our manufacturing supply chain that they look at. That's a big part of it, but they do look at - internally, in our company - what are our policies around lots of different things. They look at some of our financial things that we spend our money on. Again, a lot of our volunteering efforts and community work. So it is a pretty holistic and all-encompassing approach to things, not just an environmental component. It's really a lot of everything. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: So, and again, a big part of that is internal stuff that's related to the company itself, staffing, recruiting, finances, all of that stuff. So yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah.

[11:07]

Matt: Why would anybody care? Who cares?

Lauren: Well, hopefully because it's important. 

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: They estimate that 32 million trees are cut down every year to make paper for print books in the US. That's a substantial number. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: That's a substantial number. 

Matt: It's a lot of trees. 

Lauren: Yes, yes it is. But beyond that, consumers care. And this is something that we're seeing more and more. There was a joint study conducted by McKinsey and Nielsen in 2020. They said over 60% of consumers surveyed said that they would pay more for a product with sustainable packaging. There was also a Harvard Business Reviews study that talked about specifically sustainability demands within Gen Z and millennial consumers and how they- they consider them like an even higher priority than some of the older consumers –

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – in the market and we are shifting to a place where Gen Z and millennials have the largest buying power of any generation. We're not there yet. But we're working on it. 

Matt: I was gonna say, that's interesting. 

Lauren: I know. We're not there yet for sure. 

Matt: I think the statement that we're shifting to a point where Gen Z and Millennials hold more of the buying power and or the financial sort of purse strings. I think that's just normal. 

Lauren: Right. Yes. 

Matt: As each generation gets older like the next generation comes in so I don't know how much weight I put behind that right now. But I do agree and I think that there's a lot of studies out there and there's just a lot of even just case studies where there's not full-on, you know, 4,000 people surveyed or things like that. But even just case studies around consumer behavior right now and the way that people choose to support specific brands and for what reasons. 

And it is pretty commonly known that right now, brands that can effectively convey their commitment to a particular thing, whether that's the environment or something to do with some sort of societal or systemic issue right now, that people are more inclined to give their money to those brands and want to support brands where they feel like at least some percentage of their money is going to help some greater cause than just making sure that they have the top line HDMI adapter in their home, like for their TV. 

So I do think that that's important. And I think that the number of B Corp brands that you're seeing out there just continues to grow exponentially. More and more, if I'm on a website or somebody's social media account for a brand and I'm looking at certain things, I see that B Corp logo and I do feel better about potentially spending my money with them. 

Lauren: And I think that's really kind of maybe the TL;DR version of this is there are plenty of consumers that don't know what a B Corp is and don't care one way or another about it. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: We've been a B Corp since 2016. So the entire time that I've worked at Lulu and beyond that. I have had plenty of conversations with people about us being a B Corp. I have had people say, oh my god, that's great. Like, that is a huge point in your favor. I've never had somebody say, well, I don't want to work with you guys because you're a B Corp. It's really only a good thing. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: You know, it's at, at worst a neutral thing. It's never a bad thing. And it is something that you can say, if you are an author that publishes with Lulu, you can't say that your business is a B Corp, but you can say that your publisher is a B Corp. So your books are printed through environmentally friendly – 

Matt: Yeah, I mean – 

Lauren: – sustainable practices. 

Matt: We've had a lot of people, you know, be able to use some of that to their advantage. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I mean, we have people that use Lulu to fulfill, especially if they're fulfilling only in the US, they will literally put that their products are made in the US, and that's true. 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: We have US print facilities where everything is made, created, bound, shipped in the US, an extension of that, yeah. So being able to say that your publisher practices the highest standards and sustainability and other things. You can absolutely say those things if you're using a company like us, that is B Corp certified, that does go through these rigorous types of testing and qualifications to achieve that certification. Which we just finished again, this past couple of months. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So shout out to JoAnn, Staci, Lali, all the people that make sure that we, we stay B Corp certified. But yeah, by extension, you can – if you’re a savvy marketer – you can put some of that stuff on your site or in your social media. Be careful how you represent yourself. But I think to keep going where you were heading with this was kind of the differences between a traditional publishing company and how they have their books printed and distributed versus an indie publishing company that utilizes print-on-demand. That's not to say that traditional publishing companies don't utilize print-on-demand at times –  
Lauren: Oh, they do. 

Matt: – for some of their backlist stuff or other things. But for the most part they’re still predominantly powered by offset printing, in many cases overseas. 

[15:52]

Matt: So I think that's where we should jump in and talk about, you know, when you buy a book that is traditionally published, where's your money going? What's it paying for? And how are those things printed? And why is that not so great for us? 

Lauren: Yeah. Well, it also, not just where is your money going and how is that printed, but what all is involved in that process? 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. The whole thing. We've done episodes on this. We also have a lot of really cool content about how books are printed and made, but high level if you want a better understanding in the traditional publishing industry. So right now I'm talking about, let's say for example, when Onyx Storm came out, what did that print production look like? Books are printed in bulk in the traditional publishing industry, offset printed or printed in massive print runs. The inventory is stored at a warehouse associated with the publisher until it's ready to be shipped out to bookstores. 

That is also something that I don't know if people realize. When it's something like a big, especially a big release like Onyx Storm or like when the Harry Potter books were coming out and stuff like that, they're not shipping those to the bookstores weeks ahead of time so that they're – most bookstores don't have the kind of inventory storage to have those stored somewhere. There's also a huge security risk, it's a lot easier for those things to get leaked if they're at the bookstores like way ahead of time. So if it's a big print run, something like that, they have to store those books somewhere. They had them all printed ahead of time, but they had to have them stored somewhere. 

And then from there, they are gonna be shipped out to all the individual retailers throughout the country. They'll be stored onsite at whatever retailer that is until copies are sold. Hopefully, hopefully, all the copies are sold. Eventually that bookstore will reach a point where they will have unsold copies of that book that they will no longer have any interest in stocking in their store, at which point those books will have to be either shipped back to the publisher, shipped to another distribution warehouse or somewhere that is going to destroy them or destroy them on site. 

Matt: Yeah, I think we skipped one thing in there though. 

Lauren: Did I? 

Matt: So if you're talking about the entire logistical run of how a book goes from being printed and then it gets into the stores to try and be sold. There's a logistical piece from when those books are printed. An offset printer typically is overseas. I mean, there's some in the U.S., but I think these days based on supply chain issues and quite frankly, costs associated, most of it is still printed overseas and a lot of it in China. 

And so there's a piece there that we have to talk about, which is the logistics of getting those tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or more, you know, up in the millions sometimes, of books from China and the other places that it's printed, over to the U.S. They're oftentimes shipped in containers, right? We all know that that logistical process is not always the most environmentally friendly and or expeditious. And then they do get over, then they have to be trucked from the port to the warehouses, right? 

So when you talk about again, the impact, the environmental impact that a lot of these books are creating, their carbon footprint, if you will, you have to factor those things in. Those container ships are not environmentally friendly at all. The trucks that are transporting them from the ports to the distribution centers, in many cases, are not very environmentally friendly. And yes, I know that's how most of our goods get. 

But again, we're talking about books and the differences between POD and offset, and how these things are logistically moved from place to place and what kind of an impact that makes on the environment. So, you know, we'd be remiss not to talk about that little component from the printer to the actual DCs or the distribution centers before they then even get to the bookstores themselves. 

Lauren: Yeah. There was a story a couple of years ago, and I forgot about this until you just mentioned that. I think it was 2022, early 2022, there were two titles from Penguin Random House that their entire print run of these books were… part of a handful of shipping containers fell off a ship on their way overseas. 

Matt: Which is not uncommon by the way. 

Lauren: No. But these two, for these two titles, they had to push back the release dates for them because the entire print run of these books is lost at sea and they had to go back and reprint them and then reship them and do all that process over again. So they had to push the release dates back.

Matt: Which, you know, if your release date has to get pushed back, at least that's a cooler story to give. Potentially the flip side of that is a whole container of books just fell into the ocean. 

Lauren: Right.

Matt: It's like, okay. 

Lauren: Yeah. Like, great. 

Matt: So yeah, anyways, in that chain of logistics – 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: – just that piece I wanted to make sure was noted. But yeah, I mean you get all the way to the bookstore, what's not sold. What do they do with that? They have to turn around and ship those to various different places. Ultimately, there is a certain deadline where something becomes what's called dead stock, and that's just going to go to get pulped, destroyed, recycled, whatever that might happen. So the life of a book could start and end with it being pulp. 

Lauren: Yeah. Which – 

Matt: And in many cases does.

Lauren: Yes. Which I feel like it's something that a lot of people don't, don't necessarily recognize when it comes to the publishing industry is what happens to unsold books. Because - this is another rabbit hole that we don't have to go down – 

Matt: We don’t. 

Lauren: – but I love the rabbit hole. This is one of those arguments that I have with people all the time about like, the sanctity of books and stuff. And people are like, oh my, like, you know, if it's – if it's a rare collectible edition, if it's an old book that is out of print, if it's something that is a work, genuinely a work of art, but if it's something that you could go right now into a Barnes & Noble and buy a copy of it off the shelves, I don't care if you rip it up. I don't care if you dog ear your pages. I don't care if you write all over it. I don't care if you cut it in half. 

There was this whole viral post a few years ago because some guy was reading a really big book and he cut it in half so that he could bring it on the train with him. And people were absolutely outraged by this. 

Matt: I mean, that is stupid, but whatever. It’s his book, he paid for it. 

Lauren: I mean, yes, buy an ebook at that point. But right, right. Like I don't believe in preserving the sanctity of books. If it's your book that you own and it's not an irreplaceable book, do whatever you want with it. Because you don't understand what happened to these books that don't get sold. When people act like books are like a precious commodity that oh my god, you bent the pages on that book, how dare you. There's like 50% odds that if that book hadn't been purchased by somebody and was still sitting on a shelf in a bookstore the end of its life would be to have the cover ripped off of it and then the rest of the book pulped for waste. Like…

Matt: Okay I see where you're going with this I was struggling to connect the dots here for a minute, but. So yeah I mean the sanctity of books I think that's a whole nother topic but I get what you're saying.

Lauren: Sorry. 

Matt: I think what you were trying to say was, you know, at least it was purchased and somebody is doing something with it. Even if we don't agree with how they're treating it – 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: – at least the book was purchased and it's not going to be sitting in a warehouse at some point awaiting its fate on death row. 

Lauren: Maybe that's a nicer way of saying it. 

Matt: Got it. Okay. 

Lauren: I would much rather see a book that was well read and well loved – 

Matt: Sure, yup. Okay. and shows the signs of it than a book that was printed, never opened, never sold – 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: And then just destroyed. 

Matt: Agreed.

Lauren: Absolutely. Pulping, if you're not familiar with it, it's shredding the books and then breaking down the paper fibers by mixing them with water and chemicals, filtering out all the ink, glue, whatever, and then reusing some of that pulp for lower grade paper products.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: It's a recycling process, but it is also still a process that produces like – 

Matt: Waste. 

Lauren: – carbon emission waste and other such things.

Matt: Yeah, so again, it's that it's almost a double edged sword, right? 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: At least the paper and stuff is getting recycled. However, if it was sold and being read or in somebody's bookshelf to begin with, we wouldn't have to recycle it because even recycling creates waste. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: It's less waste, but it's still waste. So again, this idea that printing books to the tune of tens of thousands, if not more, that may not ever get in the hands of a reader is just wasteful. 

Lauren: Yes.

Matt: It's a feather in the cap, a notch on the belt, whatever you will for print-on-demand, where books are only printed as they're sold. So it is going to somebody who bought the book and presumably will do whatever they want with it, read it, refer back to it, put it on their shelf, whatever that might be. But again, it's not part of a palette of books that are sitting there that may never see the light of day. And in fact, just turn around and go back into a wasteful process. 

Lauren: Right.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Right. This is the difference between the estimating of, okay, we're going to, we're going to roll the dice and hope that this book sells 10,000 copies. Is that what Justin's goal is with Sponsor Magnet is 10,000 book sales in six months? Is that the challenge that he's doing? 
Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So this is a great example that's happening in real time right now. Justin Moore is selling his book, his new book, Sponsor Magnet. He set a challenge for himself that he's going to sell 10,000 copies of this book in the first six months. And he is very actively doing this online right now. We'll share it in the show notes. It looks really cool. He's doing a great job with this campaign. 

The difference between the traditional publishing model of how this would go and the more environmentally friendly print-on-demand model of this is that Justin could have said, I am gonna roll a dice on this and do a 10,000 copy print run of this book. And my goal is to sell all 10,000 copies of it. And if I don't, whatever's left over at the end, I have to figure out what to do with this waste.

Matt: Now, before you go on, let's also point out here that if Justin was going to do this in an offset fashion and was confident in his 10,000 number and was still publishing it himself to a degree, Justin is on the hook to pay for those 10,000 copies upfront. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Because no offset printer is going to print your books for you on consignment, on loan. So 10,000 copies of Justin's book is probably going to be around, you know, offset maybe $4 a unit. That's a $40,000 investment upfront, not counting the shipping fees and things and some of the other…

Lauren: And the storage. 

Matt: Yeah. So –

Lauren: Inventory storage, stuff like that. 

Matt: That's right. Anyways. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: But go ahead. 

Lauren: Yeah. So now the alternative to that is the print-on-demand model – 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: Where he says, I'm going to sell 10,000 copies of this book. I'm going to use a print-on-demand company to do this. So every time a copy is sold, a copy is going to be printed and shipped out to that person. 

Matt: That's right. 

Lauren: If he sells all 10,000 copies like his goal is great. If he sells 7,000 copies, he does not have an additional 3,000 leftover at the end that is a net loss. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: That he has to now figure out what to do with. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So that's really… And also, as we're talking about this, we're not trying to sit here and be like, look how disgustingly wasteful the traditional publishing industry is because a lot of industries are like this. The publishing industry isn't unique in this production model. 

Matt: No, there's waste everywhere. 

Lauren: Yes. Right. 

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: We're not saying like, oh, this is awful and you should never support this ever. And like, look at how terrible they are. We've talked a lot of negatives about the traditional publishing industry, but it comes from a place of love. Always. 

Matt: I'm going to ghost you on that statement because it does not come from a place of love for me. 

Lauren: It comes from a place of love for me. 

Matt: Boo. Anyways. 

Lauren: Okay. But the point is that we're not trying to say this is a terrible business model. You should never use this and they should all feel ashamed of themselves for it. But we are saying –

Matt: But we're saying better alternatives. 

Lauren: There are better alternatives. And this is a better alternative. And this is also something that we're seeing, I mean, environmentally a better alternative, financially a better alternative. And it is something that we are seeing a shift in the traditional publishing industry. 

Matt: Sure. 

Lauren: We are seeing traditional publishers shift to using more print-on-demand models. 

Matt: Yeah, yeah. 

[27:35]

Matt: Before we go any further though, I think out of my own curiosity, and I think a lot of others, what are some of those other things that potentially happen to books that don't sell in the bookstore? 

Lauren: Sure, great question. 

Matt: Like, where do they go? What happens? Like, they don't just go right to a recycling place.

Lauren: No, no, they don't. There are a few options for them. First of all, if you ever see a print book, if you're ever in like Barnes & Noble and they're doing a 50% off sale. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: Where the books are 50% off or even more than that, those are books they're trying to get rid of. 

Matt: Clearly. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Right. But those are books that like, you know, they probably, the paper, they were probably hardcovers – Barnes & Noble does, I think, twice a year, they do a 50% off hardcover sale. Those are books that either the paperbacks are about to come out – 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: – or they have already come out and the hardcover print run didn't sell through. The retail, the retail discount on books is usually 40%. So that's why I'm saying anything that you see that the discount is over 40% on it is something that at this point, they've said we're not going to make a profit off of this. Now we just want to make anything off of it. And not have to deal with shipping it back. 

Matt: Yeah. 
Lauren: We'd rather just get it out of our inventory. There are instances where the publisher might say, maybe not with Barnes & Noble, but maybe with like, some indie bookstores or something, where the publisher might just say like, you know, whatever, like don't bother returning the three copies of this print book. 

Matt: Sure.

Lauren: Like just, you know, it's not like it's 50 copies that you're returning. Just keep those three. We'll credit your account for them, whatever. And then the bookstore might say, okay, we’ll sell those at 50% because then we're still making money on those. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: You know, it's better than doing a complete loss on it. So that's something that you might see. You also, you'll see books that are, they're called remainders. There aren't a whole lot of stores that refer to them as remainders, but that's what they're called within the industry. That are sold wholesale by other distributors. So it's something that like, you know, let's say a bunch of books are to be returned to Penguin Random House and they're like, we don't want these. Like we…we're done with these titles. There's nothing to do with them. We don't have anywhere to sell them. There are third party wholesalers that will take those and bookstores can go buy inventory from them and get them at a discount. 

Matt: Gotcha. 

Lauren: And then they can sell them at their own store at a discount. And because they bought them for less than the list price, discount. So that's another way that books, unsold books are given kind of new life. 

Matt: That's fun. 

Lauren: Yeah. But yeah, you know, there's just… I understand that this is just part and parcel for any kind of product that's being produced in the US, but there is a lot of inherently wasted materials…

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: In the publishing industry that has a point. And also, I mean, think about things that…and again, all industries have this kind of waste. Think about things like the actual packaging material. If you're packaging up these books to ship out to individual retailers all over the country, you are packaging all of those books. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And shipping them out to all those different places. You also have things like promotional materials like ARCs. ARCs you are legally not allowed to sell. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: Any single copy that you find of an ARC has listed on it that it is illegal to sell this. That does not stop people from doing it – 

Matt: Sure. 

Lauren: – but you're doing it illegally is the point. But if you can't sell those, the only thing that you can do is keep them or recycle them. 

Matt: yeah. 

Lauren: Those are just absolutely waste. And look, I'm not saying that they're a waste to make. I have many ARCs that I cherish the fact that I have these. So I'm not saying that they're bad, but they are still wasteful. 

Matt: Well yeah. They're not - I think I take a little bit of argument with that. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: It doesn't matter, ARCs being wasteful or not, I think is irrelevant to this conversation to a degree, but ARCs have their place in the publishing ecosystem. They're there for a reason. And so yes, you could potentially avoid printed ARCs, but then again, maybe not, right? Like if you're gonna send ARCs out, there may be people that you're sending them to that they don't want an ebook, they want it in print. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: For a good reason. And so that is what it is. And yes, I think people like you and I might have a different reverence for an ARC copy of a book that we really, really love or something like that. So I think that's different. But yeah, I think the case for the traditional sort of publishing printing and logistical model around books is pretty obvious as to why it's not sustainable. Not only in its composition, but in actual long-term sustainability. It's not going to be possible. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: And inherently in that, it's obvious as to why for the most part, print-on-demand is a better model. But I just wanted to run through real quick. We talked about a lot of the environmental impacts of traditional publishing, you know, and more importantly, their printing practices and logistical supply chain and how they get things to and from. But again, the obvious is print-on-demand. It's only printed when somebody purchases. So you are not over printing and creating all that waste and those processes and those, those transportation paths where you're creating a much larger carbon footprint. But again, there's other ways that is reduced when you use print-on-demand. And again, cutting down on that supply chain potentially is a huge help. 

I think when you combine the world of digital and print and you encourage a digital-first strategy for how you're publishing and printing, I think that's when you really start to optimize the sustainability factor of what we're doing in the publishing industry. You have something noted here where you saw some sources reference ebooks and audiobooks as waste-free alternatives. I have seen that too, and it's not accurate. You're right. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: It is probably a much more waste free alternative to, to print books, but now you're getting into the argument of print versus digital. And I don't know if I want to go down that path today either. I'll have to put my ghost sheet on, but I will say that you're right. It's not accurate. And obviously there are things that go into creating and delivering a digital copy of a book, but yes, there's significantly less waste. So, you know, again, the argument there, I think, becomes more of an argument of print versus digital. And I don't think that's one that I really want to give a lot of credence to as somebody who does not like digital and loves print. But that argument is there. 

Lauren: I've been pitching an episode for a year where Matt and I debate print books, ebooks, and audiobooks. So if you're interested in that episode, let us know. Help me out here. 

Matt: Yeah, well, yeah. 

Lauren: But yes. Yes. 

Matt: To summarize, when you're using a digital printing method, forget about a digital format. But digital printing is print-on-demand. That's what we're talking about here. And again, to summarize, there's less setup and overrun wastes, right? Like, so overruns meaning you're printing more than needed. Bulk shipping from warehouse to warehouse, often from China, other places, does not exist anymore if you're doing print-on-demand digital printing, the level of storage facilities and the carbon offset or their imprint from running those storage facilities is drastically reduced if not zeroed out right, you know, long-term storage of these things does not exist, it's zeroed out because you're using print-on-demand. 

And then again, obviously this idea where unsold books and units are run through any various number of channels to eventually end up either stripped of its cover and sold for a dollar on the street corners in New York or recycled, pulped, and hopefully used for something else, but nonetheless creating some more waste there. So I think a lot of that was probably obvious for some people. Some of it's not so obvious, but I think where we probably want to try and wrap this up is it's easy for us to sit here and say, oh, we're a B Corp, practice sustainability in almost everything we do, at least to a better level than other people out there as also noted by B Corp standards, B Labs and these other things. But it's easy for us to sit up here and say that and do that, but as an author or even a buyer, but specifically as an author, how could they potentially support these sustainability efforts? They're sitting there right now listening to this and going, I didn't actually know a lot of this and this is kind of not cool and like, how can I avoid contributing to this waste? Like what are some things that we could, we could share with them? 

[35:40]

Lauren: Well, the obvious one is gonna be published with Lulu.

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: Obviously. 

Matt: I was trying to avoid the on-the-nose sales pitch there, but there you go. 

Lauren: That’s okay. I'll take that one.

Matt: There you go. 

Lauren: But realistically it's print your books on demand instead of using bulk or offset print runs. 

Matt: That's right. 

Lauren: Which is not to say that you have to eliminate those entirely. I understand the benefit for some people of doing bulk print runs. I understand people that say like, but I actually like, it's more cost effective for me. I don't know if I agree with that necessarily. We've done episodes on that, where we've talked about whether or not it is more cost effective for you. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: To do offset printing. 

Matt: But it also depends on what your definition of bulk is, right? 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: If you're talking about an individual author, their definition of a bulk run might be 500. And that's still well within the realm of affordable pricing for print-on-demand. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: And you can not contribute to the over-print and overruns that are out there. 

Lauren: Yes, absolutely. But if that is something that you're interested in doing, if that is something that you're really like, no, but I do want to do that, then plan ahead and plan accordingly for that. Use a pre-order campaign to get a better understanding of exactly how many books you're gonna need –

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – from that print run. Or do a crowdfunding Kickstarter campaign or something like that. And we're not saying that you have to order exactly the right amount. If you sell 493 copies and you want to order 600 copies so that you still have…

Matt: Sure. Yeah.

Lauren: Some inventory on hand for yourself. Sure, great. Do that. No one's saying that you shouldn't have some inventory on hand for yourself. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: But instead of doing a 10,000 copy print run and hoping for the best, plan ahead, have a better estimate of what your goal is. Best case scenario, you sell through your print run –

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: – and have to do another print run.

Matt: Agreed, but you can also set up a dual distributorship type of model where, yes, maybe if you are somebody who's going to be fortunate enough to sell 5,000, 10,000 copies upfront, great, but also set your title up for print-on-demand because afterwards you're not going to want to do another run of 10,000 or 5,000. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: At that point, you can switch over to a print-on-demand model for the rest of your sale. The sales cycle for a book is, if you're lucky, three to six months, and that's if you're really applying the marketing and publicity juice to it. Outside of that your sales cycle, your amount of units per month that you're going to be moving per week is going to drastically dwindle down. And so selling through that initial run, great, but then switch over to a POD model and let the rest of those sales come through POD. 

Lauren: Which is a model that is used in the traditional publishing industry as well. 

Matt: Yep, sure. To a degree. 

Lauren: So that's not unheard of, but it's not a bad idea by any stretch of the imagination. 

Matt: Yeah. Because if you can afford it, price is the thing and you can sell 5,000 or more copies in that first run, then you should consider offset potentially. I would say it's still better to try and do something digital from an environmental impact, but if cost is a concern and you can afford to get a big run printed upfront and you know you can sell through them, okay, roll the dice. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: That's fine, because you're gonna get a better per unit price, of course. And we won't even go down the road of quality there. It's hit or miss, but it doesn't matter. Otherwise, yeah, you should definitely look at either a dual strategy or just sticking with POD. 

Lauren: Yeah. What else? 

Matt: I think the obvious two for us would be the conversation around selling direct. As an author, you know, having a way to sell direct, besides the benefits that we normally talk about, like keeping your customer data and profiting much more from the sale of your products. Again, you're supporting a POD model, a print-on-demand model, and you're not feeding into some of these other massive retailers like the Zon, where there is nothing environmentally friendly about what they do. At all, no matter what you see or read. 

There may be tiny, tiny, tiny little pockets within their organization where there is some sustainability that's being introduced. Like, I know they have some electric delivery vehicles and things, but that does not offset all of the other harm that they do in the world. So again, having a direct sales solution, that is an extra added benefit. That you are not feeding into that machine that is ultimately working against the sustainability efforts of a lot of other people in the industry. So helping to make publishing a more sustainable industry by doing things like what we're talking about, including selling direct. 

Lauren: Yeah, and hand in hand with that, and as part of your direct sales strategy probably, is having that transparency with your customers. As we have more conscientious consumers, like we talked about, there's nothing wrong with telling your customers like yeah, I'm doing it this way because it is more environmentally friendly. It is more sustainable. It's better for me. It's better for you. It's better for the environment. We're selling books, print-on-demand, direct from our website. You can get them here or learn more about this here. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: People appreciate that transparency. 

Matt: Agreed. No notes. 

Lauren: Nope, definitely not. And we kind of already said this, but offer digital-first formats as well as print formats. I'm not saying don't offer print formats. I'm just saying also have digital-first solutions.

Matt: Boo. 

Lauren: You know. 

Matt: Why not have print first and digital second? 

Lauren: Well, sure, fine. 

Matt: Where did this sheet come from, by the way, that I've just put on my head twice now that I'm not sure where the origins of it are. 

Lauren: Well, the bad news is that it was the sheet that I bought to hang over the lights in this room – 

Matt: It better not be covered in cat hair. 

Lauren: – and then took down. But the good news is that I took them - I took it home and washed it. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: And then brought it back in. So it is probably as clean as it's going to get. It's not covered in cat – 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: You'll be fine. I mean, you haven't started sneezing or breaking out in hives. So I think you're okay. Whatever your cat allergy is, I don't think it's gotten to you. 

Matt: That's good. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. You would definitely know. That’s for sure. 

Lauren: I think we would all know. 

Matt: All right. So that's episode 62, sustainability in publishing. 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: Where you'll find it, where you want, why it matters, what a B Corp is. 

Lauren: Yeah. And why we care about it and why you should, too. 

Matt: Yep. Yeah, I like it. I think we're done. 

Lauren: I think so, too. Hopefully we answered some questions that you had about that. And if you didn't have any questions about it and you made it this far into this episode. Amazing. Wow. Love you. Thank you so much. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in. If you have any questions, comments, concerns, feedback, anything you want to argue with me and Matt about something, you know, we're always two seconds away from a fight. So, you know, feel free to leave a comment on Lulú social media or emails at podcast@lulu.com. We'd love to talk to you and we'd love to hear what you want to hear more about. And until then, see you next week. Thanks for listening. 

Matt: Later.