Lauren: Hey everyone, welcome back to Publish & Prosper. Happy New Year. This is our first episode of January, 2025. It's episode number 53. And we are gonna capitalize on the tried and true, if your new year's resolution this year is to write a book in 2025, we are here to help. 

Matt: Well, first of all, congrats that you made it to 2025. 

Lauren: That's so true. 

Matt: Right, so. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Pat yourself on the back for that one, especially if you have the time to sit down and listen to this ridiculous podcast. That means you're doing something right or hoping to do something right. 

Lauren: Yeah, sure, let's go with that.

Matt: I see what you're doing there. Okay, maybe you're doing something wrong then. 

Lauren: I don't know, if you are using this podcast as a form of procrastination to avoid writing, stop it. But also keep listening. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: We're off to a great start. 

Matt: Yeah, I hadn't even thought of my New Year's resolutions actually, have you?

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: You're going to share them or are you one of those people that believes it…? 

Lauren: No, I don't… I-I actually have like, I don't feel any kind of way about sharing them one way or another. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: I definitely will. Except it's kind of weird because my New Year's resolution is to be less of a people pleaser. So make of that what you will. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But…

Matt: Well, there's a lot to make of that. What people are you pleasing currently that you need to do less?

Lauren: Well, apparently not my boss, so. 

Matt: Oh man. 

Lauren: No, I just - more… a little bit more, like it's okay to say no to things every now and then. I think that's my New Year’s resolution is like, you don't have to… you don't have to say yes to every single thing that comes your way. It's okay to sometimes say like, I'm busy that weekend, or I'm not busy that weekend, but I want to take some time for myself or like - 

Matt: I see. 

Lauren: - no, I'd rather not do that. And instead, I'm going to do this thing. 

Matt: On a little more of a personal level

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: Not on a professional level, no. 

Matt: I was like, wait a second. 

Lauren: This is me quiet quitting. 

Matt: Oh. 

Lauren: No, absolutely not. No, just a little bit more like taking some more time for myself this year instead of spreading myself too thin by trying to do all of the things all of the time. 

Matt: At the risk of putting myself in the line of fire, what is quiet quitting? I've heard that referenced before, but never cared enough to stop and ask what it meant. 

Lauren: Yeah. So it's basically the idea of like, putting in less effort at work. You're not quitting, you're not quitting your job, you are still working your nine to five, but you're decreasing the amount of effort that you're putting in on a daily basis. 

Matt: Why would anybody wanna do that? Wouldn't that lead to termination? Yeah, probably.

Lauren: It stems from the mentality of like, I am only putting in the amount of work that I'm getting paid for. I see it a lot in conversations where people will talk about, they'll get their performance review and their performance review will be like, everything is great, you're doing like, exactly what we want you to be doing, we have no criticisms, no negatives. 

Matt: No notes. 

Lauren: No notes. You're getting an average, because you are not exceeding expectations. 

Matt: Oh. 

Lauren: So you're getting a three out of five because you're not going above and beyond, you're doing exactly what's expected of you. And then like, kind of the turnaround of that is like, well, then I'm only doing an average amount of work instead of…

Matt: But isn't that really just poor delivery of a performance review? 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: I mean, obviously I'm speaking from the other side of that fence. That should have been delivered better. 

Lauren: It - 

Matt: Like, you know, you're doing good, but it's, it's also average. Here's some areas where we can elevate that if you're interested in this, we'll get you to this next level and which by the way, often brings more money and or other things.

Lauren: Yes, I mean it's a something that -

Matt: So at the end of the day it's still a fault of management

Lauren:  It is, it -

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: That's exactly what I was just gonna say.

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: That is a - that is a thing that it's it's one of those many things right now that is being turned around onto like the fault of the employees and it is actually just bad management.

Matt: Mostly. 

Lauren: Mostly. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But it's not something that is happening here. I just said I'm not quiet quitting. 

Matt: I would hope not because, otherwise I need a new New Year's resolution. 

Lauren: No, no. 

Matt: Oh. 

Lauren: No, no, I have a lot of work to do. I'm excited about the work we're going to do this year.

Matt: Maybe I should do performance reviews. 

Lauren: No, please don't. 

Matt: Maybe that's where the problem is. 

Lauren: I don't think any of us would enjoy that. Including you. 

Matt: Oh my God. Oh, I definitely wouldn’t enjoy it. 

Lauren: No, we don't need them. It’s fine. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: We've got a great year ahead of us. I'm really excited for some of the things we're going to be doing this year. Some of the events that we're going to be going to some of the things we're going to be trying, whether it's on the podcast or in Lulu in general. And I'm really excited for all the people that are listening to this that are going to publish a book in 2025. 

Matt: Well, hopefully that's everybody. 

Lauren: Yeah. All of you. 

Matt: Including us. 

Lauren: Yeah?

Matt: I mean, how long have you been writing a book—plural, books, more than one?

Lauren: You know, I had this thought yesterday actually, because I have a book that I've been working on. First of all, I literally went -

Matt: You notice she's not answering the question. 

Lauren: - to grad school for this. No, I am gonna answer this question. It's just a roundabout way to do it. I was thinking about this yesterday. I have a book, or like a draft of a book, that I've been working on that was first inspired by a song on Taylor Swift's album Lover. Since I started working on that book. 

Matt: I'm just going to hang myself down with this microphone.

Lauren: That’s fine. Since I started working on that book and have not finished it, she has released four new albums and re-released like five other albums and gone on a two year long record-breaking tour and released a concert movie. And I am still plucking away at this one like, 70,000 word book that I've been... 

Matt: So for everybody listening to this, since this episode is going to be about healthy writing habits, I'm just going to throw this out there right now: buyer beware. 

Lauren: Do as I say, not as I do. 

Matt: Oh my God. 

Lauren: I am qualified to talk about this. 

Matt: You are qualified to talk about it, of course.

Lauren: I do know what I'm talking about here. I went to grad school for creative writing and have an MFA in creative writing. I have done the work. I just haven't actually finished anything. 

Matt: You want me to do this episode so you can pay attention and absorb it all? 

Lauren: Actually, yeah, I'd love to see what you have to say about building a healthy writing habit. 

Matt: Oh, I got it. 

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: Just take notes, okay? We want to see you finish that book.

Lauren: I can't wait. 

Matt: Or books. 

Lauren: What about you? Are you going to publish a book this year? 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: I think we should, I genuinely think that we should set this challenge to each other. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: By the end of 2025. 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: We're going to have written a book. 

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: Each. 

Matt: Published a book. 

Lauren: Okay. Well. 

Matt: Published a book. 

Lauren: I was hoping you wouldn't notice the slight word change. 

Matt: Of course I noticed. 

Lauren: I'll take that deal. 

Matt: But for you and I, you could publish something you wrote in a matter of days. 

Lauren: That's true. 

Matt: So that's really the least of your concerns. 

Lauren: That's true. 

Matt: You just gotta get the manuscript done. 

Lauren: That's the hard part. 

Matt: Edited, formatted. Well, lucky for you, we know people. 

Lauren: We know a lot of people. 

Matt: And platforms. 

Lauren: And have a lot of resources available. 

Matt: And tools. 

Lauren: A lot of tools. 

Matt: That's right. 

Lauren: A lot of options. 

Matt: If anybody out there wants to apply to be Lauren's editor, just email us at podcast@lulu.com. Preferably you don't have any experience, because I'd like to win this contest. 

Lauren: Wait. 

Matt: Really all the experience you need is just understanding Taylor Swift references. And I think you'll be able to edit her book. 

Lauren: Unfortunately, there absolutely are Taylor Swift references in the book. 

Matt: What do your bracelets say today? 

Lauren: Great segue, more Taylor Swift references. There's the classic Old Habits Die Screaming. We've done that one before. 

Matt: How apropos. 

Lauren: You're on Your Own, Kid. 

Lauren: And then the last one says It's Fine. 

Matt: It's fine. Why didn't you use the colors of fire? 

Lauren: I thought about it. I have some that are really cool fiery colors like that, but I tend to match my bracelets to my outfits and I don't wear a lot of red. So I have a lot of red bracelets because I like how they look and then I don't wear them very often because they don't match a lot of what I'm wearing. 

Matt: I'm instantly regretting my decisions today so far. 

Lauren: I don't know what I expected, or what you expected, honestly. 

Matt: What a way to start the year. 

Lauren: It really is. 

Matt: Yeah. You're on your own kid.

Lauren: Exactly. 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: Also, fun fact, that is the song that that started the friendship bracelet thing. I know, it's okay. 

Matt: I don’t know what to do with that. 

Lauren: Absolutely nothing. 

Matt: Thank you. 

Lauren: You're so welcome. 

Matt: That's about what I'm going to do. 

Lauren: That's a tidbit of information for you to immediately forget. 

Matt: Thank you. 

Lauren: You're so welcome. 

Matt: I don't have a lot of room left up there, so I can't afford to junk it up with that stuff. 

[8:19]

Lauren: More importantly, let's talk about if you are publishing a book in 2025, or if your goal is to publish a book in 2025. And you know that the first thing you have to do is write it. 

Matt: I would say even if your goal is to just start writing in 2025. 

Lauren: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: Forget about the publishing part that'll naturally come. But I mean, that's one foot at a time, right? 

Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. 

Matt: Especially for you. 

Lauren: Baby steps, okay? It's all about baby steps. But no, in this case, that first step that's one foot in front of the other, the first thing you got to do is build that writing habit. Because it really is something that… you can't just rely on: I'm gonna sit down and write for eight hours every day, and I'm gonna bang this book out in like two weeks. And I'm not saying that there aren't people that do that. There are some incredibly prolific authors that do that, that make it their full-time job to sit down and write for eight hours a day. 

Matt: I have to stop you and be fair to you for a second. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: So earlier we were joking around about you not finishing, but really that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about writing habits and the finish line is different for everybody, right? So I have to apologize. Your finish line might not have been five years ago when you started it, eight years ago, whatever it was.

Lauren: It was five. It was five years ago. 

Matt: But everybody's finish line is going to be different. So I think while I'm apologizing to you, we should put that out there very front and clear that developing really good writing habits doesn't necessarily correlate to when your book will be published. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: That's up to you, and you can work backwards from that if you want to. Which will also be determined, for the most part, the kind of book you're writing and why you're writing it. Right? 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So again, my apologies to you. 

Lauren: I accept your apology. 

Matt: You may have really great writing habits. You just haven't reached your publishing deadline yet.

Lauren: Spoiler alert. I don't. That's why -

Matt: See, I was giving you an out. 

Lauren: I know, you’re giving me the out. 

Matt: And you just blew it. Forget it. 

Lauren: No, but that's - 

Matt: Just edit all that out. 

Lauren: But listen, that's my point. 

Matt: I don't even want my apology on record. 

Lauren: But you are - 

Matt: You just blew it. 

Lauren: But you are correct. 

Matt: Nah. 

Lauren: And you're completely right to say that, in that that is where it falls apart for me, is that I have not built up the necessary writing habits to get this done. And I know what I'm supposed to do, and I just haven't done it. Because it is important to actually - that's what I'm saying. You cannot just rely on the like ‘oh, I'm going to get it done. I'm going to do it. I'm going to take weekends here and there, or I'm going to do like a, I'm going to write when I feel like it and when the mood strikes, like it doesn't - 

Matt: Is that what you do?

Lauren:  Yeah. 

Matt: Oh. 

Lauren: And it doesn't work. That's why it's important that if this is your goal to write more. And this is also, you know, let's say you weren't even talking about publishing a book this year. Let's say -

Matt: I think for you, you should not be allowed to make another bracelet until… every 500 words that you write, you should be allowed to make a new bracelet. 

Lauren: Let's up it to a thousand.

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: You cannot make another bracelet until you've written a thousand more words. 

Lauren: Good thing I made eight last night. 

Matt: Then you got 8,000 words to write. 

Lauren: Oh no. 

Matt: So from now on, no new bracelets. They each have to coincide with a thousand words written.

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: Because you sure as hell got a lot of time to make bracelets. 

Lauren: Well, yeah. Okay. But I'm usually making bracelets while I'm doing other things. 

Matt: Like not writing. 

Lauren: But I'm not. Yeah. Okay. And I'm watching TV instead of writing. You're right. You're right. 

[11:35]

Lauren: Okay. Two really important things that Matt has just introduced right here in this. See. 

Matt: You’re welcome.

Lauren: I knew you'd have something to contribute to this. 

Matt: I'm done now. 

Lauren: First thing when you're building a writing habit, you have to know what your goals are. Whether your goal I want to build a good writing habits, so I want to get in the daily routine of writing, and that is my goal. Great. You know, maybe your goal is I want to have a 50 day streak where I wrote every day for 50 days straight. That's enough time to build a habit. That's enough time to make this a routine. Perfect. 

If you are jumping right into, I want to publish a book this year and my goal is to write a book this year. Okay. And then you're going to sit there and say, okay, maybe it's a… I'm writing a 60,000 word book – I'm going to attempt to do math off the top of my head right now, so feel free to jump in anytime – I'm going to… I'm gonna write a 60,000 word book this year. I'm gonna set the goal of writing a thousand words a day, every day. What is that, 60 days? Help me. 

Matt: Whoa. No wonder you haven't gotten anything written. 

Lauren: Am I wrong? 

Matt: I forgot what the question was now. What was the question? What was the math? I'll do it for you.

Lauren: 60,000 divided by a thousand.

Matt: 60,000 divided by a thousand is 60. 

Lauren: Yeah, so I was right. 

Matt: I didn't hear what you said. 

Lauren: I said if your goal is to write a 60,000 word book and you're going to set yourself the goal of writing a thousand words every day, it's going to take you 60 days. 

Matt: Oh, I thought you said 30 days. Sorry. 

Lauren: That's on you, not me. 

Matt: That is on me. 

Lauren: I did get it right. It's on record. You can hear it. 

Matt: I was actually daydreaming. I was. 

Lauren: That's fair. That's fine. 

Matt: You were right. 60. Good job. 

Lauren:  All right. Great. So whatever it is, whatever your goals are. Or even if you're not, trying to write a book and you're just trying to say like, I want to write more blog content this year. I've heard that long form writing is more popular… whatever it is, this is you have to know what your goals are so that you can start building that routine of you're working towards a specific target every day. 

Matt: Well, can I play devil's advocate for a second? And I know that a lot of the stuff out there speaks to daily, but I would also argue that if you just had a goal that it could be weekly, right? For some people like myself, there's some days there's just no way - 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: - I could write. There's just no way, like based on workload, and home, personal stuff, and just whatever, there's just some days that happen. But then there's other days where quite honestly, I could literally spend an hour to two hours writing if I wanted to. So I think for some people, and maybe you'll get to this, it doesn't necessarily have to be daily, but giving yourself some sort of chronologically based goal or deadline, right? I'm going to write - we'll use your example - 60,000 words in a 30 day period. And maybe tracking it that way either by the month or the week is easier for some people. Because for me, if I'm faced with anything that has to be done on a daily deadline, automatically my brain, I'm already at a default. Like I'm just like, there's no way. 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: Like I immediately start thinking about all the reasons why today I won't be able to do it and maybe tomorrow, but now I'm looking at three days out like, okay, I think for some people, they maybe thrive on that pressure of like a daily. 

Lauren: Oh, absolutely. 

Matt: Others, I think, perform a little better when they have some looser… does that make sense? 

Lauren: Yes, it does. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: And that's actually, I'm going to quote myself here because I wrote in the outline, consistency does not have to mean rigidity. And I think that that's something that's really important. Because that is always… exactly what you just described is always what trips me up. And that's always where my like, habit building effort when it comes to writing falls apart, is that I get too committed to like, I told myself I was gonna write every day. And there are some days where it's just not feasible. Like there are some days where I leave the house at 7:45 to come to the office and I get home at 11 o'clock at night. And when was I supposed to write?

Matt: What? 

Lauren: In that window of time? 

Matt: What were you doing after four o’clock? 

Lauren: Remember when I said - 

Matt: Playing Dungeons and Dragons? 

Lauren: No. Sometimes. 

Matt: See. 

Lauren: Unfortunately. But remember when I said going to be less of a people pleaser next year?

Matt: Ah, I gotcha. 

Lauren: That's what I'm saying. I don't need to be doing this thing where I am out until 11 o'clock on a weeknight.

Matt: I agree. That's way too late. 

Lauren: It’s - Yeah, it is. That was always where I fall apart because I'll go, oh, well, I didn't have time to write today and I just, I just broke the streak and that's not… that's it. I'm just, I'm done. I'm not gonna bother anymore and -

Matt: Your boy’s in bed by nine o'clock. 

Lauren: Oh, that sounds great.

Matt: I'm not asleep, but I'm in bed by - 

Lauren: Yeah, you got a book, you got - 

Matt: 11 o'clock? They better be a really good friend.

Lauren: I mean, yeah, I have a lot of really good friends. That's - I'm very lucky that way.

Matt: Hmm, nobody getting me out of bed at that time. Unless it’s one of my kids stranded on the side of the road somewhere.

Lauren: That's fair. But the point is that I agree with you that… you know, while a lot of people want to talk about the importance of writing every day. I think it is more important to set yourself consistent goals that are achievable for you. That work within your... Even if you say like, I'm very... Despite the fact that I can't get this writing habit thing down, I am actually very big on habit tracking. 

I've been doing it for a couple of years now and like daily habit tracking in a planner. We've talked about this. I make my own planner every year. That to me, I'm very streak based. Like I'm very like, as soon as I have a streak going for something, I don't want to break the streak. I'm not motivated to work out because I want to work out.

Matt: So basically you’ve -

Lauren: I'm motivated to work out because I've closed my ring 30 days in a row. 

Matt: You've gamified your life. 

Lauren: Yes. I treat myself like a Tamagotchi basically. But yes, absolutely. I've, I've gamified my life and that's the system that works for me, but I also recognize that it wouldn't work for plenty of other people. So that is like a key element of any kind of habit building, but specifically writing habit like this, is you have to know yourself well enough to know what's going to work for you. And if you're going to say like, okay, I know that with my lifestyle, I'm busy, I have a full time job. I'm trying to get this small business off the ground. I have a family, I have kids, I have responsibilities outside of this. Maybe writing every single day, maybe setting aside an hour at six o'clock in the morning every day to write is not gonna work for you. 

Okay, so what will work for you? Can you say five out of seven days a week, so then you have a little bit of flexibility if there's one day that you're like, oh, I didn't get to it today, but I'll do it tomorrow. Is there some flexibility in your schedule where you can say, you know, I'm gonna commit to four hours of writing in a week, and if that means, you know, a half hour every day and a little bit of extra time somewhere else? 

Matt: What do you - 

Lauren: Or - 

[18:14] 

Matt: What do you think is better, like committing or trying to set goals that are word-based or time-based?

Lauren: I think it depends on what your... 

Matt: I'm sorry, I can't stop thinking about you as a Tamagotchi toy. If you're not a Tamagotchi toy for Halloween this year, I'm gonna be very upset. 

Lauren: All right, I'll make a note. I'll pin this as a reminder. I'll make a note to myself for that. 

Matt: What a great reference. 

Lauren: Thanks. I mean, I literally had to trick myself into drinking water and now I'm... Now I like get cranky if I go more than a few hours - or not even a few hours, like an hour - without drinking water. 

Matt: Why do you think it depends on what you're writing as to whether or not you set goals based on word count or a time based goal like, hey, I want to spend an hour a week. 

Lauren: So I'm actually going to, I - 

Matt: Regardless of output?

Lauren: was going to renege on that immediately after I said it, because I don't actually agree with what I was about to just say. I do think that it matters. And I do think that word count goal is better than time goal, because I think it's really easy to waste time when you're writing.

Matt: But by that same token, it's really easy to waste words when you have a count you're trying to reach in a deadline, right? If I think about when I was in high school, for example, or even college, you're given an essay that's based on word count. 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: 99.5% of the kids turning those things in, typically you get towards the end of that essay and just a bunch of gibberish because they were trying to get the required word count down before the deadline. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: So it was less about quality and more about meeting that word count. So I'm wondering if, and I've never given myself a word count deadline, by the way, for writing and maybe people out there can attest to this or not, but I'm wondering if it's the same phenomenon whereby if I tell myself, okay, I'm not kind of a daily goal because that's just crazy, but weekly I'd either like to write three hours per week or I don't know, let's just say 50,000 words. No? 30,000 words. 

Lauren: In a week? 

Matt: 15,000 words. 

Lauren: Okay, sure. 

Matt: My point is - 

Lauren: Matt’s going to finish his book before I am, that's for sure. 

Matt: I probably will. My point is that if I'm faced with having to finish up 15,000 words before the end of the week versus just logging three hours trying to write some quality things, I may find myself coming down to the end of that week going, I still got to get 2,500 more words out. Let me just crank something out real quick and I'll come back later and edit it and make sure it makes sense. You know what I mean?

Lauren: So… okay, two things in response to that. First of all, the only person that you're screwing over in that scenario is yourself. 

Matt: Well, of course. 

Lauren: So…

Matt: But that's just how your brain works. 

Lauren: Yes, that's fair. But even in that case, my argument is going to be that: it is better to have extraneous words on page, because you can go back and edit those. I always think it is so much easier to trim down verbose writing than it is to build up non-existent writing. I like editing more than I like writing. That's one of the things that I've learned about myself. That's one of the things that slows me down a lot. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: And that's a whole separate conversation. 

Matt: I’ll buy into that, I’ll buy into that. 

Lauren: But. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: I think that that is fair to be like, okay, I'm gonna try to get 2,000 words on page today. And even if later when you go back and edit only a thousand of those are usable, that is still better than saying, I'm going to write for an hour today. And I just, I…you know, I need good background music while I'm writing and this is just not doing it for me. So I'm going to build a playlist really quick of like, vibey songs that go with the vibe that I'm writing. And now all of a sudden it's been 40 minutes of me building this playlist and I'm going to like, word vomit for 20 minutes onto a page and get 500 words out of it. That's not adding any value. 

Matt: I mean, it's quite a visual too. I'm not sure why we had to bring that into the mix, but okay.

Lauren: Sorry. I don't know. I think it's fine. 

[22:07]

Lauren: One of the other things that kind of goes hand in hand with that quality of writing. I think that one of the things that people get stuck on a lot and by people, I mean me, but also I know other people do too, of the pressure of what I'm writing right now has to be good. 

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. 

Lauren: You know, like I'll spend like just to the same point about word count versus like time spent writing. I will get caught up in the nitty gritty details of things and I will agonize for like ten minutes over like…

Matt: The conjunction. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: The right conjunction. 

Lauren: Yeah. Like, do I use this or like - 

Matt: That's fair. Okay. 

Lauren: The hands down the worst thing that I, the thing that I have the hardest time with when it comes to writing is naming characters. And - 

Matt: Why? 

Lauren: I don't know. I think I have too many associations with too many names. And so I'm always trying to like, do I know anybody with this name? Does this name sound accurate? Not accurate, but like when you hear this name for the first time is the mental image that comes to mind gonna match the character in question? But I like, I will do that for background characters. It'll literally be like, they're going to a party at somebody's house and you're never gonna even meet the person whose party they're at. Like, they're just like, the reference point for whose house they're going to. And I'll spend fifteen minutes trying to figure out the name of the person whose house they're going to. Like that is unnecessary and a waste of time. 

And one of the things that has made my writing time go a lot smoother is that when I hit roadblocks like that, I will literally just put brackets name in all caps highlight it a specific color and then move on with my writing. I think that's really important to try to recognize the things that slow you down. If you're a terrible speller - doesn't matter. I have a masters in creative writing and I can't spell for shit. That is why - 

Matt: I don't think you can say that on YouTube, by the way. 

Lauren: Oh, sorry. 

Matt: I could be wrong about that. 

Lauren: Okay. Well, I - Let's, let's just in case we can't say that on YouTube: If you are the kind of person. 

Matt: Well, maybe I don't know shit about YouTube. 

Lauren: Damn it. 

Matt: All right, let's keep going.

Lauren: Okay, the point is that your writing doesn't have to be perfect right now. That's fine. The point is to write and then you can go back and edit it later. 

Matt: Yeah, I think you said it best. If there's nothing to edit, you can't edit it. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: You just got to get words to paper. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: And I think that I fall back on that argument earlier. I think you're right, because I could easily see also where… how a word count might intimidate me or get me kind of tripped up in my own head. The reverse of that or the converse of that or inverse of that, sorry, is that I also could find myself wasting twenty minutes on some arbitrary like, wait a second, is this even, is this real? Like, if they're supposed to be in the scene, would the scene actually have this type of body of water there? Yeah. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: So I agree. I think the goal would be to get something on paper because you can always go back and edit it later. So, agreed. 

[24:48]

Lauren: Another thing, and I'm cautiously giving this piece of advice, but I always like to have a backup prompt. Cause there's nothing worse - and we've talked about this before when we were talking about using AI writing tools and stuff like that - there's nothing worse than when you're just looking at a blinking cursor on a blank word doc and you've suddenly forgot just like every word that exists in the English language. 

And, and the pressure, and then you've got that building pressure of like, like I'm trying to establish this writing habit and I - and I can't - if I don't get something out then I'm wasting my time and I'm not going to do the things that I need to do and they're all just like spirals…maybe. Maybe some of you don't have anxiety, and you don't feel that way, but some of us do.

Matt: I feel like this episode is hitting way too close to home for you. Like this has turned, I mean, by the end of this, it's going to be a therapy session. I don't know if any of us are prepared for that. 

Lauren: How many of these podcasts episodes have not been therapy sessions in some way or another? You gave me a platform.

Matt: Okay. That’s fair. 

Lauren: Okay, great. 

Matt: Once again, it's the manager's fault. 

Lauren: Always. Always. But no, so one of the things that I like to do is have a quick little five minute writing prompt on hand for those days when you're stuck, for those days where you can't get the words flowing. I'm not saying every day - and some people might recommend starting every single writing session with a little five minute free association prompt that you write a paragraph and then move on from. If that works for you, take it. 

Matt: What would an example of that be? Just out of curiosity, if I wanted to try it.

Lauren: It can be a lot of different things. There are a lot of writing journals or guided journals out there that you can go through and it'll be literally just every page of it will have a question at the top or like a…

Matt: So you're basically saying any kind of writing prompt? 

Lauren: Any kind of writing prompt. I mean, it can even be something… It can be something like you, you woke up this morning and all the electricity was out. What do you do? 

Matt: You're not writing anything if the electricity is out.

Lauren: Worldwide. Electricity is out as far as you can tell. 

Matt: Oh, well you still got bigger problems. 

Lauren: Electricity does not exist. What do you do? But that's exactly the point. So that's the prompt. 

Matt: Ah. I see. 

You woke up this morning and there was no electricity as far as you could tell. What do you do? How do you react? 

Matt: Gotcha. 

Lauren: But you can also, your writing prompt could be a challenge. I had a professor one time in grad school, I loved this prompt. She challenged us to write an entire paragraph, the content could be whatever we wanted, but we could only use one syllable words.

Matt: Why would everything have to be monosyllabic? I don't understand. 

Lauren: It was a challenge. It was just a - and it was really challenging and it was really fun because it also forced you to read your writing out loud, which is always my number one tip when it comes to editing. We don't have to talk about that now, but reading your writing out loud is a great way to edit. 

But it was a really good way to kind of like, shift my perspective on it and be like, oh, how do I find new ways to say whatever it is that I'm trying to say using only one syllable words? Something like that, that is taking the pressure off of you to like, write the next chapter of your book or write the blog post you're supposed to be working on or whatever it is. And instead, just get the gears turning. It's like walking on the treadmill for five minutes before you start running. 

Matt: Oh. Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah? 

Matt: That makes sense.

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I like it.

Lauren:  Thanks. There are great, great options for you if you want to do something like that. I don't have any specific writing journals that I would recommend, but there are a ton on the Lulu Bookstore if you want to support an indie author. There are also plenty you can find. If you have a favorite writer, check out their recommendations. They might have one that they like. They might have written one that they like. One of my favorite authors has a five-minute daily prompt writing journal. I have it. I wrote in it twice, but I do have it. There's also at least one app that I know of, The Writer's Hour, which is the London Writing Salon. 

Matt: Oh.

Lauren: They do like a daily… daily prompt and it's at different times, I think, throughout the day. And they also, I don't know if they use the term writing sprint, but this is a thing if you are… I'm getting ahead of myself, but if you've ever joined any writing communities, a writing sprint is when everybody will say like, okay, you know, we're going to set a timer for fifteen minutes and everybody is going to write for fifteen minutes and then we're going to hit stop. Something like that is a fun way to try to like -

Matt: That sounds paralyzing. 

Lauren: Get it going. 

Matt: By the way. 

Lauren: I know. I know it's well, you know, these things work for some people and not for others. And that's fine. 

Matt: I don't think it's a bad idea. To me, it sounds paralyzing. 

Lauren: Yeah, it could be. It could be good. It could be rough. 

[29:14]

Lauren: Another great way to work on your writing habit is accountability. If you are… if the only person that knows that you're trying to build this habit is you, you are completely responsible and accountable for your own efforts.

Matt: Well, now whatever the size of our audience is, we're accountable to them because we said that we would both finish and publish a book in 2025 this year. 

Lauren: That's true. We're gonna have to remember to do like a monthly check-in on that. 

Matt: Right. I like the writing in public version of accountability. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: I think a lot of people do it more these days. And I love that, you know, especially on the nonfiction side of things, people are really using that whole blog to book type of approach as well too. So writing in public, but then also having dual purposes for that content, I think, is really cool. Yeah, I think writing in public has become a much bigger trend now. And I think people really like it. 

Lauren: What do you mean by dual purposes? 

Matt: So, you know, if I'm writing in public, let's say I'm creating content and I said nonfiction, I'm writing a blog article and I post it publicly. This is an article on whatever the five top ways to ensure engagement across your social media channels. Right? And then the next week, now I've set my audience up by the way to say, like, I'm writing these blog articles. These will eventually become chapters in my book, or the beginnings of chapters in my book, or something along those lines. 

But then the next week you're writing and posting something on your blog. So at the end of the process, you've got not only now blog content for however long you've been doing it, but now you basically have all the chapters of a book that you're gonna publish at the end as well, or expand upon for a book. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: You know what I mean? Having content that ends up being dual purpose, it's not just for your book, but it actually serves to help grow your platform online outside of your book, right? 

Lauren: Yeah, I mean, I would argue that that has at least three purposes in that example that you just gave? 

Matt: Yeah, it could have way more.  

Lauren: Like, that’s - yeah.

Matt: Sure. Yeah. But multi-purpose, you know what I mean? 

Lauren: Yeah, yes. 

Matt: Dual purpose, multi-purpose either way. But yeah. 

Lauren: But yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: No, that's a great, that is a great point actually. And that is probably a great way if you're thinking about motivation tactics for yourself, that is a great way to do it is not only like I'm writing in public, so there are people that I’ve… that are expecting commitments. 

Matt: Yeah, it's the accountability.

Lauren: It's the accountability, yeah. 

Matt: If you don't post one that week, all of a sudden people are like, hey, what happened? 

Lauren: Right. Right. 

Matt: These are supposed to be weekly, like. 

Lauren: It's a much shorter timeline. It goes back to what you were saying earlier about like, some of us need a deadline in order to get things done. And it's very easy to sit here and say, I'm going to write a book in sixty days. It's fine. Whatever. Like that's sixty days. It's so far away. Two months from now is like, it's forever from now, you know? But if you have to sit there and say, okay, I need a blog post that I can post this Friday, every Friday, for the next two months, what eight weeks? That is a much tighter deadline and much more motivating to a certain kind of person. Both of us included, I think. 

Matt: Well, I've even seen people set it up where they don't even couch it as, hey, this is for my blog. It's literally like, hey, I'm going to be writing my book in public. And it just happens to be posted on their blog or, you know, something like that. But yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Hundred percent multipurpose content, I think is the output there. But the real benefit, I think, is that accountability, that piece where you're in public now. So people are like, hey, where, where is it this week? What's going on? 

Lauren: Yep. And I know there are definitely people that are listening to that and going, that sounds like my personal nightmare. I would rather die. 

Matt: Well, all of this in one way or another sounds like a personal nightmare. 

Lauren: Yeah, that's fair. 

Matt: It's basically what writers go through every day. 

Lauren: Writing is such a weird experience in that it is so… it’s such an introverted, isolated hobby that people that tend to be more introverted are drawn to. But there are certain elements of it that you have to be an extrovert about. And it's a very weird mix of trying to bridge that gap between this is an insular activity, but also I cannot do it alone. 

Matt: Yeah, yeah. 

Lauren: Which is a great segue to if you are somebody who does not want to write in public but you do want to find accountability buddies or something like that. There are so many writing communities that are available, whether they're online or in person. If you are looking for an in-person one, if you want to find somewhere that you can go on a regular basis that's local to you, check your local library, check your local bookstore, coffee shops, breweries, any kind of place that has community gathering spaces, somebody's gonna have a recommendation, whether it's like an officially organized one, the like your library might have an actual officially organized one. The bookstore that I worked at, we didn't have our own writing group, but we had a writing group that just used our space once a month. 

Matt: See, I have a big fear - and you noted this in the outline, I almost feel attacked here. You've got something here. It's a - it says: don't lie to your accountability buddies though, that's silly. 

Lauren: I remember - 

Matt: I would be that silly goose because I'd be like, yeah, I did my, yep, yep. And they'd want to see it and I'd be like, it's private. It's, you know, you'll see it when it's published.

Lauren: That was actually, that was something that I found very interesting when I was in grad school. I went to a school that had within the graduate writing program, there were four different programs based on what genre. And all four of the subsections had very different opinions on sharing their work with each other. 

My cohort, we were all the time, even outside of class, being like, hey, I wrote something last night and I just would love another set of eyes on it, can you take a look at it? They'll still to this day, I will still every now and then hear from one of them, hey, I'm looking for beta readers for something that I'm working on, are you willing to read this? And then there were other students in other classes that their work assignments for class, you had to like, pry them from their hands because they were so unwilling to have - 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: To share what they considered their work in progress. So there's ways to go about this with whatever your comfort level is. Also, if the idea of meeting up with people in person, I'm, I - I believe Matt has shared a story on the podcast before about the time that he tried to -

Matt: The time I tried to create a group for horror writers in college? 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So if you don't want that to happen to you and you want to, you want to dip your toe in by starting with an online writing community, there are so many of those check Discord, check Circle, check Facebook, Tumblr, anywhere  - 

Matt: Is Tumblr still a thing?

Lauren: It is. I mean, I'm not on it anymore. 

Matt: Really? 

Lauren: But it does still exist. Yeah. 

Matt: Wow.

Lauren: But think about any of those spaces that lend themselves to group organizations of any kind and chances are good that you will find at least one writing community. And also, it doesn't have to be another writer. If you really want to just like… if you really don't want to get super, super invested in sharing your writing with somebody else… Let's say I have a friend who's trying to build a running habit. 

Matt: Oh god. 

Lauren: And they're going to set themselves a goal that they're going to run four times a week. And I'm going to set myself a goal that I'm going to write five times a week. We can be each other's accountability buddies. Hey, did you run this week?

Matt: Yeah, but. 

Lauren: I wrote this week. 

Matt: I feel like that's where you're left open to be able to be dishonest. And I'd be like, yeah, man, I ran all five days. 

Lauren: Yeah, and again, the only person that you're - 

Matt: While I’m sitting on the couch eating like - 

Lauren: The only person that you’re disappointing there is yourself.

Matt: Marshmallows and peanut butter out of the jar. 

Lauren: Together? 

Matt: Don't judge. What's wrong with that? 

Lauren: Marshmallows and peanut butter?

Matt: I mean, what do you want me to say? It's gotta be extra crunchy peanut butter too. Not that creamy stuff.

Lauren: Okay, we're gonna move on. I don't want to touch that. Honestly.

Matt: It’s your loss. 

Lauren: Okay. Oh my god, please anything. No, it's fine. I - to be fair, I don't actually like marshmallows. So that makes it - 

Matt: But I mean, you know, at some point in the annals of history, somebody was like, what do you mean sweet and sour chicken? What do you mean you're gonna put pineapple with? 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: Come on, that's disgusting. And then it just became a worldwide phenomenon. 

Lauren: Yeah, that's fair. 

Matt: So, I just want to point that out. 

Lauren: No no no, you're - you're right.

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: I'm not trying to. I mean, we can, we can fight about the crunchy peanut butter as much as you want. 

Matt: Wait.

Lauren: But I will not. 

Matt: Are you advocating for creamy? 

Lauren: Oh, yeah. 

Matt: Oh, my God, Lauren. 

Lauren: I don't want my peanut butter to crunch. I don't want my peanut butter and jelly sandwich to crunch. 

Matt: That's what peanuts do. 

Lauren: Well, I don't like peanuts. I like peanut butter. 

Matt: Oh, my gosh. I don't. Let's move on. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: 2025 is starting off on the wrong foot already. 

Lauren: Are you surprised? 

Matt: I don't want to answer that. 

Lauren: Okay. If you are going to set goals for yourself as a writer, whether you are deciding: I don't wanna deal with all these communities or like, I don't wanna try to figure this out on my own, I just want to like kind of sit down and focus on this and get started with something. Again, I'm gonna recommend a habit tracker, whether you make your own or literally just. You can go on Lulu right now and download a free template and print one off at cost for yourself. That could just be your like, writing habit tracker that you use every day, and that's it, just to keep track of your progress or whatever. There are also some really, really great writing planners on the Lulu Bookstore. Audrey Hughey is a Lulu Author that is a phenomenally…

Matt: Gifted. 

Lauren: That's a great word. Gifted writing coach. She has - 

Matt: She also writes horror. 

Lauren: She is a great writer. She's written a lot of books herself and she puts together writing planners every year. She does dated ones that's like, The Ultimate Author Planner for every year. And then she also does just general writing journals that are like, habit trackers and stuff like that. They have all the things. 

Matt: She also does custom ones. 

Lauren: She does. She has a lot of really cool stuff. I'm definitely going to link her in the show notes. She's also a great resource. If you are working on building your writing habit. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: In addition to these books that she does, that's a great way to kind of get you started. If you're like, I don't, I don't really know what I want to do. I don't know what goals I want to set for myself. I just know that I want to write a book this year. Ask an expert. And this is a great way to start - after you listen to this podcast episode. 

[39:06] 

Lauren: What do you think? Is there anything else that you can think of?

Matt: I think as it pertains to establishing writing habits, how to set yourself up for success with a writing habit, I think, I think that's a pretty good start. You know, I do think there's… again, as we talk through a lot of these, there are times where I'm like, I cringe at what you're saying and I'm like, that just won't work for me. But I did find myself as we talked through it going, well, you know what? Actually, maybe that would work for me. 

So I think, I think the biggest takeaway here is again, I think as humans, innately, anything we're writing, we want to make sure it's great as we write it. And so for me, the biggest takeaway or one of the biggest takeaways is what you said earlier about don't get so hung up on it being perfect that first time around, like the important thing is that you just get it out onto paper. And I do agree with you after talking it through that giving myself a timed goal of like, just write for three hours a week versus a word count goal. I agree now, I think the word count goal is better. Just get it on the paper. You can always come back through later and edit it and nine times out of ten make an even better paragraph that way, or sentence. But I think that's really helpful. 

I will say that I have been playing around with and exploring some AI assisted writing tools because I'm one of those who you talked about earlier where I kind of get stuck at the beginning. You know? Even if I've got a good outline of what I want to put down, it still oftentimes takes me a little while to get started and I could end up wasting a lot of time that way. And I've found that some of these tools are really helpful at giving me a jump off point and then I could just go and it's fine. So I would say, you know, there's probably some tools and things that people can look into that help with that. 

Lauren: Yeah, definitely. I'm going to plug the Lulu blog in here because Paul does a lot of software reviews and product reviews and stuff like that. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: That are specifically writer focused or publishing focused but as a writer himself, he has great insight into a lot of these different tools.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So if you're curious about one. 

Matt: And he spends a lot of time in those tools. 

Lauren: Yeah, he really, everything that he reviews, he actually uses them himself before he will write any kind of review about it. They're not sponsored reviews. Like he actually tests out these tools. So I definitely recommend checking out, I'll link a couple in the show notes just to get you started. But I do think I totally agree with everything that you just said. And one of the things that you said in there - 

Matt: I love when you say that.

Lauren: I know I've actually thought before about making a super cut of just all the times that I've said I agree with you as like a present for you. 

Matt: I’m gonna start that for this year. 

Lauren: Okay great. 

Matt: Yup. This is the first episode of January. You've said that twice. 

Lauren: All right. 

Matt: I'm going to keep a tally. 

Lauren: I'll start - I’ll start flagging it. You said in there something about how you're listening to these tips and you're like some of these things you're like, oh, like that, that stresses me out or that wouldn't work for me or I'm not sure how I would feel about that. Sometimes when it comes to something like this that is habit building, I think that is important, to try those things anyway. Even if you do know that they're not going to work for you, even if you think they're not going to work for you.I am somebody who used to think that the idea of outlining was absurd. 

Matt: I'm the opposite.

Lauren:  I absolutely never, I did not like outlines. I wouldn't write them for essays. I wouldn't write them for fiction writing, for creative writing. I thought outlines were a waste of time. And I was a very big advocate for like, no, no, I'm gonna go where this story takes me. The characters are gonna tell me, or the essay is gonna lead me in the direction that it's going in. Like I don't - 

Matt: Is that college Lauren's voice? Like - 

Lauren: No. 

Matt: Why are you going into a different character when you do that? 

Lauren: I don't know. 

Matt: Who is that? 

Lauren: Some flighty high school manic pixie dream girl wannabe. I don't know. 

Matt: That was a whole lot of words. 

Lauren: It was a whole lot of words.

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: But I have done a full 180 on that, where I can't write so much as… I can't write the outline for a podcast episode without outlining the outline first. Like I am now very, very pro outline. And that was something that really, like, it took one of my friends in grad school being like, no, you got to try doing it this way or like you, have to trust me. You are never - it's very it's one thing to write a short story without an outline. It's another thing to write a book without an outline. And you really have to sit down and try this. So.

Matt:  I can't write anything without an outline. 

Lauren: Right. And I, if I hadn't been pushed that way, I - it would have taken me a lot longer to figure that out. So if there's something that you heard in this episode that you're like, I could see how that works, but I just - I don't think it would work for me. Try it anyway. Try it a couple of times. And if you're still like, nope, hate this. 

Okay, you tried it. Maybe you learned something else from it that you can apply in a different way and then move on. That is - with so many of the things that we talk about on here. This is a customized experience for everybody. I don't, I'm not normally a big fan of blanket “this is how to create a writing habit,” like very structured, rigid - 

Matt: You're doing it again, whose voice was that?

Lauren: I don't know. Because I do think that it is something that is very unique to the individual person. So take some tips, take some advice, listen to this, read some blog posts, look at journals, like writing journals or writing coaches’ advice or whatever, and customize a routine that works for you, that fits who you are as a person, and fits your lifestyle, and fits your writing goals. Just as long as you have them. Because that's really the important part is that you have to have goals. 

Matt: Word count goals. 

Lauren: Yeah, I'm pro word count goals. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Or streaks. 

Matt: That one's weird. 

Lauren: I’m pro streaks. 

Matt: I can't. I'm too old for streaks. 

Lauren: Okay, well, you're not a Tamagotchi. 

Matt: My sisters had those things, they were great.

Lauren:  I wasn't a big fan of them actually, I had one. I had an angel Tamagotchi and then as soon as it died I was like well this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me I'm never having another one of these ever again.

Matt: I distinctly remember on one occasion, I don't remember which sister it was and I'm sorry Angie or Marisa whichever one of you it was, but I tried to kill their Tamagotchi. Well, cause I just wanted to see what would happen.

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: It didn't work. 

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: But I was just like, man, these things, like, how do you keep them from existing? Can you open it up, take the battery out? 

Lauren: Oh, you really tried to. 

Matt: Yeah, I was trying to push buttons like.

Lauren: Like, wow. 

Matt: I figured some sequence of buttons would cause it to no longer exist. And then when that didn't work, I was like, well, maybe I can just pull the battery out. I want to see what happens. But nothing. It may have messed it up. I don't know. And I may have just done myself in to one of my sisters for something that was never noticed anyways. But either way, it's long enough now.

Lauren: The statute of limitations has passed on this one?

Matt: Yes. The sibling statute of limitations. 

Lauren: All right. Well, if you have any advice on how to kill a Tamagotchi, do not email us. But if you are setting yourself a challenge or if you're going to take us up on our challenge to write a book in 2025 and you want to let somebody know, you want to let two strangers on the Internet know so that you have a little bit of accountability, send us an email at podcast@lulu.com and let us know that you're going to write a book this year.

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: Why not? 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Could be fun. 

Matt: Sure. 

Lauren: And maybe we'll remember to check in on our own writing progress. Stay tuned. We'll see what happens. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But until then, good luck. Stop procrastinating and go write something. 

Matt: Yep. Later. 

Lauren: Thanks for listening.