Lauren: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Publish & Prosper. It is episode 49 and I think we're going to get a little spicy on this one.  

Matt: Why do you think that? 

Lauren: Well, the topic for today's episode is the New York Times best-seller list and how self published authors…

Matt: Rarely. 

Lauren: Rarely. I was gonna…

Matt: Never say never.

Lauren: True, never say never… but how difficult it is for a self-published author to make the New York Times list. 

Matt: So we're going to talk about why that is. 

Lauren: We're going to talk about why that is. 

Matt: Got it. 

Lauren: And I think that this is something that you and I both probably have a lot of opinions on. I'm just guessing here, but I have a feeling it's going to get a little interesting. 

Matt: I have a feeling the last few friends that we have in publishing are about to leave us. 

Lauren: Well. Personally, I'm going to make the claim that we're not going to say anything in this episode that is untrue. 

Matt: Well that’s true, yeah. 

Lauren: We are just going to say things that people might not want to hear. 

Matt: That's absolutely fair. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: 100%. Yeah. I mean, we're not going to say things that aren't true for sure. 

Lauren: No. 

Matt: But sometimes we're a little freer with our opinions. And when it comes to things where people are potentially by and large blocked from entry - 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: - because of some silly things, then yeah, we'll get a little spicy about that. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: Yeah. I'm sure it's going to be great. 

Matt: Of course. 

Lauren: They're always great. Obviously. Matt’s like no comment. 

Matt: Well, according to my mom, they're always great. 

Lauren: Shout out to everyone that is still listening to this podcast. Maybe at the end of this episode, shout out to everyone that is still listening. 

Matt: Yeah, if they are. 

Lauren: No, it's fine. We're going to share some hard truths, and that's okay.

Matt: Are we going to be a source of hard truth for a lot of self… I think a lot of self-published authors, they already know that the chances of being on the New York Times best-seller list are slim to none. They might not be aware of all the reasons why, because there's a lot of stuff out there that's not accurate about why they don't necessarily consider self-published titles, to a degree. The last time I researched this, I did find a lot of inaccurate information.

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: And then I found a bunch of helpful stuff too. But ultimately I think people should understand the reality of why more than likely they won't get on the New York Times best-seller list, and whether or not it's even really a big deal or not for a lot of people. 

Lauren: So I think that that's the thing that I'm going to say, like the hard truth stance that I am going to take on here is not necessarily like, oh, it's really hard for self-published authors to get on the New York Times best-seller list, but rather it doesn't matter.

Matt: I used to say that too, and I stopped.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: Because at an event one time I did have somebody come up to me and very nicely, by the way say, you know, you shouldn't say that it doesn't matter as a blanket statement. And she was very transparent and truthful. And she said, listen, the only reason why I ever wanted to write a book was to just get on the NYT list and be famous. So if that's your only goal, then yeah, it does matter to you, but - and I get what you're trying to say. And I used to say that all the time.

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: And even now, honestly, like if I'm in a room of trusted friends, family, or whoever like yeah, in my opinion it doesn't matter, but that's because I think most people have different goals now for their books and why they're writing and what they're doing. But I think there's still a percentage of people out there where that's all they care about, that's all they want, and so to them yeah, it does matter. 

Lauren: That is absolutely fair and also like full disclosure it's something that I wanted for a very long time in my life. And it's something that I still probably, if it happened, if I ever see my own name on the New York Times best-seller list, I will probably - 

Matt: It's probably a typo. 

Lauren: It's going to have my, well, first of all, everyone spells my last name wrong all the time. So it's probably going to have a typo in it anyway, even if it's meant to be there. But I, yeah, no, I would cry my eyes out and then probably go buy paper copies of the list and cut it out and frame it. Like I'm not, I'm not discounting the people that have the dream of, of achieving that success. I think that's very reasonable and I understand that's why a lot of people get into publishing and writing and that's, that is a huge milestone achievement that people want to have in their life. What I mean when I say it doesn't matter is that you can still achieve incredible success as a self-published author without having your name on the New York Times best-seller list. 

Matt: Yeah, a hundred percent for sure. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: And I think based on what you just said too, like I was thinking about how we, you know, we talk about behind the scenes when you talk about marketing or business or other things, you know, we'll talk about things sometimes that are leading indicators of success and then trailing indicators. To me, being on the New York Times best-seller list is just a trailing indicator of success you've already achieved. It's just more validation to a degree. And again, I understand why - myself included - a lot of people at times or consistently say it doesn't matter, because it is for the most part just another pat on the back, a piece of vanity for people to say I've arrived, but you've actually already arrived prior to that. 

If you make the list, that means you've been selling a ton of copies across, you know, a wide array of retailers and we'll get into all this. It's a trailing indicator. It's not the leading indicator. It's not the thing that says… I don't know. Yeah, as I think people are already learning. Yes, you and I are very opinionated on the New York Times best-seller list and its, I guess, barrier to entry for anybody who's not published by the top five, the traditional five publishing houses. What do your bracelets say today? 

Lauren: What do - uh. My bracelets say, I Love You I'm Sorry, Sad Girl Autumn, and Old Habits Die Screaming.

Matt: Are we technically in autumn? We're in fall or we're in winter now, aren't we? 

Lauren: I mean, I do - 

Matt: We're in full blown winter. That bracelet's wrong. Autumn, that's long gone, right? 

Lauren: That's, well, okay. I think December. Isn't the winter equinox in December? 

Matt: There's more seasons that I thought we actually even had space for, so I don't understand. 

Lauren: I mean, that's totally fair, but no, for me, fall is until Thanksgiving and then winter starts. So.

Matt: So where's autumn? 

Lauren: Autumn and fall are the same thing. 

Matt: They're the same thing? 

Lauren: Yeah, of course they are. 

Matt: Oh, see, I've actually talked to people who say they're two separate seasons. 

Lauren: Pardon?

Matt: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think there's too many. Like for me, there's summer and there's winter and that's it. 

Lauren: Well, you're from Florida, so.  

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: What do you mean? 

Matt: There's summer and there's winter. There's, there's everything above 60 or 65 degrees and everything below that. 

Lauren: You just have, is it rainy season or is it sweatshirt season? 

Matt: No. It's warm or cold. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: In Florida, we don't even, the rain doesn't matter. You know that.

Lauren: That’s true. 

Matt: Like, as a Disney aficionado, you know that. 

Lauren: That is, that is very true. 

Matt: It's gonna rain every day. 

Lauren: It’s always rainy season. 

Matt: It's usually only for about 60 seconds to potentially if it's hurricane season, an hour or two, but like it's gonna rain almost every day. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: So we don't even, that's not even a thing. It's either is it warm or is it cold? 

Lauren: That's true. 

Matt: So summer or winter. So this fall, autumn, especially if they're considered the same thing, and then spring and then some other equinox stuff you were just talking about and all kinds of like, is the moon in the upper rising house of autumn. 

Lauren: I don't know what any - 

Matt: The elder emo scrolls. 

Lauren: I don't know anything about that. Don't look at me like that. 

Matt: Yeah, I'm just, I'm over that. I'm over winter already. I'm ready for summer. 

Lauren: Okay, well the winter solstice is...

Matt: What is that? 

Lauren: Is December 21st. 

Matt: What kind of witchery is that? 

Lauren: The winter solstice. It's the shortest day of the year, right? Or it's like the, not the shortest day. It's the day that it's like the shortest period of sunlight. Like sunrise is the latest and sunset is the earliest of any day of the year on the winter solstice. 

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: And then it starts expanding out again. I don't know. I don’t know.

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: Whatever. This is not relevant. 

Matt: I still think it's weird to have a bracelet that says something about autumn. Sad girl autumn.

Lauren: I really didn't think that was going to be the thing of that bracelet that you commented on. 

Matt: Oh, well, sad girl part's obvious. Old habits die screaming. That's, you've worn that one before.

Lauren: Yes, I have. It's one of my favorite ones. 

Matt: I got zero notes on that one. 

Lauren: That's okay. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Okay. We learned something about autumn and fall and something about your soul. 

Lauren: Maybe.

Matt: Solstice. Solstay? 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: Solstice. 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: Winter solstice. 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: Solstice. 

Lauren: Not to be confused with the winter soldier. 

Matt: Ugh. The least favorite of mine. 

Lauren: My favorite. 

Matt: Really? 

Lauren: Yes. Absolutely. 

Matt: We've already wasted ten minutes. 

Lauren: I know.

Matt: I don't want to get into this. 

Lauren: I'm so sorry. 

Matt: That doesn't surprise me. 

Lauren: This was actually the argument that I had in my interview for Lulu. 

Matt: Wait, I thought Loki was your favorite. 

Lauren: Yes, but he's not an Avenger. 

Matt: Ah, I see how you're breaking this up. I just meant that whole sort of world...

Lauren: Yeah. I also was late to the Loki game. Like I didn't really, I didn't appreciate the Loki hype in the first few Thor movies. It really wasn't until later on. I was already well committed to Sebastian Stan's Bucky Barnes. 

Matt: Gotcha.

Lauren: By the time I converted to being a Loki girl, so. 

Matt: Makes sense. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

[8:55]

Lauren: Anyway, the New York Times list. I feel like this is pretty common knowledge, but just in case. quick overview. The New York Times list is a weekly compilation of the highest selling books in select categories as tracked and published by the New York Times. There are a lot of categories, which I feel like is maybe something that's a little bit lesser known. 

There are three adult fiction lists, four adult nonfiction lists, two middle grade, two young adult, a picture books, children's series, and five or six one-off monthly lists as well. So like, business, graphic novels, audiobook, nonfiction audiobook, stuff like that. So there's actually a lot going on here. They also then split them out into combined print and ebook, hardcover, and paperback. Lots of different lists. There's lots going on here. 

Matt: Well, so. 

Lauren: What? Go ahead.

Matt: Hold on a second. 

Lauren: Go ahead. 

Matt: Just so people understand, why is there so much weight put on this list? Like why is it so prestigious, important - there are other best-seller lists, by the way.

Lauren: Yeah there are. 

Matt: There used to be a lot more. 

Lauren: There are a lot of other best-seller lists. 

Matt: Well there used to be a lot more, but there's - I mean. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: There's still a handful of ones that people care about, but why is this the one? What - why should people care? How long has this thing been around, whatever, whatever? Okay.

Lauren: I mean. 

Matt: So. 

Lauren: Well - it's about a hundred years old, right?

Matt: It started in 1931, yeah. 

Lauren: And the New York Times in general is a world famous newspaper with significant clout.

Matt: Because yes, their longevity in the game, in the world of news and newspapers and print and just in general, they've always had a strong focus on literary topics, subjects, authors and books in general. They've had a lot of famous people that have written for them in the past or worked for the New York Times. So it's always had this strong foothold in the literary world, and it's been around for obviously quite some time. So I just wanted people to have context again, for those who maybe don't quite understand this or what we're talking about or why it's important. So it's a big deal for people. 

Lauren: It is a big deal. Even like, a lot of bookstores will use the New York Times list as you know, we're gonna have a separate section in the store, we're highlighting or we're featuring books that are on the best-seller list. We're gonna use this as an indicator to kind of let us know what's popular right now. We're going to have more copies of this book in stock because it's on the best-seller list. The store that I worked at and a lot of other stores that I've seen will do a little bit of a discount on the books that are on the best-seller list. 

Matt: That seems counterintuitive actually. 

Lauren: It does. 

Matt: I didn't know that, by the way. 

Lauren: It does. 

Matt: Why would you discount something that's clearly going to sell? 

Lauren: That's a great question. 

Matt: Because it's on the list. 

Lauren: That is a great question. 

Matt: Oh, okay.

Lauren: I realized that everything that I just said there is kind of a direct contradiction to my earlier point that it doesn't matter if you're on the list or not. But to me, the promotion that you'll get out of being on the best-seller list is still like - you had to be making those sales already -

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: - in order to get on the list in the first place. 

Matt: That’s right. Yeah. 

Lauren: So it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: I think we're getting ahead of ourselves here a little bit. One of the things that I learned about while I was outlining this episode and doing research for this episode was that the Times once actually made a case, like legally in a courtroom, made a case where they argued that the list is not mathematically objective, but rather an editorial product. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: So as -

Matt: Cause they were getting sued. 

Lauren: Right. By the author of the Exorcist 3, I believe? Something, whatever it was, it was something they were getting sued for not including a specific title on the list despite the sales. And the argument that they made was that it is not exclusively based on straight up math and sales numbers, but is more of an editorial product that is influenced by sales numbers, but also influenced by other things. In order to talk about that, we need to talk a little bit about what we're actually talking about when we're saying sales numbers, and what they mean when they say best-selling books and stuff like that. And - 

Matt: Oh, you're right. William Peter Blatty. 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: He tried to sue them for six mil. 

Lauren: I thought you'd like that fact. So even though I didn't put it in the outline, I made a mental note about it. The exact process for how the list is determined is proprietary information that is not publicly known. And it is a well guarded secret. And we probably will never know it. And that's probably because of controversies like this, where they want to be able to defend their right to choose not to include certain books. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And also because they want to make it very difficult for people to game the system, which they do. People have tried many times to game the system and buy their way onto the New York Times list. 

Matt: Which I mean… That's a good argument and that's - like any business trying to protect something like that. I get that, but the suspicion there, or what people really think is going on, is by having an editorial process that overlaps the sales number process or the algorithm and methodology to potentially weed out people trying to game the system. What they're really doing is again, still kind of just handpicking and playing favorites and doing things like that, so. 

Lauren: They will even actually, if you look at an actual copy of the list, they have a symbol that they use to indicate books that they are suspicious of the sales reports. 

Matt: Isn't that the little dagger? 

Lauren: It's the little dagger on there. So it's like this great little, I mean, I, as a petty queen, I absolutely love and respect pettiness of any kind. But this is, it's very petty the way they do like, we'll include this on here, but we want to publicly let everybody know that we're suspicious of the sales numbers for this book.

Matt: I love that it's a dagger. 

Lauren: I know, right?. 

Matt: Like, a little knife. 

Lauren: It's really, it's great. I'll give them props for that one for sure. 

Matt: I guess. 

Lauren: Yeah. Despite the fact that their method for reporting this data and collecting this data is not publicly known, we do know some things. I linked all of my sources for this in the show notes, if you're curious about this, including directly from the New York Times About the Best-Sellers page.

Matt: Oh. 

Lauren: So this is not exclusively hearsay, or whatever. Like some of this is coming straight from the New York Times. 

Matt: Straight from the horse's mouth. 

Lauren: Yep, exactly. So the sales data that they use for figuring out book sales is collected weekly from a sample of bookstores. And this is one of the number one roadblocks that you're going to find as a self-published author, which we will talk more about that later. But they are getting their sales numbers from chain bookstores, independent bookstores, and wholesalers. But they are very specifically focused on a diverse variety of different retailers. They don't want sales numbers all coming from one retailer. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: They're also going to actually weight physical bookstore sales heavier than online sales. 

Matt: I think the caveat here, and correct me if I'm wrong, is in instances where both will count just as heavily as an online retailer that has a physical presence. So, and I think most of what they look at these days is what's sold in Barnes & Noble and BarnesAndNoble.com, Target and Target.com, Walmart and Walmart.com, and like one or two other major retailers that have a physical and online presence. 

Lauren: Yes. They will do that, but then they will also include indie bookstore data and it is not every indie bookstore. So they're getting a sampling of data that is not every single store. 

Matt: Right.

Lauren: They are looking for a representative sample, yes.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, because that would be too cumbersome. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: And I mean, and I get that like, as people who deal with data a lot, if they tried to pull data from all, I mean, they could choose the major retailers, which they do. But if they tried to pull from all retailers that had a physical presence and or online presence like that would just be too…

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: Too cumbersome, and they might not even be able to get their hands on all that data on a regular basis. 

Lauren: Right. And that is - that’s part of the concern as well is that these are weekly lists - except for the ones that are monthly, which are some of the smaller, more niche lists - they are weekly, and it's weekly sales data. That's why you'll see books, they'll make the Times list on their debut week. Technically, it'll be two weeks after their debut because it takes that long for somebody to hit the list. 

Matt: With the exception of pre-orders, pre-sales. 

Lauren: Pre-sales count on the first week of sales. 

Matt: That's what I'm saying. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: That's why you'll see such a strong showing on first week, even if actual store sales won't get counted for a couple of weeks. 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: They've got a strong pre-order presence. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: On some online retailer. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So yeah, that's where that comes in. And then maintaining status on the list means that you have to maintain that level of sale. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: Which a lot of authors don't do. So a lot of authors will hit the list on their first week and then fall off of it and never get back up there, because they were relying heavily on that boost from pre-orders and launch day sales to give them the boost they needed to get up on that list. 

Matt: Which, for those who actually care about being on the NYT list, they've done what they need to do. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Once you can say you're on the list, then you've accomplished your goal. Those that stay up there for weeks and months on end, Colleen Hoover, some of those, I would argue they don't care. Because again, that's a trailing indicator. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Just the sheer volume of books they're selling. And they already know that. So again, it's not the, I mean, it's probably a nice flex to be able to say I was a 27 week running, you know, New York best, times, whatever, author for this one book. But I don't know, at that point, you just kind of sound like an asshole. Sorry.

Lauren: We'll see if I leave that in or not. 

Matt: I said what I said. 

Lauren: Yeah, but I - no, I agree with that. I think that really what you're looking for in the accolade is really just hitting that one week of sales. 

Matt: If that's your thing, then yeah, that's the thing. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Now you can say you're an NYT best-seller. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: And it is something, I mean, it's something that I try to stay, you know, I try to keep it in mind when I have authors that I love that I want to support, whether it's friends of mine that are published or just authors that I know I love their work, I'm always going to buy their books. Even if I know I'm not going to read it anytime soon because I'm not in the mood for this type of genre right now, or I'm really busy right now, I always try to buy a new book the week that it comes out. Because even if I think that it's not the end all be all to be on the New York Times list, I want to support these authors and friends in their efforts to get on the list. And I know that that week is the most important week for their sales. That's just me being silly. It's okay. 

Matt: No, I don't think that's silly. I think in the off chance you know somebody, friend or favorite author, that is launching and or just launched and is at NYT status and you want to support them, great. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: There's nothing wrong with that. We're not really talking about that, we're talking about the motivations to get on that list.

Lauren: Right.

Matt: And you know why it may or may not be something you'll ever achieve depending on how you publish. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And to… not to continue to discourage, because we will talk about what all this means for self-published authors, but as we're talking about sales data, sales numbers, things like that. When we're actually talking about the numbers - again, no one knows exact specifics because we don't know what is being considered when they're considering books for the New York Times list. The range of what we're talking about in book sales of how many books you have to sell to make it onto the list, can be anywhere between 1,000 to 10,000 sales in a week. It's going to depend on what genre it is. Like I said earlier, there are a bunch of different lists. Some of the lists are a lot more competitive than the other ones are. It's also going to depend who your competitors are in any given week. If you're writing adult paperback romance and you have a book that comes out the same week that Colleen Hoover or Emily Henry has a new book coming out - although they both get published in hardcover now, but they were originally publishing paperback first. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: You're going to have to sell a lot more copies of your book that week. And you will see if you've ever looked at why a publication date changed for a book that you were looking forward to, that it's being traditionally published and you're like, oh, I saw that the date got changed. It might be because they're trying to avoid somebody else's book that's coming out that same week. 

Matt: Yeah, I mean, that's a fair statement, too. Potentially because for the traditional publishers the list just represents more sales and more money. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: So they're gonna be very strategic about when they release based on who else might be going on the list or who's already on the list. Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: No, that makes sense. I get it.

Lauren: Yeah. And another thing that I came across when I was doing this… there was a an EPJ Data Science study a few years ago, it was - look. 

Matt: EPJ data science? 

Lauren: I don't know. I don’t know. 

Matt: Was this AI generated? 

Lauren: No

Matt: The stat?

Lauren: No, I found it on one of the articles that I was reading about this. 

Matt: The EPJ Data Center. Sounds like a made up company. 

Lauren: I don't know. 

Matt: I'm going to Google this while you’re talking. 

Lauren: Go ahead. This was a stat about traditionally published books in a range of time, but it basically said that under 0.5% of books published in a year make it onto the New York Times list. And of that 0.5%, under 0.5%, a quarter of those are only on the list for their first week. And that's it. 

Matt: Yeah?

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: It looks like EPJ is also a subsidiary of Springer, so it's legit. 

Lauren: Legit? Okay. I'm glad. 

Matt: Academic, open journals, things like that. 

Lauren: Great. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: All right. 

Matt: That's a pretty reverse impressive number, by the way. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I'm not quite sure how to phrase that, but it's bad enough the amount of people that they do not accept into traditional publishing. But when you talk about New York Times best-seller and half of 1% of all traditionally published titles mostly make it to the list. 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: That's a tiny, tiny number. 

Lauren: Pretty grim, honestly. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But… yeah. 

[22:05] 

Matt: Well, let's talk about why. 

Lauren: Yeah. Okay. There are a lot of reasons, honestly. 

Matt: Well. 

Lauren: As if the ones that we all just have listed right now wasn’t enough. 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: Like. 

Matt: Well, let's go through those. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: And the first one is going to be the obvious that when you self-publish a book, there are distribution channels that you can get your book into. The obvious is Amazon, for those of you that have been self-publishing for a little while or done your homework, you know that you can also put your book into Ingram's distribution channel. That's the one that will get you into, you know, libraries and bookstores all over the place. Well, online bookstores and things all over the place. Then there's other smaller channels, mainly for ebook, but there's some other ones. The problem is that there's no real reliable way to get a self-published book onto the bookshelves of actual physical bookstores for the most part.
 
And even if you're lucky enough to get it on the shelf at a local bookstore, whether that's indie or even your local Barnes & Noble, or if you're somewhere outside of the US, Waterstones or some of those others, it's still not going to be on the shelves of enough quote unquote diverse retailers - which is their language - in order to qualify for those metrics. Which is unfortunate. But that's the number one thing that's going to stop a self-published author is based sheerly on that fact alone. The way that the New York Times best-seller list pulls that sales data, you're not going to be represented in most of those channels or outlets. You're not going to be selling thousands of copies in a Target, or in a Barnes & Noble, or even a Walmart, or somewhere like that. 

Lauren: And specifically to what you just said there, not a Barnes & Noble - 

Matt: Right.

Lauren: - or Target or Walmart, but multiple - 

Matt: That’s right. 

Lauren: - Barnes & Nobles or Targets or Walmarts.

Matt: And the flip side to that, or not the flip side, but I think what's ironic here is that even us, the reason why this whole topic even came up is we have customers at Lulu, we have people that use our services. They sell tens of thousands of units per month. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I mean, crazy amounts of books per month through other channels, whether that's direct, you know, on their own websites or whatever, through other, but it will never ever qualify. Because those tens of thousands of units per month are not spread across, you know, major retailers, Target and Barnes & Noble and some of the others. And that alone kind of makes the whole system sound like a hot dumpster fire. 

Lauren: Yeah. Well, and one of the other things that I learned about when I was looking into this was that um, we talked about the benefits of selling direct. We are very big advocates for selling direct. I think the benefits of that outweigh any benefit that you could possibly get from being on the New York Times best-seller list by a long shot. But two reasons that selling direct would pretty much automatically disqualify you from making the New York Times list. Number one, because you are considered then just one retailer. So all of your sales would be coming from…

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: - one retailer. 

Matt: So again, not a diverse group of retailers. 

Lauren: Right. But number two, I got this from the New York Times list. One of the things that they consider a requirement for a book to qualify for the list is that it has “satisfied commonly accepted industry standards of universal identification such as an ISBN code.” So if your book doesn't have an ISBN, which you do not need in order to sell direct, you're disqualified for making the list. 

Matt: Yeah. I mean, that's whatever. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: That's an easy hoop to jump through, but I agree. I mean - 

Lauren: But still, yeah. 

Matt: Actually, I mean, they have to have that to track that sales data. But yeah, I think the bigger issue is yes, it's the ISBN number for sure, but back to direct sales. Reporting those, I guess, would be hard because even with an ISBN selling direct, you're not actually reporting your sales to any governing body. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: Or aggregator of sales data. I mean, I guess they're getting that sales data directly from Barnes & Noble and Target and all the others, right? 

Lauren: Well, yeah, they're getting it from from book retailers. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: But that's still just being, that's like just weekly sales reporting.

Matt: Well that’s no difference then if you sell - Well, I guess the difference is they're not self reporting as an author. They're self reporting as a retailer. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: If you sell direct and you self report, you’re self reporting - 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: - as the author, so it’s like -  

Lauren: Yeah I sold - 

Matt: - fox in the hen house type of thing. 

Lauren: - Yep. I sold 10,000 copies of my book last week. 

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Lauren: Prove that I didn't. 

Matt: Well, I mean, they could require that you submit, you know, your sales, your order data, but I guess it's still to verify. Okay. Well, whatever. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Still dumb. 

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It - it's all. Yeah. Another reason that you might, if you're self-publishing, and another reason that some of the people that are using Lulu would be disqualified from hitting the New York Times list, is if your sales are even just slightly different editions of a book. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So, like if you're using our API to print bespoke editions of books. 

Matt: That’s right. 

Lauren: Even if it's absolutely the exact same book over and over and over again - 

Matt: Personalized. 

Lauren: - and the only difference is that it's personalized with somebody's name on it - 

Matt: That’s right, yeah. 

Lauren: - those are technically different books. 

Matt: Yeah. So if one page, like the first page has somebody's name on it.

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: There's a company where their books, you can actually customize it or personalize it and say, this book is for… whatever my son, Josh. And then that book gets printed with Josh's name on that first page as a gift to Josh, whatever, whatever that one component forever disqualifies you.

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Because your book sales are technically never greater than one, because you are selling one copy of each of these slightly distinct books. 

Matt: Yeah. Again, unfortunate. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: But at the end of the day, for those types of books and book businesses, NYT best-seller lists shouldn't really matter. I mean, they're doing something that's a little bit different there, but it still seems a bit silly. But I mean, I guess what do you expect from something that's been around since 1931 and they haven't changed a single bit since then? 

Lauren: Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Matt: Yeah, but there's a lot of stuff like that, I guess, that falls outside of the acceptable categories for them. So right now, things that are really big are like health and wellness books, cookbooks, things like that, where there is customization or personalization. There are things that don't get tracked, like… stuff like workbooks and things, they don't really get tracked, but they sell tens of thousands of copies of certain types of workbooks, and journals, and…

Lauren: This is directly from, again, the New York Times website: among the categories not actively tracked at this time are perennial sellers, required classroom reading, textbooks, reference and test preparation guides, ebooks available exclusively from a single vendor - which is basically just a nice way of saying Kindle Unlimited. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Journals, workbooks, calorie counters, shopping guides, periodicals, and crossword puzzles. Journals and workbooks alone. Like that's a - if you're just completely disregarding that entirely, that's like a huge amount of Lulu book sales, we see some authors that have really, really, really phenomenal success with their workbooks and journals. 

Matt: Yeah. Whatever. It's their circus. 

Lauren: Yeah, it is their circus. And yeah, I guess there's really… this is circling back to that court case. Which again, if you think about it, that the relevance of that being that the book was the Exorcist 3 that they were arguing over, like it was clearly them being like, well, this isn't highbrow literature enough to make our lists. So we just don’t care. 

Matt: Well, that's what I was saying earlier too. Like this whole idea that yeah, it's not based mostly or solely on numbers, there's an editorial process at play. That's their nice way of saying A. you can't sue us because it's not based solely on numbers and how we report and collect those, but B. there's some editorial stuff here in the works. But you read between the lines and that's… yeah, it didn't really fit what we thought was highbrow enough literature. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: Which Exorcist 3 arguably is like… But nonetheless like, you know, still. Who are they to say? 

Lauren: Yeah. And I do think that that's, that's gone away a little bit. We've seen some - there have, first of all, there have been self-published books that have made... I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. 

Matt: Right. Do you think your girl's book is going to make the list when it comes out on Black Friday?

Lauren: Yes. Yes I do. 

Matt: What category will it fall in? 

Lauren: It's got to be adult nonfiction hardcover, right? 

Matt: Because it's a picture book, right? 

Lauren: It's like a photo… 

Matt: It’s a…

Lauren: A photo book. 

Matt: A photo - Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. I guess we'll see. So I also - 

Matt: Well, it’s only being sold at Target, though, right? 

Lauren: Oh, so - yeah, maybe not. Maybe it won’t. 

Matt: Here's where we put this shit the test. 

Lauren: Ooh. 

Matt: If that book makes the list and it's only sold at Target. 

Lauren: Then they're directly denying their own -  

Matt: That's right. 

Lauren: Guidelines. 

Matt: That's right. 

Lauren: Editorial decision. 

Matt: Editorial decision. That's right. 

Lauren: Okay, well. Yeah. We'll see. I believe that the timeline for a book appearing on the list is two weeks after it comes out. Which also for the record, her book is breaking traditional publishing guidelines already in the sense that - 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: - it's coming out on a Friday and books are released on Tuesdays. So normally a book comes out on Tuesday, all the pre-order sales and then that first week of sales Tuesday to Sunday are counted. And then I think it's usually the Sunday after that, that an author will find out if their book made the list for their debut week. So then it's like a, you know, it's the first week of sales and then a week of processing the sales and then making the list.

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So we'll find out like mid-December. So I will, uh, I'll keep an eye on that and report back. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But yeah, I don't know. I don't actually, I'm really not sure. I think I would be kind of surprised if they didn't in some way. 

Matt: Yeah, I don't know how you could… 

Lauren: How you could not. 

Matt: Right. There's no way it's not going to just smash sales numbers. And yeah, it'll be interesting to see if they try to take the moral high ground there and stick to their code, or their credo, their criteria. Or if they just say screw it like, this sold a ton of copies and you know, it's kind of self-published but kind of not. There's a gray area there where they could kind of point back to that too and say well, there's a lot of stuff going on around a lot of variables with this publication that make it a special case for them where they could kind of bend their own rules. Which is ultimately what will probably happen. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: But whatever.

Lauren: Yeah, I mean they get to make the final call on that, and the rest of us get to decide whether or not it matters. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Well, she sure as hell won't care. It's not the goal.

Lauren: No. Definitely not. She'll be busy anyway. That the weekend that the book comes out as the same weekend or - no. It’s Thanksgiving.

Matt: She'll be busy responding to your emails. 

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: In her inbox. 

Lauren: Oh my God. I would never, I would throw myself off a building before I like bombarded a celebrity with any kind of like pay attention to me - 

Matt: A Lego building or a real building? 

Lauren: A real building. I would be impressed with a Lego building that could hold my weight though. That would be a good build. 

Matt: I could do it. 

Lauren: I'm sure you could. Do you own enough Legos for that to happen? 

Matt: Not anymore. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: My kids are at that age now where they don't, they didn't care about Lego, so we got rid of a lot. 

Lauren: That’s so sad. 

Matt: But at one point, we had a ridiculous amount. I probably could have built you a building that would have held you. Now if you jumped off it, you might have hurt your elbow or something, but you wouldn't… 

Lauren: I was also a very big Lego kid, so I had a lot of Legos growing up. 

Matt: I would be surprised if you don't still have Legos in your apartment somewhere. 

Lauren: Well, you know I have the Cinderella Castle Lego set. 

Matt: I do know that. 

Lauren: And... 

Matt: Haunted Mansion? 

Lauren: I don't have the Haunted Mansion, because I'm holding out the hope that they will do a Florida version, because they've only done the California house. Which is beautiful. 

Matt: Hey, did I not give you a Haunted Mansion Lego set? The smaller one. Remember the small ones that came out? 

Lauren: I don't think you did. 

Matt: I think I did, but… Anyways, I'm not holding out hope for the Florida one. 

Lauren: No, you gave me a mini, it was the mini Cinderella's Castle. So I have the big Cinderella's Castle, I have like the three foot one. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: And then you gave me the mini Cinderella's Castle Lego set. 

Matt: Oh, I thought I gave you the mini haunted house, or Haunted Mansion. 

Lauren: No, I think you have that one. 

Matt: I do. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: I have a couple of them. 

Lauren: Well, now you know what to get me for Christmas this year. 

Matt: I think I got it for you for Christmas last year and forgot to give it to you. Cause I, I mean, that was the purpose of buying a couple of them. 

Lauren: Of course it was. 

Matt: Okay. Well, now you know what you're getting this year for Christmas. 

Lauren: Can't wait. 

Matt: Yeah. 

[33:27]

Matt: Okay, so just to reiterate though, the reason why Lauren and I say often - not always in mixed company, but… at least when we're in the company of like minds - that the list doesn't matter, is because most people are writing books for other reasons. And that NYT best-seller status, again for people who are self-publishing or writing for different purposes, it's not really a thing that matters to them. It doesn't affect the bottom line of what they're doing. And for traditionally published authors it's nothing against them, or that, but it doesn't mean anything other than it's a vanity play. It's a little gold sticker to put on your thing. Which is all fine and good, but… In the world of self-publishing, there are other goals. There are other reasons why people are writing and publishing books. Especially these days, it's to build a brand, or monetize content that they've already been creating in other forms, or a whole host of other reasons. But even in the world of self-published fiction, I mean, people are really getting smart at mastering their own algorithms and how to make a really good living off of publishing - self-publishing fiction and leading a perfectly happy life without ever worrying about the NYT coming and knocking on their door with a big gold ribbon for, you know, making one of the lists. But outside of that, there are other best-seller lists, right? 

Lauren: There are. I'm going to make Matt's blood boil a little bit because I'm going to say that I think that for self-published authors and particularly self-published fiction authors, but nonfiction too, hitting the top of the Amazon charts is probably more important for your sales and discoverability than hit the New York Times list would be. 

Matt: So I agree with that. 

Lauren: Whoa. Okay. 

Matt: Yes. If.

Lauren: All right.

Matt: If that's your channel of choice, and that's how you choose to throw your traffic away is by sending it to Amazon. So yes, in that respect, I do agree with that because here's the other thing, by the way. The only way you're getting any discoverability on Amazon, there's only two ways you're gonna get that. That's it. You can argue this with me all you want and I'll show you the data to back it up. There's only two ways that you're gonna get discoverability on Amazon. And one is you're paying for it. 

Lauren: Yep. 

Matt: You're buying Amazon ads or some of the other things that you can do. Two is that you hit best-seller status in one of the main categories and genres, right? They've already reduced the amount you you're able to put. So you used to be able to choose like ten categories and subcategories and everybody would hit best-seller status in some obscure random… and that's how they game the system and you were able to say you were an Amazon best-seller. Now they've limited you to three, but even then, it's actually not that complicated to do it on Amazon. So it is losing any luster it had as like, an actual accomplishment. And it's nothing more than a way to game the discoverability engine on Amazon. So if Amazon is your main channel and that's where you choose to sell your books and drive all your traffic, A. sorry about your bad luck, but B. you better start investing in some Amazon ads so you can hit best-seller status on Amazon, cause that's the only way you're going to get discoverability. So I do agree with you there. 

Lauren: Yeah. I'll take it. 

Matt: Okay.

Lauren: There are also other lists too. I mean, most of the other major newspapers and media outlets in the country still do lists like this. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So, you know, Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times - which I definitely wrote as Lost Angeles Times in this outline, just noticed that. 

Matt: Got Lost Bros on the mind? 

Lauren: Always. 

Matt: Did you get their Black Friday email when you were writing this? Is that what happened? 

Lauren: I probably did. I have been - their - I'm about to spend so much money on their shirts. They've got some really good shirts coming out this week. It's fine. The Washington Post does a list too, but there's also, you know, the more specific, like dedicated - Publishers Weekly and Indie Bestsellers that are coming from book outlets. USA Today also does a weekly best-seller list that is a little bit more commercial focused. 

Matt: I thought that one stopped, no? It's still going? 

Lauren: I think it's still going?

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: There are a lot that have started and stopped. And there's also, in October of 2023, Jane Friedman, who does The Hot Sheet. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: In partnership with BookStat launched a specifically self-publishing focused best-seller list. So it's a monthly lists of self-published ebooks, self-published print books, and hidden gems. 

Matt: And where's that data coming from? 

Lauren: I think that's coming from BookStat. 

Matt: And where's BookStat getting it? Do we know? 

Lauren: That's a great question. 

Matt: Like, is it all Amazon data and that's it? 

Lauren: I hope not. 

Matt: Well, that's what most people equate self-published with, so. Especially self-published retailers. So it's either coming directly from Amazon or potentially - well, I guess it could come from other retailers too. But I don't know how BookStat would be getting their hands on it. It'd be interesting to know. Either way, that's great. I mean, somebody needed to do that. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: And give self-published authors a little bit of credit for their book sales and things like that. 

Lauren: There is also, just in case anyone's curious, there is a company that you can pull up sales data for books sold in the US. Oh, also I, we didn't say this anywhere in here, but all of this is US sales. This is not like - 

Matt: Right, yeah. 

Lauren: New York Times list is not international sales. It's only US. 

Matt: Sorry, that's a great point, yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. But there is a company called BookScan that you can access, but it is you have to have a paid membership to BookScan - 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: - in order to access. 

Matt: Circana BookScan.

Lauren: Yeah. But when you see things like that were you’re like, how are people tracking this information? There are companies that do that. I would have to look further into this BookStat thing. I remember seeing this when Jane first announced that she was doing this, and then I haven't seen a whole lot about it since. But I do have linked in the show notes here the self-published best-seller list. So if you are curious about it, go check it out. 

Matt: That's cool. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Good. 

Lauren: Yeah.

[38:46]

Lauren: I don't know. I hope we weren't too discouraging. 

Matt: I mean, there's no discouragement there. Like most people already knew if they're self-published and they're not getting on the NYT list.

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: I think, I guess to Lauren's point, we weren't really here to just dump cold water on people in the form of: these are the guidelines and the rules. It was more like, we've had questions in the past. I specifically had one of our customers write in and ask about it. And they were one that again, tens of thousands of units per month. And so they just, quite frankly, didn't know, they didn't understand why they wouldn't qualify, so it had to be explained. And in the light of that and getting these questions in the past, I just thought, you know, let's do an episode and talk about - 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: - peel back the curtain a little bit if we can. Now again, they protect some of that algorithm and that stuff. But for the most part it's - according to them and other experts, it's a pretty safe bet that if you can't get your book distributed in a diverse amount of retail bookstores that include physical locations, right out of the gate, you're going to be disqualified. You're not going to meet the criteria. And then if you do, for some reason, you have to have the required - I mean, the average is 5,000 units a week.

Lauren: Right. A week. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Emphasis on that. Yeah. 

Matt: That range of between 1,000 to 10,000 is correct because it depends on which genre you're in and which list you're trying to qualify for. But in general, especially for like the main categories that a lot of people are vying for, you know, fiction, doesn't matter. Anyways - 

Lauren: Fiction, nonfiction - 

Matt: 5,000 a week. 

Lauren: - hardcover and paperback. 

Matt: Yeah, yeah.

Lauren: Which also, again, is something to emphasize that that is not when we say 5,000 sales in a week, that is not 5,000 total sales of an individual title. That is in one format. 

Matt: Right. Yeah. 

Lauren: So that is 5,000 hardcover sales.

Matt: Of that one title. 

Lauren: In a week. Right. 

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: There is the combined lists too. So there's the lists like the adult fiction list is - 

Matt: Right.

Lauren: - hardcover paperback and print and ebook are the three lists. So there is that combined print and ebook one. But obviously that's even more competitive because you're competing with a variety of titles that are all getting included in there. 

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah, so I guess, yeah, I think it's again, not trying to be discouraging in the sense of, you know, we're discounting people that do make it onto the list. Because I think - I think that's a huge achievement, as we've just outlined all the hoops you have to jump through and…

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Things you have to do in order to be qualified for the list at all. I think it's a very cool, definitely something that I wanted in my life and wouldn't say no to if it happened to me tomorrow. I'd have to write a book first, but, you know, whatever. And also, not trying to yuck your yum if you're somebody who does want, like that is your dream and you do want to get on the list, good for you and I hope you do it. But more along the lines of: if you are bummed out about the fact that you as a self-published author have not hit the New York Times best-seller list there are a lot of things that are standing in the way of you doing that and you shouldn't feel bad about it because you've probably got a lot of other really cool opportunities either already behind you or ahead of you that are much better landmarks of success in self-publishing. 

Matt: Yeah, I think, like I said earlier, to me, I wouldn't care about the fact that I had hit New York Times best-seller lists. What I would care about is what that implied in terms of unit sales. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I'm one who would be like, great, how many books did I sell? 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: I don't care about it, that's all fine and good, but how much money did I make? 

Lauren: Right. 

Matt: How many books did I sell? To me, there's a few reasons why you write a book, and one is to make money. I think so many people are afraid to say I want to make money with my book. But I mean, you know, if you truly love writing and you want to write more than one book, you have to make money off them so that you can continue writing and not be stuck to a cubicle your whole life. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: And I don't know. Again, it's a trailing indicator to me and outside of that, it's vanity. But for people that hit it great. Nine and a half times out of ten, they're traditionally published, so their motivations are different anyways, to a degree. I don't know, whatever. 

Lauren: Yeah, no notes.

Matt: I mean, I think the only other thing I would say is if you're looking to try and replicate what your definition of success is, especially if New York Times best-seller plays a part in that criteria for defining success. If you define success as making lots of money, writing multiple books, maybe hitting NYT best-seller status, but you're self-publishing, recreating that NYT experience is going to be extremely hard if not impossible. There are other lists, like we talked about, that are more inclusive of self-publishing, you can try for those. But at the end of the day, it's shoot for the criteria, not the actual award. Kind of like kids who play sports and the trophies like, the trophies - great. It's that instant gratification. But everything you did to get that trophy is what's gonna carry you forward in the next game, not that trophy. And you're gonna get home and throw that trophy in the corner and forget about it. 

Lauren: The real treasure is the friendships we made along the way. 

Matt: Oh my god. That's terrible, dude. I don't know, man. Put in the work. 

Lauren: Yeah, yeah. And uh - 

Matt: Reap the benefits, spend the money, make more, have relationships, travel, write more, drink lots of coffee. I don't know. Anything else you want to throw in here? 

Lauren: I would like to shout out your sweatshirt before we sign off. The camera, yep, okay. For those of you that are listening and not watching, Matt did follow through on an idea that was born in a recent episode

Matt: That’s right. 

Lauren: And is wearing an Oxford Comma sweatshirt. 

Matt: Yep. 

Lauren: And it looks great. 

Matt: And thankfully Paul's actually in the office today to see it. 

Lauren: That’s - 

Matt: After he so brashly accused me of not liking the Oxford comma. 

Lauren: He did explain to me or - I don't know if he explained to you, but he told me why he submitted that question. 

Matt: I heard that explanation. I don't think it’s -  

Lauren: I think he was just being spicy for the sake of it. 

Matt: I don't think it was true, by the way.

Lauren: Well, anyway, I think we've done it here. 

Matt: Maybe I should start doing sweat - you have bracelets. I'll just do a new sweatshirt for every episode. 

Lauren: Oh, that's a great idea. 

Matt: I'll run out of ideas in like three episodes. 

Lauren: I doubt it. You wrote down like five shirt ideas when we were in Vegas alone. 

Matt: That's true. I need to find that list. 

Lauren: Yeah, you do. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah you do. Cause there were some good ones on there. 

Matt: There was. 

Lauren: Well, if you want to hear what those are or see what those are, you're going to have to come back and watch future episodes. We've got a few more coming out for this year. 

Matt: Do we? 

Lauren: Yeah, we haven't recorded them yet, but we've got a - we’ve got a few more to get through the rest of the year. We are gonna take a couple weeks off around Christmas, but we’ve still got a few more left before we toast 2024. With some actual toast, preferably, that would be great. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: I could go for -

Matt: I could go for some toast. 

Lauren: I have not eaten lunch, so I could go for a slice of bread right now. Just saying. 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: But uh, guess we’ll go do that. And in the meantime, you can always find us here, on Lulu’s YouTube, on Lulu’s social media, especially Instagram, and you can listen to all of our previous episodes, watch our videos, email us at podcast@lulu.com. If you have any questions, comments, concerns, or ideas for a sweatshirt for Matt. 

Matt: Concerns. Lots of concerns. 

Lauren: So many concerns. And I will report back on how my success with getting copy of Taylor Swift's book go. 

Matt: I definitely want to know about that. 

Lauren: Not in the next episode, because we're recording that before the book comes out. So in a future episode, we will find out, did I get the book or not? 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: And did it hit the best-seller list? All right. Thanks for listening, everyone. 

Matt: Later.