Matt: Welcome back everybody.

Lauren: Wait, I'm not recording.

[Intro]

Lauren: Okay now I'm recording. 

Matt: Are you sure? 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: You are recording. 

Lauren: I am recording. I literally - 

Matt: I wouldn’t know because I don't have any headphones. 

Lauren: I had hit... you wouldn't know even if you did have headphones. 

Matt: That's probably true as well. Okay. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: But you're sure you're recording. 

Lauren: I am definitely recording. 

Matt: Can you see on her... is she recording? Okay.

Sarah: I don't have my glasses, but yes, yes. 

Matt: I'm gonna assume that you're telling the truth. Welcome back everybody to another episode of… Hopefully we're recording another episode of Publish & Prosper. This would be episode number 60, the big six zero, so almost me. I'm ten years away from it, but…and feeling it today for sure. 

Lauren: I'm so sorry. 

Matt: Just kidding. Today's actually a really fun day because we have, I finally have somebody else to talk to in here, which is gonna be a lot. Yeah, I woke up spicy today. 

Lauren: I didn't think that through all the way when I said, let's have a guest on the podcast. 

Matt: Well, you know. Hey, Sarah didn't know this either, but this is an interview for a job. 

Lauren: Oh great. 

Matt: Just kidding. 

Lauren: Matt's been trying to replace me since day two. 

Matt: Are you kidding? For the last five years. It's impossible to find somebody who likes Disney as much as me that I can keep around and have fun with. 

Lauren: That's true. 

Matt: Yeah, so there you go. 

Lauren: That's true, all right. 

Matt: We have Sarah Franklin with us, and Sarah is our PR expert here at Lulu. Her official title is Public Relations Manager, I believe, correct? 

Sarah: Yes. 

Matt: Yeah, Senior Public Relations Manager, whatever, something like that. And she also spent a lot of time as a publicist in the world of authors and books, working for companies like Smith Publicity. So today we're gonna talk about, obviously, book publicity, how to market your book using these types of activities. 

And Sarah is going to share a lot of her personal insight and expertise with us. Because, quite frankly, I think people get tired of hearing me and Lauren drone on about Disney, Taylor Swift unfortunately, and some other things. So we're going to ask Sarah a bunch of questions and drive her crazy for a little while and hopefully bring some value to you guys, the five listeners that are out there. 

Lauren: I think we're at least up to six by now. 

Matt: Think so? 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: If I don't count my mom, then we might still be a five. 

Sarah: Yeah, my mom's going to be added to this list. 

Matt: Okay, so we're at six. 

Lauren: Maybe seven. 

Matt: And if Sarah's husband knows any better, he's listening, too. 

Sarah: Yeah, he’s listening. 

Matt: So seven. 

Lauren: We got it. 

Matt: Scott, you better figure out how to work YouTube. I'm just saying. Uh, yeah. Anyways, when we talk about PR, though, let's just be very specific. It's a facet of marketing, obviously. PR, public relations, however you want to define it. And it's often, by the way, associated with things like you know, more traditional avenues, press releases, earned media opportunities, you know, things where, um, you don't typically associate it with paid marketing opportunities, but it's, it's - these days could be a very wide definition. How would you define PR or how would you kind of explain to somebody what PR is versus just like run of the mill digital marketing? 

Sarah: Yeah, that's a great question. So PR is anything that is earned. So if you open a magazine and on one side you see an advertisement for something, there's complete control around that. There's…somebody provided the image, they provided the copy, any context, any call to action. That is controlled and it is not PR. That's straight up advertising. 

Maybe on the other side of the magazine, on the other page, there's an article written about a specific topic for the audience who subscribes to that magazine. And if there’s somebody in that article who’s quoted as an expert, that is PR. It's basically exposure that you can earn from your credentials. 

Matt: I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with the fact that you could potentially describe it as controllable content versus non-controllable.

Lauren: Yeah, actually, that is a really good way of framing it. 

Matt: I'm just kidding. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: And an ominous way of framing it. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: I think it's actually a good point though, that you should be prepared for the fact that if you are going to also launch down the road of putting a lot of effort into traditional PR and publicity around your book launch or other facets of your business, which you should be prepared for the fact that when you get or gain earned media, you don't have a lot of control around that. 

Sarah: Right. 

Matt: Typically, they're gonna pull from whatever assets you have that you've put out there in the public, right?

Sarah: Right. 

Matt: Like your press release or your website or things like that, which is why it's super important to keep those things up to date and accurate. But, you know, be prepared for the fact that you didn't pay for that. They decided they wanted to talk about you. And so you do lose a little bit of control, but for the most part, I think we would find that that's a good thing, so. 

Sarah: Yeah, I mean, there's a saying in publicity that there's no bad publicity, but it's uncomfortable if you are exposed in a way that you don't want. 

Matt: Sure, yeah. 

Sarah: And you also, as you know, if we're speaking to authors directly, like you have to be ready for it too. If you engage and try to go out into the world of media and get PR, you really have to be ready and comfortable with talking about your expertise or your book. 

Matt: That's a great point too. Yeah. I think that a lot of people go into marketing their books, their book launch process, and even PR activities, and sometimes are not prepared for the fact that they will get asked to come on three different podcasts. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: They're like, oh crap, okay, and then they gotta kinda readjust and reset and figure out like, how do I get comfortable with being on a podcast - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: - or being on, you know, some sort of video interview, or being asked to come to an event and get on stage, like that's a big one for people. So that's a good point. You should be prepared for those things. Yeah. 

Sarah: I mean, what is it like for an introvert to be on a podcast? Do you have any experience? 

Matt: Well, I'll tell you the way that I'm comfortable with it is that I have total control over this thing. 

Sarah: Okay. 

Matt: That's a joke too. I don't have any control over Lauren. Obviously anybody who's listened to more than ten minutes of this podcast would know that. So that’s a very good question. 

Lauren: No, but you trust that I have total control over this. 

Sarah: Right. 

Matt: Well, that's - yeah. You know, I think for introverts, which I think a lot of creative people are, what I would say is that as an introvert, it's completely different when I'm just having a conversation with one or two people - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: - that might still be broadcast to ten other people or 100 other people or 400 other people, or even when I get on stage and do presentations, it just feels different. Because I just feel like I'm talking to like one person. 

Sarah: Right. 

Matt: It's hard to explain. So it's actually not as bad, I think, if you're an introvert and you do find yourself in a situation where your PR efforts are paying off and you have to get on a stage or you have to get interviewed. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: I would say it's actually not as bad as you probably think it is. You should still be 100% prepared. 

Sarah: Right. 

Matt: I think part of it too is I always feel confident in what I'm talking about… so I'm less scared to get on a stage or on a microphone because I don't know, I just feel confident in what I'm talking about. I think that helps. 

Lauren: Yeah, I think that makes a huge difference. I mean, even just in like the podcast episodes that we do, like I know I always feel better about coming and doing episodes that it's a topic that I'm like, I could talk about this in my sleep. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: That just immediately I'm like, okay, this - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: - not that I get nervous about doing podcast episodes at all anymore, but it's always just that little bit easier when I'm like, this is something that I know like the back of my hand. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: It's so easy to talk about it, so. 

Matt: So, what do your bracelets say? 

Lauren: Oh, I wasn't sure if we were going to do this today, honestly. 

Matt: Why not? 

Lauren: Oh, I just didn't know. 

Matt: I should’ve let Sarah ask you. 

Lauren: I thought about bringing one for Sarah. 

Matt: Yeah. How rude. 

Lauren: Well, I won't give her any of these. 

Matt: We have a guest and you didn’t bring her a bracelet? 

Lauren: I know. I'm so sorry. And these are - 

Sarah: She gave me a bracelet that says Lulu on it that I wear quite often

Lauren: I did. I did. 

Sarah: I don’t have it on today though. 

Lauren: Maybe I'll make some more for London Book Fair.

Matt: Yeah, well. 

Lauren: But yeah, these are kind of grim today, sorry. It’s I Hate it Here, which is not accurate for here. It's more about the state of the world in general. 

Matt: See? See what I deal with? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: It's fine. You're on Your Own Kid, and This is the End.

Matt: Wow. 

Lauren: Wow, they are actually really grim today. 

Sarah: That’s a vibe today. Major vibe. 

Lauren: Oh No. 

Matt: Sarah had no idea she was coming on the Doom and Gloom podcast. 

Lauren: I also have a bracelet that says Doom and Gloom. 

Matt: The Elder Emo Hour. 

Lauren: I do. 

Matt: Oh my god. I'm sorry, Sarah. 

Sarah: Publish, Prosper, and Plummet. 

Lauren: Wait, that was incredible, but I also don't wanna move past the elder emo hour. That's my new podcast name. 

Matt: Oh my gosh. Well, actually -

Sarah: I’d watch that. 

Matt: - that'd probably be pretty good. I would watch it too. 

Lauren: Could be fun. 

Matt: Yeah. It'd be fun in the same way you watch a train wreck. 

Lauren: Yeah, that's fun. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: All right. 

Matt: Let's jump in here. 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: Let's ask Sarah some, let's make Sarah uncomfortable. 

Lauren: All right, great. 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: Well, I don't wanna do that. I want to make my guests feel comfortable. 

Matt: You already have made her uncomfortable. Let's just keep going. 

Sarah: Stop it. She's fine. 

[8:53]

Lauren: Well, okay. So I do want to kind of acknowledge that as we're talking through this, there are two pretty different approaches to PR and earned media and all that. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: That would be authors that want to go about doing it themselves, doing the work themselves, whatever they have to do, and authors that want to hire a publicist. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: So do you have any insight into like…kind of the difference between them, just a super high level difference - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: - to make sure everyone knows what we're talking about as we're doing this.

Sarah: I mean, imagine if you are a media contact, let's just say a local television, and somebody reaches out to you as a professional publicist, rather than an individual living in that city. There's just a level of credibility that's there. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Sarah: That's really the biggest difference. I mean, essentially somebody could do their own PR. I don't say that - I mean, it's something that you absolutely could put together a plan, and I know a lot of our authors have and have been successful with it. But there is a little bit of credibility. 

Lauren: So it's really up to like, the author and what they know their strengths are. 

Sarah: Yes. 

Lauren: Pretty much. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. And if you're doing it as an author, you need to plan a lot and you're gonna make mistakes, just get used to it. 

Matt: We've done an episode around what you would need to do to be your own publicist. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: And there's a lot of work that goes into it. And I'm sure Lauren will link to that episode. 

Lauren: I will. 

Matt: At the bottom of the show notes 

Lauren: It’s episode number thirteen. 

Matt: There you go. 

Lauren: Linked in - it’ll be linked in the show notes. 

Matt: A long time ago, lucky thirteen. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. Well. 

Lauren: And now we're at episode 60. Wow.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: But I think there's a lot to be said there for for the idea of credibility or authority or validation where a local news outlet or whatever it might be you're getting two sort of solicitations. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: One from a publicist and one from somebody who's like hey, I just wrote this book. It's not that the, the individual can't have success with it, and we've talked about this, and it can happen. But yeah, if I think a publicist carries, obviously, a level of authority that if you can afford it, it's genuinely worth it. It's just like editors. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: We talk about editing all the time. Like these are things where if you can afford to do them, you should absolutely do them. If you cannot afford to do them, then absolutely do your research on how to be extremely effective - 

Sarah: Right. 

Matt: - doing these things on your own, but where you can afford to squeeze these things in, you should do that. And I think a publicist is, depending on the goals for your book, a publicist is one of those things where you absolutely should spend the money if you can afford it and some of your goals for this book align with the need for having a publicist, right? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah, for sure. 

Matt: If your goal for this book is it's just a lead magnet for your business, then you don't need a publicist, right? 

Sarah: Right. 

Matt: And you can probably figure out the few things you need to do, a press release and some other things on your own. If the goal for this book is to reach as many readers as possible in the genre of, you know, let's say something to do with sustainability and something like that, then yeah, you're probably gonna wanna hire a publicist to get you on as many podcasts and TV shows and news outlets as you can, where the topic is something like sustainability or environmentally friendly practices or things like that. 

Sarah: Yeah, there's also like - there are rules of engagement that publicists understand. How many times to follow up or when to follow up, when to leave it be, that kind of stuff. What to provide, what is your client gonna need to be prepared, and what is the media gonna need to be prepared? 

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: So that's always easier for me to wonder approached by a professional. 

Matt: Yeah. Is there a good time to start thinking about, like at what stage in your writing and or publishing process - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: - should somebody start thinking about publicity? Are they starting the publicity plan around the same time they're starting their pre-marketing campaigns or is this something that you really push a little closer to launch? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: Or when should they start thinking about that? 

Sarah: You know, it all lines up, and you mentioned this, with the goals for the book. So when you're sitting down to put together even your outline for the book, if you have lofty goals of reaching a wide audience, then you should absolutely start thinking about it then. So let's say, I just, you know, I know my audience here, let's say you're writing a book about going to Disney. And for the record, I'm not a Disney adult.

Matt: Boooooo. 

Lauren: We let her hang out with us anyway. 

Sarah: But if you're writing a book about Disney, you need to think about when you're gonna launch it. When are the popular times to go to Disney? Maybe the spring when the weather is nice. So do you wanna launch it at that time? You need to be thinking about who is gonna buy this book, where they're gonna discover it, how they're gonna discover it. So parent blogs - the data shows it's mostly women over a certain age are the book buyers in the family. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: So as you put together this book, you should really have your audience in mind. And then that's a great time. When you come across a podcast that talks about vacations or something, jot that down, start your spreadsheet, put together the list of places that you think would benefit from showing their audience the book. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: So to answer your question, it's really at the beginning. But when you start thinking about outreach and publicity, I would say you would want to start your outreach six months before publication. Because typically the media has an appetite for new releases and they want to showcase books that are, you know, they're not out in the world yet or forthcoming, you know, newly released books. Everybody here has watched the news or something on YouTube or TV or whatever that's like, okay, here's our guest, author of such and such book coming out in May 2025 or whatever. 

So that is gonna be something that, you know, envision that, back it up to when you think you might be needing to reach out to these outlets - which is months in advance - and then, you know, follow up with them along the way. So six months, I'd say. If you are launching a book next week, it's not too late, but get going. 

Matt: You're behind the curve. 

Sarah: Yeah, you're behind the curve.

Lauren: Yeah, I mean, we did just do the episode also on pre-order campaigns - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: - where we made that same point that if you're, if you're waiting until launch to market your book - 

Sarah: Right. 

Lauren: - you missed the boat. 

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting because I would not have thought six months in advance for media contacts. That's good to know. You know what I mean? The idea that you would go potentially on another podcast show, whatever that might be and talk about your book pre-launch in more cases than post-launch or in as many cases as post-launch, I hadn't thought about that, but that makes some pretty good sense. Especially considering what you're writing, again, what the goals are for the book, things like that. So that's good to know. Yeah. 

Lauren: Within that timeline, within that idea of, you know, you're starting to think about your publicity efforts six months out, everything, if you're planning on hiring a publicist, where in that timeline would you start to shift to that point where you're like, okay, I need to start reaching out to people I need to…

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: Or what does that even look like? How do you go about hiring a publicist? 

Sarah: Yeah, great question. So the internet is a great place to start and also a very daunting and scary place to start. So you might wanna begin with reputable book industry people who are connected to, like if you follow Jane Friedman or somebody. Who does she talk about when it comes to book publicity? Look at your publisher, who are they talking about when it comes to book publicity? 

Make a short list of firms and set up some sales calls with them. And then you're going to want to ask them a bunch of questions. You will want to ask them, do they have staff publicists who have promoted books in your genre? How does your budget fit into what they can provide for you? And then, you know, you're going to establish this relationship of trust along the way, whereas like, you know, they're not going to promise anything to you. And we can talk about that a little bit too, but you want to really be wary of anybody who's got, I can do this, I can do that. I can get you on Good Morning America within a month. You know, don’t - those are some red flags, I would say. 

Timing-wise, to get back to your question, if you're calling people six months ahead of time and researching publicity firms or book publicists, you might be independent contractors, six months is a great time to start that process and looking for them. Because in their minds, they're thinking, okay, I wanna send out some advanced reader copies of this book. Advanced reader copies need to be sent out three months ahead of time to major outlets. 

Or there's some timelines that they may be able to talk with you about the book release too. So, you know, the book release date can shift if you need it to, which most of them do. A lot of times as you get close to launch, especially if you're planning six months out. But yeah, I hope that answers the question. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Sarah: I'm rambling there. Sorry. 

Lauren: No, no, no. It does. It does. It gave me like ten more questions too - 

Sarah: Okay.

Lauren: - but not in a bad way. 

Sarah: Okay, yeah. 

Lauren: I just like, wanted to keep like, I have so many more questions about it. So like how long, like what does the process work in terms of like… Like, are you hiring somebody for like a six month contract? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: Are you hiring somebody like, you know, until you've achieved this goal? Like, how does it, how does it work actually hiring? 

Sarah: Publicity takes time. So using the same example of like, okay, I'm going to reach out to people who cover Disney in March and it's December and I'm doing that. You reach out to them. It's, it might be crickets, but who knows that producer or podcast host or magazine editor, they may have flagged your email and just dumped it in a folder of like, things to visit in two months.

So there's a process by which there's the outreach push and pull, there's follow up. I would say you would wanna give it at least two solid months. If your budget does not allow for that, talk to a publicity firm about what they can provide you in a shorter timeline. When I did it, we even had a three week jumpstart program where we would give it like a blitz and then all the follow up emails that came in, we turn them over to the author. Because that's what their budget allows for.

Lauren: Sure. 

Sarah: It's a starting point. 

[18:21] 

Matt: So when you're approaching publicists or any publicist, what are some of the things that if I'm an author - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: - I need to be able to provide that publicist for them to get started?

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: What are some of the things I need to be prepared to hand over? 

Sarah: It is a process of discovery I have found for a lot of authors when they get to that point. Because what happens is they might get like a questionnaire or they might get hit with questions during that sales call that they've never thought about. So what they need to be able to provide and to also understand that it's a very collaborative process, right? 

So you need to be able to answer some serious questions like who is this book for? And let me tell you what the answer is not: everybody. Your book is not for everybody. You need to be able to answer who the ideal audience is because it's not like a publicist can take a book, push it out to the world, and everybody you know, is gonna be like, this is it, this one for me. So they need to have a narrow audience. And I'll tell you, the more niche, the better. One of my favorite - 

Matt: Hold on a second. What did you just say? 

Sarah: They need to have a narrow audience. 

Matt: Did you say niche? 

Sarah: Niche. 

Matt: Okay, thank you. 

Sarah: Why? Niche? Stop it. 

Matt: No, no, niche. You said it right. 

Sarah: Niche. 

Lauren: Niche. 

Matt: No, it's not niche. 

Sarah: I was a French major. I can say niche. 

Lauren: I say niche. 

Sarah: Or niche. 

Matt: But everybody heard it first. She said niche. 

Sarah: When I’m speaking to my fellow Southerners, let’s talk niche. 

Matt: Thank you.

Lauren: First of all, I just recently learned that you spoke French at all. That's awesome. 

Sarah: It is niche. But yeah, if you have a... 

Matt: In France, it's niche. 

Sarah: Well, I have heard actually people say it's niche. 

Lauren: Well, that I think we can all agree is a hard no. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Oh boy. 

Sarah: Yeah, but the more niche the audience, the better. Like I was saying one of my favorite books I promoted was about estate planning in the digital world. And I still follow this author and she's just crushing it because it's relevant. It applies to almost - I say everybody is not the audience, but anybody who's going through estate planning. It talks about something that's new and fresh. Like, what do you do with your airline miles? What do you do with your Bitcoin and all this kind of stuff when you die? 

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: I mean, that's, that's new, right? Nobody's really tackled that topic before, but like when you have something - 

Matt: I hadn’t thought about that either.  

Lauren: Yeah.

Sarah: I know. 

Matt: I have a ton of airline miles. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Sarah: These are questions you have to answer. So there are also other questions that can be hard. And some of these are, you know, if you had three to five talking points about your book, what would they be? One of the other things that is a conversation that a publicist will have with an author is, what is special about you and your credentials? And are you willing to get on any kind of media outlet and talk about yourself? Because so many times it's not really the book, it's the person's expertise that matters.

Maybe they have a backstory that's connected to it. How did they get from A to B and become an expert in this topic? That's what the audience wants to know. Are you comfortable with that? Getting back to something we talked about earlier is how would you feel about a negative review? How would you feel about - 

Matt: Right. 

Sarah: - that publicity? 

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: You need to go through that thought exercise and be okay with it. 

Matt: Yeah. 
Sarah: But these are some things you would need to know. It's also ideal when you're researching publicist or publicity companies that you go to them with maybe a list of some ideal outlets. Like what are your top three home run situations?

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: Is it Good Morning America, The Washington Post, whatever it is. But also where are some wins on a local level because most people don't start with that top tier media as far as getting recognition. I would also say that it's good when you're researching publicists to understand what on a weekly basis this give and take looks like. Do you have a weekly call? What kind of time do you have to dedicate to the efforts. 

One of the things that's really great as a nonfiction writer are byline articles. So if you have an article that you've written that would be great to post in an online outlet, print outlet, whatever, as a contributed article, media love this. Because first of all, it's less work they have to do. Second of all, it indirectly promotes your book. So maybe you wanna write about like, let's go back to that same example, what to do with your Bitcoin after you die. That's the title. Kinda click-baity, but it's gonna catch some eyeballs.

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: So, this person is going to write a couple paragraphs about where to start with this. And at the bottom, it's going to say, Matt Briel is the author of such and such. You know, it will say that byline at the bottom. So do you have the time weekly to spend writing those things? And if you don't, don't spend your money on publicity, spend it somewhere else. Because as a publicist, I would go to an author and say, hey, look, I've got this media outlet, they would love an article from you. Can you put together four to 600 words about this topic. They're like, yeah, sure, I can get that to you in two weeks. I'm like, no, you don't understand. I need this tomorrow. So if you don't have the time to do that, sit back and wait until you do. 

[23:09]

Matt: So what could somebody actually expect -

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: - their publicist to do for, so that's a really good point. Like in my head, I'm sitting here thinking, okay, I'm paying this person, couldn't they just crank out that article for me real quick and put my name on it? But it sounds like that's not their job. Like, what are the average things that you would expect a publicist to actually do? Like what should somebody go into this relationship? What should their expectations be? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: Versus what can you definitely say a publicist is not going to do for you? 
Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: Like write a byline. 

Sarah: That's a great question. These expectations -

Matt: I ask all the great questions. Yeah.

Sarah: So Lauren…

Lauren: Yeah. You can talk to me. It's okay. 

Sarah: Yeah. You know, it's, there are things that a publicist should do as far as making you aware of what efforts have been made for your money. So this might look like a weekly report. This might look like a roundup email at the end of every day. Hey, by the way, Lauren, today I reached out to USA Today editor such and such about your book. I didn't hear anything back, but I'm going to follow up in a few days because what happens is if the publicist does not communicate that, the author's like, ah, scam. My money was wasted. 

When in fact, the publicist is probably working very hard because it's not a job where there's a bunch of easy buttons you can just push. So the publicist should make you aware of their efforts. Now, it's not their job to…how do I say this? Don't maybe equate what your publicist is doing to book sales. And that's a very tricky thing to think about. 

Because a lot of people go in and they say, okay, I'm gonna invest this many dollars in book publicity. I expect at least that and more back in sales. That really does not happen very often. Because what happens is you go out and you get exposure. You take that exposure that you get, it builds. You get more exposure than you go to… you know, and you keep working on it. And it may be six to eight months down the line after you've stopped working with that publicist that you get a big break. It may be never that you get a big break. 

So I encourage anybody who's going through this exercise of working with a publicist to look at a bigger picture. Don't look at the typical… this week, I didn't sell any books, but I spent this much on my publicist. You know, they can get you exposure, but your expertise in your book, that should be the moneymaker right there.

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: If you wrote a good book and people need it and you get exposure, things should happen for you. 

Matt: That's what you're paying for - 

Sarah: Yes. 

Matt: - is exposure and awareness of your book or brand. 
Sarah: Yes. 

Matt: You're not paying for book sales. You're not paying for somebody to create social media content for you. You're not paying for somebody to write byline articles for you. You're paying somebody to take your content, put that in front of media outlets and media sources and their Rolodex of context to get you awareness and exposure. It's up to you to take that windfall - 

Sarah Yeah. 

Matt: - of awareness and exposure should you get it. 

Sarah: Yep. 

Matt: And you need to turn that into book sales and you need to turn that into social media content and you need to turn that into more opportunities.

Sarah: I don't think I really answered that question very well. 

Matt: No, that's okay. That's why I was summarizing it. 

Sarah: But to get back to what you said, yeah, you can't expect your publicist - 

Matt; Right. 

Sarah: - to be providing on, they're not the expert. They are the conduit to get you in front of the media. Now if you get on CBC Canada for your big interview and you decide to do it in your bedroom and the bed is unmade in the back, you know, there are things that happen like that, do it right. Do some research. 

And that is actually another thing that you can lean on your publicist for, is not full-fledged media training, but hey, what are some best practices when it comes to being in front of a camera?

Matt: Right. 

Sarah: There are some things in the media, don't wear a shirt that has a bunch of patterns on it. Don't - you know, like put extra makeup, whatever it is that you need to practice with a friend ahead of time. 

Matt: So I should add more makeup to my getup. I'll keep that in mind. 

Lauren: I don't think I have a shade that matches your skin tone, but I'll try to bring some next time just in case. 

Matt: It's called anger.

Sarah: That's funny. 

Matt: There's a full palette of it. You can get it at Sephora. 

Sarah: That's hilarious. 

Matt: I'm just kidding. That's not it. 

Lauren: I also realized as soon as I said that Jen could easily handle this. So I - nevermind. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: More accurately, it's probably called old age, but you know. Whatever. Don't let me market makeup to anybody. 

Sarah: I think that name is brilliant. 

Lauren: Yup. 

Sarah: I would buy it in a heartbeat. 

Lauren: Same. 

Matt: So I asked that question though, because I genuinely would assume that I would be getting some sort of content creation activity from a publicist as well. Right? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: And I never thought about that. So this idea that they are, like you said, for lack of a better term, they're just the conduit. They are the facilitators of taking your content and getting it into the right hands that can take it and expose it to the rest of the world - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: - or a particular audience or genre or, you know, again. So I think it's important for people to understand what they can expect of a publicist, right? And what types of activities. And so like you said, what's really important is they should be getting some sort of summary from their publicist, whether that's daily, weekly, or bi-weekly - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: - about their efforts and what's the results of those efforts. But understanding that when you go into a relationship with a publicist, you have to be prepared. Like you said, identify your audience and your niche. Identify, you know, who is this book really written for? What could they expect to get from this book? But also understanding your publicist is probably gonna ask you for a bunch of other things, content related - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: - that you're gonna need to provide. And at times they may need it pretty quickly and you need to be prepared to create that pretty quickly. So I think that's important for people to know and have the proper expectations and benchmarks going into that. 

Sarah: I think to your point about the content creation too, the old school way of thinking when it comes to media is a publicist is gonna write a press release for me. They're going to put it on the wire and then it's going to be gangbusters for me and my book. And that's not what happens. But your publicist or you, if you're doing your publicity, should go through the exercise of putting together a formal press release. 

Even if you never send that press release, it helps shape and form content that you would use for outreach. Go through the idea of putting together four or five bullets about main ideas and things that come from your book. Maybe there's a quote that you want to use about the topic in your book. And again, the publicist is going to have this expertise in what the media is looking for. Getting back to my point about the media is looking for something about you sometimes, not your book. It's not just about buy my book. You should never put that in a press release. 

The press release can be kind of chopped up into bits, but there are, there's a lot of great information on the internet about how to write a press release, the rules of engagement as far as the length, the tone. 

If you want to use AI to be a starting point for your press release, it probably could give you some fresh ideas as well. So when it comes to that, the publicist might take the information in the release and use it in a way to reach out to the media. So maybe they're pitching you for a radio or a TV interview. What they may do is take those three to five talking points or bullets and just send it to a producer real quick and be like, hey, I have a guest who I think would be good on your midday noon show and here's why. And that producer will look over those points and say yay or nay, but if you are doing this exercise as the author. 

Again, let's get back to that idea of rules of engagement. A publicist knows the attention span of people who are getting literally probably hundreds of emails every day. And if you send seven paragraphs about why they should have you on your show. I guarantee you they're going to open up that email and click delete so fast, you will not have a chance to get on or do anything.

Lauren: Honestly fair. At this point. 

Sarah: I kind of do it too. Yeah. Unless it's Matt sending me a - then I read them all very thoroughly. 

Lauren: If Matt ever sent me a seven paragraph essay, I would assume that I was fired. Like - 

Sarah: Or he’s being held hostage.

Lauren: It's actually for sure a cry for help.

Matt: Okay, I'm gonna skip right over that. But you did say something a little while ago that I wanna touch on. 

[31:19]

Matt: So let's go back to the idea that maybe somebody is gonna do most of their PR on their own. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: Maybe they can't afford a publicist or maybe they just, for whatever reason, they wanna do it and that's fine. So we talked, or you briefly mentioned, you know, the idea that you could use AI to help write a press release. Which I think is great, by the way. I think our audiences have various different ideas and opinions on AI and AI tools, right? But we are of the mindset, we talk about this all the time, that AI is great for productivity hacks. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: This is one of those things I think AI is perfect for. Because in my opinion, press releases should sound a little bit robotic and nerdy and formal. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: And so that's exactly what you get from like ChatGPT or Claude, and so this is where I would say, it's an example of a tool that can help you with your PR activity is using something like ChatGPT or Claude and saying, hey, can you create a press release for me with these specific things in there? 

But what are some other, you know, if I was going to go about doing the PR for my book myself, aside from ChatGPT or Claude or one of these AI tools, what are some other tools that I might want to potentially invest in or look at using whether free or paid? It doesn't matter. But are there some other tools out there that might help me get a little further along in my PR activities, my journey? 

Sarah: Yeah, I wish… I wish there were. One of the benefits of hiring a publicist is somebody is going to do a lot of work for you. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: And there are tools that they use as far as having access to media contacts that might not be floating around on the internet. These are expensive tools to buy and typically unless you are a PR professional you're not gonna buy them. So when it comes to tools I would say there's gonna be a lot of research. If you're doing it on your own here's where I would start. I would look up the top ten books, go to you know whatever bookstore website you want to. Look up the top ten books in your genre. Click on the titles. Look where these people have been featured in the media. What podcasts have they been on? Where have they been highlighted? 

Matt: Do they have a press release out there? 

Sarah: Do they have a press release out there? Look for that and then start making a list. And then if they were featured on a podcast that you think you would be a great fit for as well, go to that podcast website, go down to the footer, click the contact, see who the appropriate contact is. So to answer your questions, there are not a lot of easy buttons that as marketing professionals we can use on a daily basis that are gonna be accessible to authors other than AI. 

Now, I will say it's interesting. I had a conversation with a publicist at the firm where I used to work and I asked her, because when I was there, AI really wasn't a thing. 

Matt: Right. 

Sarah: So I asked her, I said, are you all using AI for your press releases? She's like, you know, some people might be, but not really. Because to them what they were doing and how they were reaching out to media works and the value of having a publicist is that they have built these trusted relationships for the media. 

Matt: Right. 

Sarah: Because it all comes down to that. You're not going to get PR unless somebody gives it to you. You can't go out, I mean, if you, social media really isn't PR - 

Matt: That’s right. 

Sarah: - you're just kind of spreading out into the world. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: So, you know, it comes down to the value is these established relationships they have. And again, I agree with you, like, for me, AI is something that can help with productivity when you are writing something that has very rigid-ish guidelines, like word count, start with this, the lead, the quote, whatever it is, you know, that's, I would use it. 

Matt: Right. So again, if I was going at it myself, part of the benefit of a publicist is they have these relationships, right? They've spent time forging these connections with the various different media outlets and contacts at these places, maybe podcast owners, things like that. We did, in episode 13, we talked about a lot of this and building your own spreadsheet - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: - of potential contacts, something you would use every time you launched a book if you were gonna do this yourself and what the value of that is. And that is, you know, essentially, again, a publicist, one of their most valuable assets is the fact that they have their own spreadsheet or Rolodex of contacts. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: And that's really a big part of what you're paying for. So it makes sense that there's probably not a lot of tools, quote unquote, out there to do publicity with. And so aside from creating a press release or two using ChatGPT or something like that, putting together your own spreadsheet that you're, you're going to probably manually do. There might be a tool that helps you scrape, go find all the podcasts that deal with this particular topic - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: - and pull the contact info for me, right? You could probably use an AI tool to do that for you, but at the end of the day, you're still compiling a spreadsheet, an Excel or Google sheet of these contacts, what outlet it is that they work for or that they're a host on or whatever that might be. So to me, again, PR really is this more manual process activity that does require a delicate touch from somebody who has relationships, trusted relationships they've formed. And so it just adds value to the idea that if you can afford it, you really should hire a publicist. 

But if you can't, just know that the tool sets are limited, but you can make good use of what's out there to try and shorten the amount of time that you have to spend combing the internet for these things. But those are some really good ideas to start with. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: Again, finding those top ten or whatever in your category, your genre, where did they go? What have they been doing? What is their sort of book tour look like out there on the internet?

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: I think that's a great way to have people start looking for those things. 

Lauren: I do want to point out too that like, because we like, break these topics up into episodes, we tend to talk about them like they're siloed things and like they're siloed like… You're doing your book publicity right now. You're doing your book marketing right now. You're doing your book whatever. And they're not like, you shouldn't actually approach them that way. 

Sarah: Right. 

Lauren: They are all things that go hand in hand with each other. So like we talked about, we did an episode on metadata recently and like maximizing your book discoverability. And we talked about tools like the Bublish AI Toolkit. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: And Spark Toro for keyword research. And those are both tools that I wouldn't necessarily consider them publicity tools. But, like SparkToro does have a thing in there when you're doing audience research, it'll tell you where those audiences spend time on the internet. And that includes like, what podcasts they listen to, what blogs they follow, stuff like that. So that is something that as you're doing your audience research and your keyword research, you might wanna make note of, oh, I saw these places recommended. Maybe when it's time for me to go about my publicity efforts, this is where I wanna start. 

Or the Bublish AI tool, one of the things it includes is comp titles. So, you know, maybe this is where I want to start with doing my research into what these comp titles did for their publicity efforts. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So like, even if there aren't tools that are directly dedicated to publicity, there are other tools that we've talked about that will help you with your publicity efforts. 

Matt: Yeah, parallel in that. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: That's a good point. 

Sarah: That's something that I - that was not around when I did it. And I would have loved that because I think the author would have been able to kind of look at their book from an outside perspective. Because they've been entrenched in this book since they started writing it. 

Matt: Yep. 

Sarah: And so it's almost like, okay, so how's my audience looking at my book? I do want to say there's two other things that are tools that are not necessarily technology tools, but they are tools that publicist use. One is HARO. 

Matt: I was going to ask you if that was still around. 

Sarah: It is. 

Matt: That's been around for a while. 

Sarah: I go on and off about subscribing to them because I like to keep my inbox tidy. 

Matt: And that's an acronym. What does it stand for? 

Sarah: Help a Reporter Out. 

Matt: Help a Reporter Out. 

Sarah: So, I kind of have a funny story if we have a second. 

Lauren: Do it. 

Sarah: Okay. 

Lauren: Love a funny story. 

Sarah: So, when I was a publicist, I would subscribe to HARO. And one of the things - and sometimes it'll tell you which media outlet is looking for it, sometimes it'll just have a name - was, do you know anybody who's run the Krispy Kreme Run in Raleigh, North Carolina? I'm writing a story about events that are like these crazy, zany running events. Well, I did. 

For anybody listening, all seven of you, the Krispy Kreme run is something that started probably twenty-ish years ago in Raleigh where you start at the Bell Tower at NC State University. You run to the Krispy Kreme donuts, you eat twelve donuts, and you turn back around. It's a total loop of five miles. You can run it competitively or you can just run it for fun. And a lot of people run it for fun. They dress up in costumes. But as you can imagine, after you eat twelve donuts, you kind of have to watch where you run on the last part of the thing.

Here I am on HARO, just, you know, for my clients or whatever, I see that. So I just send a quick message. So I replied, I was like, oh, I have. She's like, well, can I ask you a few questions for the New York Times? I was like, sure. So she did. We had a quick five minute call about two hours later and I was Sarah Gilbert, Raleigh resident and publicist who ran, says it was kind of gross at the finish line, or whatever. Sadly, not the greatest PR. 

Lauren: Okay, but still.

Sarah: It was honest. 

Matt: I mean, what do they expect from a bunch of people who just ate a dozen donuts- 

Sarah: I know. 

Matt: - and then ran two and a half miles? 

Sarah: So here I am as a publicist trying to get like, the best outlets for all of my customers. I end up in the New York Times within like a day just because I was like, well, I've run it. I don't know how many people who run this crazy race. Anyway, there's another platform that I kind of discovered in the last couple of years called Featured. And I don't - I'm sorry, I don't know what the URL is. Maybe we can put it in the show notes or something. 

Lauren: Yeah, I’ll look. 

Sarah: So Featured is a little bit the same. It asks questions about expertise. And for me to understand how it works, I went through the exercise of using it. And I think you get three free responses a month. And so I went in and it was like, as a public relations manager, how do you… such and such, and that's my role here. So I went in and answered three to five points about how I did whatever it was asking. 

Matt: Right. 

Sarah: And I was in, quoted in an online Forbes article.So it's something to where you can kind of go in and pick and choose and something may come of it, nothing may come of it, but nothing's gonna happen if you don't do anything. 

Matt: Yeah. 

[41:06]

Matt: So let's try to tie some of this back together. Let's say somebody is - whether they're using a publicist or not -

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: - but now we're into the process, right, and you're getting some features. You've maybe done an interview or two on a podcast or whatever that might be. Maybe you had a byline article that went public, I don't want to say viral, but you know what I mean?

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: How do I make the most of those opportunities now that it's out there, it's public? What do I do with that information? Because that's on me now - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: because the publicists did their job or I did my job and I secured those spots, I did the interviews, I've done the, you know, whatever it might be. How do I keep that momentum going? 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: How do I continue to use that content to benefit whatever my goals are for my book? 

Sarah: Yeah, if you get a significant or not - even insignificant, you get a quality media run and that might just be a review. 

Matt: Sure. 

Sarah: For some people. 

Matt: Sure. 

Sarah. Go online, post it from the media source’s platforms, social media platforms. So if the Raleigh News & Observer quoted you you want to go in and you want to share the article that they did. That's better than going on social media and saying I was quoted in this article, here I encourage everybody to go read it. Share that news source if you can it just adds a level of credibility. Also, it might be a good time to circle back to some of the contacts you reached out to previously and just say, hey, heads up, I was featured here. I know you have a like-minded audience.

Matt: Okay. 

Sarah: If you're interested in having me on, I can talk about a fresh topic different than this one, whatever it is that you may be able to use that as momentum to get more traction. 

Matt: Because where you might've gotten crickets from them, because they didn't know who you are, if you come back to them showing that, hey, somebody else took a chance, here's the interview. Now they can see, okay, this isn't just some quack coming out of the woodwork or whatever that might be. 

Sarah: Exactly. 

Matt: Like this actually was a decent interview. They might be a little more willing now to, I got it. That's, that's a good tip. 

Sarah: Yeah. They don't take TV. A lot of times will not take a chance on somebody if they don't have reel. 

Matt: Sure, yeah. 

Sarah: If they don't have samples. So if you do get a chance to have something taped and you're proud of it, use that as well. 

Matt: Okay. 

Sarah: You're like, hey, I look good on TV, or whatever it is that you want to get out there. 

Lauren: Would you recommend if you are if if an author is reaching out to media outlets for earned media and they have some under their belt already as examples, would you recommend that they include that in their pitch? If you're reaching out to the New York Times, let's say - 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Lauren: - and they include in their pitch like this, like I and or my book have been featured in this this and this already and I would love to be featured in the New York Times too. 

Sarah: Yeah, so there's a fine line for this because - 

Lauren: Okay. 

Sarah: - here's the deal with that. If you're reaching out to a very high level prominent outlet, a lot of times they may be turned off by that because they want to be the first ones - 

Lauren: Got it. 

Sarah: - to get you out there. There might be some like exclusivity vibe around that that they're going for. So, but it may work for other things. I absolutely would include it in some circumstances, not in others. And it really just depends on the media outlet and the type of media. I don't necessarily think that in an email pitch to a media outlet, you want to list everything that you've done. It kind of looks, what's the word, the pick me energy? All the young people use. And it also doesn't keep your email brief. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Sarah: Maybe there's one thing that applies to you. If you want to get an idea of how I write a byline article, here's another place I have one posted. Or if you want to get an idea of how I present on television, here's a great example. That's gonna be probably the best case for that.

Matt: Yeah, I agree with you. 

Lauren: So examples not…

Sarah: Not a resume. 

Lauren: Not a - perfect. 
Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah, or pick one and just say I've been featured in many publications including one. 

Sarah: Yeah, I mean they can Google with you. 

Matt: Pick the one you're most proud of. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Sarah: Exactly. 

Matt: So it gives them the idea that yes, you've been at more than one, but also here's the one I'm most proud of - 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: - or the most recent. Yeah, we all too often we see emails from people that are just, again, seven paragraphs long and if you got a seven paragraph email from me you should know something's wrong. 

Lauren: Yup

Sarah: Yes

Matt: Nobody's gonna read through that crap. 

Sarah: No.

Matt: They just don't have the time of the day nor do they care, especially if they don't know who you are.

Lauren: Yeah.

Sarah: Right.

Matt: A seven paragraph email to me stinks of sales pitch or something, so. 

Sarah: It does. And a lot of times, you know, we receive sales pitches all the time. If I get one and it does have that one link, that like this client used us, here's a testimonial. I will click on that one thing. Sometimes. If the rest of the email is presented to me in a professional way. 

Matt: Your inbox is about to get flooded. 

Lauren: It's okay. We won't give it out on air. 

Matt: It's easy. It's PR at Lulu.

Lauren: Okay, Matt's giving it out. 

Matt: Everybody knows, it’s out there. 

Sarah: Forward. Forward. 

Lauren: Add him to the distro list for that immediately. 

Sarah: That’s right. 

Lauren: Unfortunately, I have good news. 

Matt: Be on the lookout for a seven paragraph email from me, Lauren. 

Lauren: Oh God. You don't have time to write a seven paragraph email. 

Matt; Absolutely right about that. I would MattGPT it. 

Lauren: Yeah, you would. It'd be great. I have good news and bad news. The good news is that the Featured URL is just featured.com. 

Sarah: Oh. Easy peasy. 

Lauren: So I linked that in the show notes. 

Sarah: That's easy. 

Lauren: Bad news is that HARO was shut down in December of 2024. 

Sarah: Stop it. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Literally two months ago. 

Lauren: Literally just - 

Matt: Not even. 

Lauren: Not even two full months ago. It was just officially shut down. 

Sarah: I wonder why. Maybe I was making enough money. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Sarah: Cause it was free. Okay. We'll get on Featured everybody. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Sarah: I don't - they don't pay us or anything. I just used it once and it worked for me. 

Lauren: I did see a couple when I googled HARO. I saw a couple websites pop up as the new alternatives to it. 

Sarah: Oh okay. 

Lauren: So that might be but obviously we haven't vetted any of them or have any experience with them, but that's a bummer because I also did use HARO a couple of times and it was cool. 

Sarah: Yeah.

Lauren: So, sad. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

[46:41]

Matt: So would you say that everything we've talked about so far, the different tactics, the activities, the processes, is all that pretty much standard across the board from fiction to nonfiction? Can everybody pretty much utilize these same tactics or look for these same types of things when they're going about the process of finding a publicist? Or are there some things that are a little more specific to fiction versus nonfiction?

Sarah: There are, I would say what we've talked about today falls more into the nonfiction bucket. Fiction's very different because what you are banking on are the feel good or feel bad emotional outcomes people arrive at by reading a book. There are some differences amongst fiction that may be relevant to nonfiction outlets. And so what that means is if you're doing historical fiction and you wrote a book, I'm reading one right now, one of the Kristin Hannah books that's about World War II. 

Lauren: The Nightingale? 

Sarah: Yes, yeah. And it takes place in France during World War II. And if it's the D-Day anniversary, that might be a nice time for a publicist to tie in a fiction book to a real historical event. 

Matt: Right. 

Sarah: Or maybe you're writing your book on, it's a fiction book, but the theme is animal rights. That's going to be a way that a publicist can use a fiction title to reach out to animal rights media. So there are ways that you can take fiction and be kind of crafty, but really for fiction, you want to focus on what's the outcome of the book. Does the reader feel enlightened, happy? Is it going to make them cry? What other authors does their book seem like it's aligned with? 

Like, so it's very different and you're banking on the social proof and the reviews. So for fiction, you primarily want to steer towards what kind of reviews can I get for this book? Then you kind of follow the same rules of engagement by taking your most favorite review and putting that online - 

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: - or retweeting it - or not tweeting, but like resharing it from whatever social media outlet from that source - 

Matt: Right. 

Sarah: - because it does lend more credibility to it. 

Matt: That makes sense. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. I think as we get closer to wrapping things up, I think a lot of people have kind of their own opinions around what PR is. 

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: Or maybe some people have worked with a publicist in the past and had good experiences or bad experiences. I personally, as a marketer, up until recently never really subscribed to the traditional model of PR. I just always kind of, you know, and now have come to embrace a lot of it, but. Are there any sort of misconceptions, misinformation, any petty gripes or things that you would want to take this moment to clear up or kind of say, hey, like don't buy into this. Or, you know, this is really what you should expect or things like that.

Sarah: Yeah. 

Matt: Is there anything that you hear as a publicist or a PR person where you're like, well, that's actually not accurate or that's not true or anything like that?

Sarah: Yeah, there's two things we kind of touched on them throughout this, but the red flags are a publicist is not going to be able to make any promises to you other than I will do this. The promise that can't be kept is: you will get this from it. 

Matt: Gotcha. 

Sarah: So just know that if they're like, oh, I can get you on a certain thing, that's a red flag. That's one thing. The other thing is there's a lot of hard work that goes into it. And to get back to the point that if you're ever doubting what your publicist is doing for you, ask them. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Sarah: They're probably busy doing their job rather than documenting it, like most people. So it's something where I would say if you're in doubt of what you're getting for your money, have a conversation with them about it.

Matt: Yeah. All right. Anything else, Lauren? 

Lauren: No, I think that was great. 

Sarah: Okay. This has been fun. 

Lauren: You covered a lot of the questions that I've had, and I was a publicist for a year, and you still covered a lot of questions that I had. 

Sarah: Well, I love your bookstore expertise. That’s my favorite. 

Lauren: Thanks.

Sarah: Yeah.

Lauren: I miss my bookstore. Doesn't exist anymore. 

Matt: Maybe that wasn't an expertise moment. Maybe that was a... 

Lauren: I wasn't the one paying the bills. 

Matt: Ah. 

Lauren: It's okay. But more importantly, your expertise here was phenomenal. 

Sarah: Aw, thanks. 

Lauren: Thank you so much for sharing with us. Thanks for coming on. 

Sarah: Thanks for having me. This has been fun. 

Lauren: : Loved it. You are technically our first guest with both of us here. 

Matt: That’s true, yeah. 

Lauren: So that was, that was a really exciting first guest to have. 

Sarah: Yay. 

Lauren: Thank you. Thanks for listening, everyone. If you have any questions for Sarah that we didn't cover in this episode, you can email us at podcast@lulu.com, and we will pass them along to her and try to get you some answers. You can also ask me and Matt any questions that you might have. You know, I guess. That too. Podcast@lulu.com or any of Lulu's social media. Come say hi, ask us questions, let us know what you want us to talk about in future episodes. 

Matt: Yep. 

Whatever you can think of. And until then. 

Matt: Thanks, Sarah. 

Sarah: Thank you, it's been fun. 

Lauren: And thanks for listening. 

Matt: Later.

Sarah: All right, bye.