Publish & Prosper
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Publish & Prosper
Should Self-Published Authors Use Beta Readers and Sensitivity Readers?
In this episode, Matt & Lauren help you maximize your book’s potential with early readers like beta readers, sensitivity readers, and industry reviewers. We take a look at how and when to engage with them, how they can help your book, and what to offer them in return.
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Dive Deeper
💡 Check These Resources
- The Editorial Freelancers Association Member Directory
- Lulu’s Partners Page
- Jane Friedman on Are Paid Book Reviews Worth It?
- Blog | 7 Online Writing Communities for Authors
- Webinar | PR for Authors: Building Buzz Around Your Book
💡 Listen to These Episodes
- Episode #13 | Earning Free Promotion for Your Book
- Episode #26 | Do Book Reviews Help You Sell More Books?
- Episode #30 | Finding Your Place in Author & Reader Communities
Sound Bites From This Episode
🎙️ [21:12] “I think out of everything in this episode, we've probably referenced [beta readers] the most in the past. They are a great way to connect with other people in your industry, with other authors, with other peers in your specific genre that you're working on. It's a great way to create those relationships with people. And a great reason to definitely do that."
🎙️ [31:45] “A good editor… will point those things out to you, but it's not their job to make sure that you've done your due diligence. It's always on the author.”
🎙️ [38:19] “Most people that you ask for promotional reviews, testimonials, whatever, they will not provide a negative one. So you'll either get a positive one or you won't get one. If they don't have anything good to say about your book, they're just not going to talk about it.”
🎙️ [46:39] “The point is: connect with people. Share your book with readers before your actual readers get their hands on it. You don't have to reach out to all of the people that we've talked about in this episode. But none of them are going to hurt your content. They can only help. So why not?”
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Matt: Welcome back to Publish & Prosper. This is episode number 42 or the second video episode.
Lauren: I wasn't sure where you were going with that.
Matt: Should we start over, since at 40 was the first episode? Or 41?
Lauren: No, probably not.
Matt: No?
Lauren: No.
Matt: Okay.
Lauren: But you know what we should at some point do? On Buzzsprout it asks you when you're uploading it, it asks you what season it is.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: I've just perpetually been numbering them season one.
Matt: That drives me crazy though, I'm glad you said that. So people who know me will know this already, but one of my absolute favorite TV shows is Catfish. And in season eight - I'll do air quotes - season eight, what they did was, in a normal season for a show like that, you'd have like what, maybe twenty something episodes at that. Season eight went to like 98 episodes. They just kept going.
Lauren: Oh.
Matt: And then, and I thought to myself, okay, well, that's just what they're going to do from now on. Like season eight is just going to be the rest of the episodes in perpetuity. No, they actually came back with a season nine and started it with episode 99, which was even more confusing. And then went to season nine episode one, season nine episode…
Lauren: What?
Matt: Just, I don't know. I don't know if that was like MTV's mess up or Hulu's mess up or whatever, but we will not be running...
Lauren: Okay, but you know what? That is exactly - cause I was, as you were saying that - I was thinking about the show that I find the breakdown most annoying is also an MTV show. So maybe that is just MTV being really weird about how they name their shows.
Matt: Yeah, we won't be doing the MTV thing.
Lauren: Okay.
Matt: We'll figure that out.
Lauren: I'll figure that out.
Matt: It is episode number 42 for us though.
Lauren: Yes, it is.
Matt: Yeah. And today we're going to be talking about early readers, advanced readers, ARC readers, those types of activities. We've talked about the editing process and having editors and how important that is for your book, if you can afford it. We've talked about the importance of getting customer reviews to a degree, right?
But what we haven't talked about is there's a space in between before you've actually published your book and it's getting customer reviews, and that is getting some of that feedback from advanced readers and how that would inform the actual completion of the finished interior file of your book. These are the people that are going to read the book, provide some feedback to you. And it may or may not be stuff that you end up considering, but nonetheless, it's always really good to have some extra sets of eyes on it before you hit that publish button.
Lauren: Yeah. I think I'm going to say like, right off the top that none of these are mandatory.
Matt: Right.
Lauren: But they're all things that they can only help your book. Having any or all of these types of readers take a look at your book before you publish it can only help you.
Matt: Definitely. Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah. There are a couple of terms that I want to like, kind of clear up because I know we've referenced some of these before, but there are a couple of things that as I was outlining this, I was like, oh man, I hope people know what these words mean. So, Matt's actually already said one of them. So when we're talking about ARCs, or advanced reader copies, or advanced review copies - I think the general consensus is that it stands for advanced reader copy, but I've seen both.
So in traditional publishing, an ARC is a… more or less a bare bones copy of a manuscript. It doesn't include a lot of the front and back matter. Sometimes it doesn't include things like final graphics or images. It might still have some typos in it because it might still be something that hasn't gone through every single round of copy editing and line editing, but it is more or less a readable text.
Matt: I’ve actually seen them too where on the cover, there'll be like a huge watermark that says not for resale -
Lauren: Yep.
Matt: - ARC or advanced reader copy. There'll also be sometimes some language there that specifically says this is an advanced reader copy. It also may not reflect the final version -
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: - of this book, and as such is not for resale, you know, those types of things. They are most often identifiable in one way or the other. Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah. They can be really interesting. I have some really interesting ones that are like, if the book is actually an image-heavy book, and a lot of the images aren't in it yet, and what you see inside are just the editor's notes for what the final image is gonna look like.
Matt: Yeah, yeah.
Lauren: They can be really interesting. Obviously, for self-publishing, if you wanna make your own version of that, basically what we're suggesting that you do is order a couple of imperfect copies for yourself. Or not imperfect, but like order a couple of copies that like, you know, you're getting the cheapest printing available. You're not, you're not balling out on the best…
Matt: Right.
Lauren: The best ink and the best paper and all that. You might not have a final cover design yet and that's okay. It's really just something that if you have any advanced readers that want a physical copy instead of a digital copy, this is something that you can throw together quickly and cheaply and provide for them.
Matt: Well, and the beauty of self publishing too, is that it's very easy for you to make a variation of your cover with a watermark if you wanted to -
Lauren: Yep.
Matt: - on the front that just said this is a sample copy or an art copy, not for resale or whatever that might be. And, you know, when you go to upload your final files, you just remove that variant cover file or delete it.
Lauren: Yeah. And that is absolutely something that you see ARCs all the time that don't have the final cover on them. I have one at home right now that I have the ARC and the finished copy of a book that I got this year that I was very excited for. And the differences are subtle, but there are definitely differences. You can see where they moved some things around a little bit between the ARC version and the final cover. That's always something that's flexible.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: But those are great to have. And they're super like self-publishing is perfect for that. Self-publishing is perfect for getting ARCs, even if you're not going to be selling your book. Like you're not doing like, the indie publishing thing. If you're just looking to get yourself some nice advanced copies of a book that you are thinking about shopping around to an agent, you can use self-publishing to print a couple of copies off and then just have a couple of print copies.
Matt: Yeah, that's fair. That happens on the other end of that as well. I mean, a lot of traditional publishing companies and other smaller traditional imprints and things, they will often use a self-publishing or print-on-demand platform to run all their ARCs through, their advanced reader copies, or a service like NetGalley or something like that.
Lauren: Every time I look away from this camera, it stops.
Matt: I don't know what you got going on over there with that camera, but…
Lauren: Look, it's a work in progress. We are going to be figuring this out. I did make a little title card for the last one, when that happened in one of the scenes in the last episode where we kept talking with the camera had cut out for a second. Now there's a little title card that pops up on the screen for it that says ‘sorry, we're still figuring out how this works.’ Or whatever, I haven't finalized it yet.
Matt: This should be something like they use for the Haunted Mansion when the ride stops, but the music's still going.
Lauren: Ooh.
Matt: Yeah, you're gonna need to redo that. You can be more creative with that.
Lauren: Oh, I like that idea a lot.
Matt: I mean, don't get us in a copyright infringement.
Lauren: Oh, no, no, no I'm not, I'm not going to. But -
Matt: Yeah. Maybe the wallpaper comes across and it's -
Lauren: Oh, I do like that idea.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Well, because I did use the wallpaper, but okay, we'll see, we'll see, we'll work on that. Also -
Matt: What do your bracelets say today?
Lauren: That is actually such a good segue, because my bracelets are themed to my shirt today, which is a Haunted Mansion and Taylor Swift mashup.
Matt: Okay.
Lauren: So my bracelets today say Happy Haunt, Foolish Mortal, and Grim Grinning Ghosts.
Matt: I like it.
Lauren: I knew you would.
Matt: I like it a lot.
Lauren: I know. I know. I did get a compliment on my shirt earlier today and I hesitated too much to ask, but I did really want to ask are you complimenting the Haunted Mansion part or the Taylor Swift part? Because I need to know, there's a distinction.
Matt: It probably depends on who gave you that compliment.
Lauren: Exactly.
Matt: Yeah. It's also, I could see where you'd be trepidatious about going any further with that -
Lauren: Right.
Matt: - depending on which path they took.
Lauren: Right.
Matt: Or who it was.
Lauren: Yeah. Well.
Matt: Okay.
Lauren: Yeah. Anyway, we're back on video. We're back on camera. We got this going. The other just kind of term that I wanted to define is a cover blurb. It's actually something that we've talked about in previous episodes, where I am single-handedly attempting to get all of our company to stop referring to the book description on the back cover of a book as a cover blurb, even though that is technically a definition of that term.
Matt: Who still uses that term though in our company?
Lauren: Some people. I don't - I'm not gonna call them out by name.
Matt: You should.
Lauren: I won't.
Matt: Okay.
Lauren: I'm just gonna continue to correct them every time they do so.
Matt: You should also keep doing that.
Lauren: I will do that. But most people in the publishing industry when they're talking about a cover blurb, what they're talking about is like, a one to two line review from another author, a peer, an expert in your industry, something like that, that you put on the front cover of the book that is a marketing tool.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: So it is something like, “This is the best book I've ever read,” Stephen King. That's - if Stephen King said your book was the best book he ever read, you want that on the front cover of your book. Right?
Matt: I would get that tattooed on my body.
Lauren: Well, that too. That's very fair.
Matt: Well.
Lauren: Yeah. That's something that's gonna come up -
Matt: I might get that tattooed on my body anyway.
Lauren: You should do it.
Matt: It's not like anybody would find it, but.
Lauren: How would they know?
Matt: I wonder if he'd come after me with a cease and desist. Well, at that point it's too late.
Lauren: Yeah, what is he gonna do?
Matt: I don't know. I guess nothing.
Lauren: Yeah, do it. Let us know if you do.
Matt: I will.
Lauren: Okay, great. Both of those things are gonna come up, and there might be some other things that come up in here too. I guess you better than me would know - if I bring something up that you're like, that sounds like something not everybody would know, and is not common knowledge, let me know.
Matt: I will.
Lauren: I'll be happy to stop and explain it.
Matt: I usually do.
Lauren: That's true, that’s true.
[9:39] - Beta Readers
Lauren: All right. Wanna get started? Since we're already -
Matt: We already got started.
Lauren: Well, yeah, I guess.
Matt: What are you talking about?
Lauren: I mean, like the first - do we want to talk about the first type of -
Matt: I thought we just did -
Lauren: - advance reader.
Matt: ARCs.
Lauren: Okay, sure. Let's talk about who you're going to send ARCs to.
Matt: Okay.
Lauren: Okay. So the first thing that I kind of want to talk about - and we're kind of going to go through this in like, a linear progression where it's going to go in order of when you're going to have these people try to read your book.
Matt: Oh, I see what you mean.
Lauren: I think. Like, for example, we're going to start with beta readers. Beta readers are somebody that I think you would start earlier in the publishing process. And the last one is going to be promotional reviewers, influencers, bloggers, stuff like that, that you're going to want to give them more or less finished copies.
Matt: And when we say beta readers, we don't mean like your parents, right?
Lauren: Exactly right. That is exactly right. In fact, I would actually encourage you to not ask your parents. I'd actually encourage you not to ask your friends and family at all to be beta readers. Mostly because you want them to buy your book. You want them to be the ones that are gonna buy copies of your book. You don't wanna give it to them for free. Cause.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Obviously you want the people you can rely on to -
Matt: But also, you can't really count on them for extremely truthful and critical feedback, right?
Lauren: Right, right. And that's really what it comes down to, is that you want somebody who will also, especially when it comes to beta - okay, so let's talk about what beta readers are.
Beta readers are basically… they're not editors, but they're people that you're kind of asking them to give you somewhere between general and thorough feedback on your overall book. You don't need to ask them to line edit or to tell you like, hey, I think you used this word wrong. Although if they do listen to them because they're probably not wrong about it.
But like if I was to ask Matt to beta read a book for me, what I would want back from him would be like: ‘plot was good. It got a little slow around this part, like, it got a little boring over here, but then it picked back up again over here. You never answered the question of what happened to this character, and that really bugged me. I really spent the whole book wondering what happened to this character, kind of like never really got back to that. And even if that's a setup for a future book, maybe give me a clue somewhere towards the end that that information is coming. You said this was a book for middle grade readers, but I had to look up like, one word every chapter. So I think it might be a little bit too high of a reading level.’
Matt: You call me stupid?
Lauren: No, I'm saying that if you were, if I was writing on a middle grade level and you, a smart, intelligent, well-read man, had to look up some of the words that I used in it, it's probably not a middle grade reading level.
Matt: You've made a lot of assumptions in the last two sentences, but I think they get the general idea.
Lauren: Okay.
Matt: Yes.
Lauren: Yes
Matt: Yeah. They should be giving you feedback on deeper things like plot, like characters, development.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: Those type of things. Like, oh, this guy sucks. I don't - this character is not written well. Like you say this about, but then you do this like, yeah. I mean, you did mention earlier that if they did come back to you with grammatical things that you should listen. I don't know if I agree with that fully. I mean, there are things grammatically where I think beta readers may have personal opinions that conflict with things your editor might say -
Lauren: Sure.
Matt: - or whatever that might be. But what you really want is just feedback on the story itself, right?
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: The progression of it, how quickly were they able to get through it? Was it something that was just extremely laborious process for them to sit down and read a couple of chapters at a time? Or did they just bang right through it in one sitting, which would be the best.
Lauren: Oh, absolutely. Highest compliment I can give a book.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: But, and also, you know, we just talked through that all like we were talking about a fiction novel, also very relevant to nonfiction.
Matt: 100 percent, yeah.
Lauren: As well. Absolutely.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: I mean, you know, if the case is, hey, you wrote this as a beginner's guide to something and it was a little, it was a little too advanced for me. So I think maybe… or the other way around, you wrote this for intermediate or advanced readers and you didn't tell me a single thing in here that I didn't already know. So like -
Matt: Yeah, I got bored.
Lauren: Yeah, you know, something like that. Or hey, you explain this concept in chapter three and then this concept in chapter five, but I think if I had this chapter five explanation first, it would have helped me understand chapter three.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Things like that, like it's definitely still relevant to your overall book.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Whether it's fiction or nonfiction. And that's kind of then why we're saying this idea of, don't really ask your friends and family to do it unless they are the right fit for your target audience, because you want feedback from somebody who's in your target audience.
Matt: Even then, you should make it very clear to your friends - I still wouldn't use family at all, unless you have a family member that really hates you and they'll give you like, truthful advice. But if they are friends and they do fall into your target audience, just make it very clear like, aside from our friendship, I need you to be 100% honest and truthful here.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: Don't spare my feelings if you think…
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: Now, don't come into it and just be a complete, you know, jerk about it.
Lauren: That is actually something - I do get asked a lot by friends to read stuff. And I have made it a habit now at this point that anytime that somebody shares any kind of non-professional writing with me, the first thing I ask them is do you want feedback on this, or do you just want me to read it so that I have the opportunity to read it?
Because you never want to give - like, I've had that happen before where I've like given somebody feedback on something. They're like, thanks. I wasn't looking for that and it kind of hurt my feelings. And I'm like, oh, sorry.
Matt: Whoopsie.
Lauren: So I only had to make that mistake once and I've never made it again. But yeah -
Matt: I think also -
Lauren: - reach out to other people.
Matt: - in that same vein. I've had people ask me to be a beta reader. And on the times that I have done it for them, there's been once or twice where I did take some pretty thorough notes and turn those over and then never heard another word from them.
Lauren: Yep.
Matt: And on top of that, I'm pretty sure when I looked at the final copy of the book, none of what I had written down or made notes that were taken into consideration. Which is fine, but if you're going to solicit beta readers and have, I mean - cause you know, make no mistake about it, whether your book's great or it's a flaming pile of garbage, it's still time out of their day to do this for you.
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: So when they return their notes or whatever, that might - acknowledge that, thank them. And if there are certain things where it feels like they're really sticking to this one thing, respond to that and just say, hey, here's why I agree with you, or that's a great point, I'm gonna think about that, talk to my editor about it, thank you.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: Just acknowledge that because again, it's not a drop in the bucket time-wise, they're taking time out of their day to help you out, so you should respond with something.
Lauren: I say this as somebody who is a fast reader, and a voracious reader, and usually reads a book in one sitting. Beta reading a book is a very different experience than actually reading a book for fun.
Matt: Yes.
Lauren: It takes me almost twice as long - depending on how thorough I have been asked to be and how much I like the person that I'm beta reading for, I will usually read them twice. Like, I will read a book all the way through once, and then go back and read it a second time. And that's the time that I take all my notes and comments and add things like that to it.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Which takes a long time.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Which leads us then to the question of when should you, if you are looking to connect with a beta reader or multiple beta readers, when in the process should you reach out to them? And I'm going to say -
Matt: Early.
Lauren: Early, but not too early. Don't reach out to them when you're still outlining your first draft of your manuscript. Because it's really - it's all well and good for me to say right now in September of 2024, like, oh yeah, sure. I got time to read your manuscript, no problem. And then in March of 2025, when you send it to me and I go, uh, no, sorry, like, lil’ busy now. Wait until you have at least like, a finished draft to start talking to people.
Matt: Whenever I see people publicly asking for beta reader, like in the nonfiction world, which is typically where I spend more time, there's a call to beta readers, I see it almost once a day on LinkedIn. Like, hey, anybody in my network here on LinkedIn, that would love to be a beta reader for my latest book that I have coming out, I'm about 30 days out from sending the ARCs, anybody who's interested, please DM me or shoot me an email.
What I typically see is like that 30 day marker seems to be like the average where somebody's saying, hey, in about 30 days, I'd like to send these ARCs out and get some beta reading done. I think that's probably sufficient.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: Do you want more or less?
Lauren: No, I think that's, I think that's like that perfect sweet spot, but it's something that you have to think about for your own timing. Cause I think like, asking people 30 days out is great, because then you can kind of plan ahead if you volunteer to do it. You say yes, I can, I can do that, and I can plan ahead on that.
As the author, you don't want to send somebody an ARC or a digital copy of your manuscript and say, hey thanks so much for volunteering to read this. Um, I need it back in 48 hours. Because it's going to print on Friday. Like that's not - you can't send somebody something on Monday, ask for it back on Wednesday because you're going to print on Friday. That's not going to work.
Matt: Well, you shouldn’t do that anyways, because there's steps involved after the beta readers that still necessitate changes to happen before -
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely.
Matt: Yeah. I get the point.
Lauren: So, you know, just factor, factor that in. You want to make sure that you're reaching out to them, giving them enough time to read your manuscript and respond to you, but then also giving yourself enough time to make any changes that they might suggest, or take any of their ideas into account.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Things like that, and then still also follow some other steps before you're publishing. So don't cut it too close to your publication deadline, which I'm assuming you’ve set yourself, because I told you to, so many times.
Matt: That's fair too.
Lauren: Also, we kind of just skated over in there, but this was something that I wanted to mention - beta readers are usually volunteers.
Matt: Yes.
Lauren: And they're usually people that you are fostering some kind of connection with. So whether it's people that you've asked online, you know, Matt said LinkedIn posts or something like that. There are reader communities online. There are writer communities online. If it's something that you're writing for a specific industry you know the online communities better than I do, but I guarantee you no matter what kind of place you're looking in, there is somewhere in there where people are asking for beta readers.
It is very often - because it is also generally unpaid. Not saying that no one has ever paid, there are professional beta readers, but I would kind of consider that a last resort, especially because there are other things that you're gonna have to pay for that are more important than a beta reader.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: But very often beta readers are kind of like a… quid pro quo exchange.
Matt: Yep. The paid ones though are also often more linked to traditional publishing versus self-publishing. And self-publishing, or just the average person, let's say I'm writing a book and I want beta readers. I'm also not going to pay them because in many instances, if you're getting paid to review a product or a book or things like… subconsciously, you're going to naturally skew or shift towards like, oh, this thing is great. Because you're almost going to feel bad. Like, they're paying me. Can I really turn around and say, hey, chapter three, the plot really just took a dump.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: This thing's garbage after chapters… like, you jumped the shark. You know what I mean? Like, you're going to feel bad about being honest about some of the things that the author really needs you to be honest about -
Lauren: Right.
Matt: - if they're paying you. And that's a big part, I think, of why in the indie publishing world, especially beta readers, they're not paid. And the other reason, like you said, is it's often something that's done in more, almost an unwritten trade fashion. Maybe you beta read something for that person and in exchange, they're going to do yours. Or I don't know, maybe you're CPA and you're going to do their taxes or something. If they pay to read your, I don't know, whatever.
Lauren: Hey, whatever works.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Whatever works for people. But yeah, that's, I think beta readers, we've referenced them. I think out of everything in this episode, we've probably referenced them the most in the past. They are a great way to connect with other people in your industry, with other authors, with other peers in your specific genre that you're working on. It's a great way to create those relationships with people.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: And a great reason to, definitely do that. If you were listening earlier and you were like, ARCs? I don't wanna figure out all that. I don't - I have a hard enough time figuring out the final stuff, all that. You can also always just send people digital files. Just ask, ask their preference.
Matt: Ask, cause if you send me a digital file, I'm deleting it immediately.
Lauren: Yeah. That's very fair. For me, I like a digital file because I like to be able to leave comments on it. If you send me an ARC, I will send you back a marked up, handwritten -
Matt: Well yeah.
Lauren: - mess of a book -
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: - that you are then going to have to... well, at least my handwriting is absolutely beautiful, so -
Matt: Way better than mine, but still.
Lauren: - you'll have no problem trying to read that.
Matt: And knowing you, you'll use 14 different color gel pens and some highlighters.
Lauren: You are correct.
Matt: At least it'll be pretty to look at.
Lauren: It will be beautiful.
Matt: Mine's just going to be full of red ink and dog-eared pages and maybe some orange highlighter.
Lauren: Sometimes aesthetically that works.
Matt: It'll sure scare the hell out of you, that's for sure.
Lauren: You get an ARC back and it's just, the whole page is orange. Just completely covered.
Matt: Just know what to expect if you ask me to be a beta reader and I accept. That's what's coming back.
Lauren: I'll keep that in mind.
[22:31] - Sensitivity Readers
Lauren: Anyway, on to the next?
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: All right. Next up, I do want to talk about sensitivity readers. That is something that I don't think we talk a whole lot about, sensitivity readers, but they are becoming more popular -
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: - in the publishing industry. They are probably the newest out of all of these things. They're basically readers that are specifically responsible for reviewing your work for potentially offensive content for a given audience, which makes it kind of difficult…
Matt: Not offensive in the way like when I speak or write, it’s offensive to everybody, but more like, am I offending one specific certain group of people?
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: Inadvertently, by the way.
Lauren: Yes. Yeah, exactly.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: It's the kind of thing that we're like, if you're writing a book and one of the characters in it is deaf, and you yourself are not deaf or hard of hearing.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: And you wanna hire a sensitivity reader to be like, hey, can you read this and make sure that I'm representing it accurately and that I didn't accidentally use ableist language that, you know, would offend the people in this community that I'm actually trying to do the opposite of offending them?
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: But I've accidentally like, put my foot in it somehow, in some way. So that's what you'd want to look for a sensitivity reader for. Again, not exclusive to fiction. This is something that can also be very relevant to nonfiction. Depends on, you know, if you're writing a cookbook, you probably don't need a sensitivity reader.
And again, it's not a one size fits all thing. It's something that depending on what you're writing, depending on what kind of audience you are writing to -
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: - and what kind of characters or representation you have in your book, there will be different readers that are a different fit for that. To that effect, sensitivity readers are usually freelance editors that you hire. They're kind of a subcategory of editors, so I'm saying editors with quotes.
Matt: What qualifies somebody to be a sensitivity reader though?
Lauren: That's a good question. I actually don't know that much about it.
Matt: Cause like if I'm writing a book and let's say, one or two of the characters or whatever, they're gonna be part of the LGBTQA community. Let's say I've got a trans character, whatever. How do I know that if I'm gonna get a sensitivity reader that they're able to fully understand, like you said, the sensitivities that might surround what I would have those characters say or do, or how the other characters might interact with them? Even if the sensitivity reader is part of the -
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: - LGBTQA community? I mean, that helps.
Lauren: Right.
Matt: But still, like.
Lauren: That's actually a really good question and I think that's something that.
Matt: Thank you.
Lauren: I'm imagining that the industry itself is still trying to figure out how to answer that.
Matt: Probably.
Lauren: That's - and that’s one of the reasons that I would say definitely you want to hire a freelancer. This is something that you're paying for. This is not something you're looking for a volunteer for. Because I think that most online marketplaces that you would find a sensitivity reader, they will probably include their qualifications within it. So I don't think there is an overall answer.
Matt: You just brought up a great point though. And so earlier we said, you know, typically a beta reader is not paid for these types of reasons. This is one of the scenarios where they absolutely should be paid, because really they're not there to stroke your ego about the actual plot of your book. They're just there to really make sure that in most cases it's character-related, that you are not crossing any boundaries, or again, pushing into any territory that's going to offend an entire group or subgroup of people. So you absolutely want to pay -
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: - for this experience or expertise, I should say. And again, back to now how we would ascertain that they're actually qualified to do this.
Lauren: Yes. Yeah. And I actually, I was looking into it. Editorial Freelancers Association -
Matt: Yeah, EFA.
Lauren: Great organization. They have an incredibly robust search system on their website that you can search their whole marketplace for members, for editorial service providers, and they do include sensitivity readers as a category on there.
Matt: What's really cool about EFA too, is you can find every year they will release this PDF. It's basically price ranges for all the different types of freelance editorial work you might consider getting done. Everything from copyediting to sensitivity readers to cover designers. And it's a really good way to sort of benchmark and, and try to understand, okay, if you have a limited budget, but you know, you want to hire a few freelancers to help out, this is a good way to kind of understand where you might fall in those ranges and whether or not you'll have enough money left over to hire a sensitivity reader or something like that. So EFA is a great resource. I agree.
Lauren: You might also be able to find - and I think that EFA would be the best place to look for this kind of thing.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: You might be able to find people that do more than one of these things.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Like you might be able to find somebody that says, I'm a developmental editor and I also specialize in being a sensitivity reader for this specific audience and this specific audience. So that might be helpful to you then if you're trying to hire one person to do both of these things that could help.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: That could help keep your cost down.
Matt: There's a lot of that overlap, yeah.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: There's going to be a lot of that overlap in general. So I'm definitely, I'm going to link in the show notes to the EFA directory. So I would definitely check that out if that's something that you're interested in. You can also find sensitivity readers and other kind of editors on other marketplaces like Fiverr. We have a partners page on Lulu that has like a list of service providers that we've vetted -
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren - and that we like and that we've worked with and stuff like that.
Matt: It's also another great reason to go to author events when you can -
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: - and meet other authors and service providers, people who are doing these things and in the industry and build up your own little database of service providers that you could potentially reach out to not have to go out there searching every time you need something new.
Lauren: Absolutely. And again, because you're gonna be reaching out to them… you know, you want to give yourself enough lead time, you want to give them enough lead time. You're hiring somebody so there’s a little bit of a process going into it.
And you also want to make sure that if they give you feedback that results in you having to change something, that you've given yourself enough time to make those changes and then hopefully have an editor review them again, depending on how big the changes are. So you do wanna reach out to them kind of earlier -
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: - in your drafting and editing process rather than later. Especially if you're gonna do the thing where you're gonna try to overlap and have a regular editor who is a sensitivity reader.
Matt: Yeah, and one other thing I wanna point out, nonfiction specifically for the most part, but could be fiction too, depending on what you're writing. But one of the things that I don't think is talked about enough is potentially legal review of what you're writing.
Lauren: Oh yeah.
So if you're writing nonfiction and let's say you're writing a book - which everybody is right now - about using AI and effective marketing campaigns or something, it doesn't really matter. There are times where you're going to be putting information in a book where you may inadvertently be violating copyright law, trademark. You might inadvertently be writing something that ends up being slanderous or liable.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: You may be including a case study or citing something where again, unbeknownst to yourself, you should not be doing that, or you're doing it wrong. So, depending on the content of what you're doing, along the lines of a sensitive reader, there are times where you're going to want to have a legal professional look through your book. That is going to cost you more money and depending again on what you're writing, that may determine just how deep you go with that. But I would say in general it's smart for everybody to have at least one friend who's in the legal business.
Lauren: It’s true.
Matt: And this could help out with that greatly, but nonetheless, there are also people out there with legal experience, whether they're board certified attorneys or not, that can also help with these things. This is the difference, by the way, between traditional publishing and self-publishing. Once again, when you self-publish, there's a lot of great benefits that come with doing that. But, you're on the hook for everything.
If you're being traditionally published, they have people there that are, your, your manuscript is going through sensitivity, it's going through legal review, it's going through all these other things. That's just one other thing you need to be aware of. Especially today. Like, you've got to be very careful with…
Lauren: That's really something that I would not have thought of.
Matt: Oof.
Lauren: Wow. I have a few friends that work - I have a lot of friends that work in publishing, considering all of my friends that I've made since I graduated from college are people that I've worked with and we all work in publishing.
Matt: You're such a nerd.
Lauren: I know. But I have had these conversations with my friends that are editors before, where we've talked about if you're editing a nonfiction book that has like, let's say it has medical advice in it.
Matt: Right.
Lauren: The editor isn't a medical professional.
Matt: No.
Lauren: They are trusting that the author themselves -
Matt: That’s right.
Lauren: - is writing accurate, genuinely healthy, helpful information. So who’s - if we find out ten years from now that that person faked their degree and is not a real medical professional and whatever, like, are the editors responsible in any way for that? Like, that's an interesting question.
Matt: From experience, I can tell you that a good editor will at least make a note and say, hey, there's a lot of medical-heavy inferences in this paragraph, or on this page, or in this chapter. I don't know if this is all correct. I don't know if you've had this cleared. I don't know, but I just wanted to point this out, that this is something that should have clearance or be checked. And the same for again -
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: - if you're using, you know, a particular brand name over and over, they may say, put a comment in there like, hey, check for copyright infringement or whatever, you know what I mean? So a good editor, especially an experienced nonfiction editor, business editor, they will point those things out to you, but it's not their job to make sure that you've done your due diligence. It's always on the author.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: We will never offer any kind of medical advice on this podcast.
Matt: No.
Lauren: Except that the best cure for a bad day.
Matt: Oh, Disney.
Lauren: Is to go to Disney.
Matt: Yeah. 100%.
Lauren: Obviously.
Matt: I mean, isn't that medically proven?
Lauren: That is just a medical fact.
Matt: I would go to court with anybody over that.
Lauren: No jury would convict.
Matt: Fight me.
Lauren: Great advice. Take that one. That one's free.
Matt: Yep.
[32:19] - Professional Testimonials and Blurbs
Lauren: Let's shift gears a little bit, because this first two that we've talked about have been readers that you want to work with when your book is still kind of in draft form. The latter two - right? Former first, latter later. Yep. The latter two that I want to talk about are ones that you're going to reach out to when your book is more or less finished, even if it's not published yet.
Matt: Right.
Lauren: And in fact, I'm going to say you should reach out to them when your book is finished, but definitely not published yet.
Matt: Right.
Lauren: We're going to talk about industry readers that you're going to get testimonials and cover blurbs.
Matt: Blurbs.
Lauren: See where I brought that back around?
Matt: I do.
Lauren: Uh-huh.
Matt: Yep.
Lauren: Okay. Both of these things are, are kind of the same thing. And really, the distinction that I want to make clear here is the difference between when we're talking about testimonials and blurbs in this context, versus when we are talking about customer and reviewer testimonials and blurbs.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: In this context specifically what I'm talking about is… if a Lulu Author reached out to me and Matt and said, hey, I would love you both to read my book before I publish it and give me a blurb. This is a professional… like it's not something that - I'm not reading their book because I am hoping that it's going to help me with whatever the topic of the book is, or because I'm going to be giving it a review for this romance novel, or anything like that. I'm reading it as a professional favor, as a professional courtesy.
And when I say this book was a joy to read, it was really fun. I learned a lot and I'm excited to see what this author does next. That's not something that they're going to use as a customer review or a testimonial of how their book helped somebody, but it is a positive statement from an industry peer.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: So that's kind of what we're talking about here. And we've talked about this before, we've referenced this before, this is another opportunity for you to tap into your author network.
Matt: Oh, it's a perfect opportunity.
Lauren: Exactly.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: This is what that network is for, is this opportunity to connect with people that you've met at conferences or people that you're in online writer communities with. This is probably going to overlap with your beta readers. If somebody asked me to beta read a book for them, and then I also said to them, hey, like, here's my feedback. Also, do you want to blurb? I would give them a blurb.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: If they wanted it.
Matt: The idea that many of your beta readers will also provide a testimonial or a blurb that you would want in your book, whether it's in the first few pages of the front matter or the back matter or the cover or the back cover, I think things get a little blurry there.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: Especially in indie publishing. Because -
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: In indie publishing, especially when you're self-publishing, it's harder to get a testimonial, or a blurb, or a beta reader who carries some sort of weight in some sort of industry whereby somebody who picks your book up would even care that they gave a testimonial or blurb, right?
This is one of those times where you have to think about ‘who do I know’ - or have access to, I should say - ‘that carries any sort of street cred or weight in my genre or industry?’
If I'm writing nonfiction and I'm writing a marketing book, I really want to try and get at least one if not multiple testimonials and blurbs from other respected people in the marketing world, you know what I mean?
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: Like, if I could get a blurb from… I don't know, Seth Godin or whoever, right, for my book. That's - and then from there, it's just downhill, right? But if I put out a book, and I've got three testimonials on there and they're from you, Paul, and somebody else on our marketing team, people are gonna be like… who cares what they think about the book?
Lauren: That's so true and it is - I have bought books before because of who blurbed it.
Matt: A hundred percent, that’s why I'm saying that.
Lauren: Yeah, I have absolutely bought a book that like, ‘John Green said this is the best book I've read in the last decade.’ Okay.
Matt: Who’s John Green? Are you just making that?
Lauren: No, John Green is a New York Times bestselling young adult author. I have a tattoo of a quote from one of his books. He's a pretty big - have you ever seen -
Matt: The only time I'll purposely look at the camera and roll my eyes.
Lauren: Have you ever seen or heard of the movie The Fault in Our Stars? Came out a while ago?
Matt: I think I've heard of it.
Lauren: Okay, well, he wrote that book.
Matt: Okay.
Lauren: He's also a YouTube vlogger. He and his brother have been for a very long time. And he also wrote one of the best nonfiction adult essay collections that I've ever read in my entire life.
Matt: Nonfiction adult essay collection. Now I'm curious.
Lauren: It's called The Anthropocene Reviewed, and it's a collection of essays reviewing the human experience. But it's like, a collection of like reviewing Diet Coke and reviewing Canadian Geese and reviewing Auld Lang Syne and the tradition of singing it on New Year's Eve.
Matt: Okay.
Lauren: It's great. It's delightful. 10 out of 10. But -
Matt: I too have also purchased books because -
Lauren: That’s the point.
Matt: - the blurb was by Stephen King, or somebody was,
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah. This is something that is an important marketing tool, but it's also something that as a self-published and an indie author, you've got to work for.
Matt: A hundred percent. Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah. So this is where all that networking that we've talked about comes in. This is where it's important. This is where creating these connections with people is important, and where you want to foster those connections and foster those relationships so that you can turn to people that you've met.
Mentors are great for this. If you have somebody that is a better known name than you in the industry that has been mentoring you for a while and you can say, I would love for you to read my book now that I have finished writing it, after I've learned all this from you… and also, if you could give me a blurb, that would be great.
Most people that have already written a book, or most people that are working within an industry where it's common to do this, usually understand what you're asking for when you ask them to read your book that hasn't come out yet. They get why you're asking.
Matt: Yeah. And for most people that carries a bit of responsibility.
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: So be cognizant of that and don't just ask fifty people like, hey, give me a blurb or a testimony about my book. I mean, make sure they liked it and make sure that it's somebody that is okay carrying that weight.
Lauren: Yes, absolutely. I'm also going to say that both for this and for the final type of reader that we're going to talk about, which is going to be like, influencers, bloggers, reviewers that you're using for promotional purposes and not customer reviews. Most people that you ask for promotional reviews, testimonials, whatever, they will not provide a negative one. So you'll either get a positive one or you won't get one.
Matt: Oh yeah, yeah.
Lauren: If they don't have anything good to say about your book, they're just not going to talk about it.
Matt: Yeah, but again, that's what I'm saying. Be careful who you're asking for an actual testimonial or a blurb from, because you may put them in a situation - if it's somebody that you really respect or that's close to you where, you know, if they weren't so crazy about the book, now they're in a situation where they're like, what do I do? Am I honest? And I - no, I'm not gonna write you a testimonial, because I don't believe this is the next great marketing opus or do they have to lie or - yeah, I don't know.
Lauren: Depends on whether or not you want to salvage that relationship.
Matt: That's fair. It's also a good way to get rid of somebody you don't want to be friends with anymore.
Lauren: That's true. That’s true, there's always that. When you do want to reach out to these people and what you do want to reach out to them with is going to be towards the end of your publishing process. You want it to be when you have... Because these are the people that you want to impress, right?
These are the people that you want them to say, loved this book, it was beautiful from the cover to the writing to the formatting. Wow, that spine was gorgeous. You want them to get the best possible version of your book. So you want it to be more or less a finished copy, if not absolutely for sure a finished copy.
Matt: That spine was gorgeous?
Lauren: That's - look.
Matt: Have you ever said that? The spine was gorgeous?
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: That's an impressive book then.
Lauren: I also got a text from a friend of mine the other day that listens to this podcast, that was like, hey, I just found this book in a bookstore and I immediately thought of you. And it was a book that had just a solid black spine with no text or writing or anything on it. And I was like, I'm so glad this is the legacy that I'm going to leave behind.
Matt: That's like an emo elder phone book. There's just no descriptive markings on it. I bet you open it up and it's just all the elder emos in that area. Or a yearbook.
Lauren: I'm going to put that together.
Matt: See.
Lauren: Let me know if you want to be included in the elder emo phone book
Matt: I don't want to be in it. And I definitely don't want to be -
Lauren: Not you, the people listening.
Matt: I don't want to be a beta reader for it either.
Lauren: That's okay, I won't ask you. All right.
Matt: Thank you.
[40:22] - Influencers, Bloggers, Reviewers
Lauren: Last but not least, we've already started talking about this a little bit, but promotional reviewers. So, again, we are not talking about customer reviews. We're talking about people that are readers that are interested in your genre. So, you know, if you're going to ask a blogger to review and promote your book, you're going to be asking a blogger that blogs about the content that your book is about.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Whether it's a book blogger or if you're doing a social media marketing guide it's a blogger who writes about how to succeed on Instagram.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Something like that. This is when you're going out to people that have a Bookstagram platform, a BookTok platform, a really popular podcast, a big newsletter that they send out bi-weekly, once a month, whatever - whatever it is, you know who I'm talking about. These are the people that you're going to reach out to within your community or within the target community that you're trying to get your book in front of and say, hey, I'd love for you to read and review my book. Maybe talk about it on your platform. If I send you a finished copy would you be interested in that?
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: First of all, you are going to send them finished copies. That's what you want. You want them to show off the most beautiful version of your book possible and you want them to be impressed by your book. Which means then you're going to want to have to reach out to them when your book is more or less done. Definitely like towards the end, around the same time that you're reaching out to industry people for testimonials and blurbs. Although sometimes those help you get these promo spots.
In most cases, the people that you would be reaching out to, if they're people that are used to doing book promotion, book reviews, stuff like that, they will probably have some kind of public guideline outlined somewhere.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: If you're reaching out to a book blogger to say, hey, I'd love to send you a finished copy of my book for you to potentially promote on your blog. Chances are they have somewhere on their blog: Here's how to reach me. Here's how to pitch your book to me. I'm currently not accepting any pitches because I've…
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Bitten off more than I can chew already for the next few months.
Matt: There’ll be an established criteria that they set.
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: It's no different than submitting your manuscript to a publisher or something like -
Lauren: Yep.
Matt: They're gonna, they're gonna have their own way of like hey, if you want me to review it, here's where you start. This is how you do it. No guarantees, but this will get you a little further than the average person.
Lauren: Yes
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah. And again, like Matt just said no guarantees. This is something… this is actually something that I see a lot, this is recurring drama in online book communities and I don't understand why because it seems like such an obvious given. Sending somebody a free copy of your book does not guarantee that they're going to promote it.
Matt: No, not at all.
Lauren: Now, if you pay for...
Matt: It doesn’t guarantee they're even going to like it.
Lauren: Right. And like I said -
Matt: Or read it.
Lauren: - if they don't like it, they're probably not going to promote it.
Matt: Right.
Lauren: If you contract somebody where you're paying for a promotional spot on their website, on their Instagram, whatever it is. Then yes -
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: You paid for a promotional space, you are expecting a promo spot.
Matt: Yep.
Lauren: Then you have a reason to be upset. But if you sent an unsolicited copy of your book to somebody and they don't promote it, that's it. That's the end. That's it. You sent it to them. They either didn't like it or they didn't get around to reading it and they're not promoting it.
Matt: I would go a step further and say, don't ever send your book to somebody unsolicited.
Lauren: Well, yeah.
Matt: So even in this case, where they may not have proactively asked to review it or get a copy of it, they still have a process for how you would submit and that is what they do. So in a way it's not unsolicited, right? You should never send your book to somebody unsolicited.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: Because there's also the not so fun and icky side of social media and other places where you could send your book to somebody unsolicited, especially if you don't know them very well, and they take it some sort of way. They don't like your book for whatever reason, then they go out on social media and trash it. And you want to be careful of that too.
Lauren: There was drama recently on BookTok. I'm going to be super vague about this.
Matt: Boo.
Lauren: A traditional publishing company sent out a promotional box for a highly anticipated new release that was the book and like, some swag and stuff in a box.
Matt: Was it from John Green?
Lauren: No, it was not.
Matt: Oh.
Lauren: It included some items in there that some people were really upset about and despite the fact that this was a - I'll tell you later - despite the fact that this was a promotional event done by the publisher that really had nothing to do like… I guarantee you the author didn't have a whole lot of say, if any say, in what was included in this box. And it doesn't really speak to the quality of the book at all.
There was enough drama about this choice that the book wound up getting bad press that was probably undeserved. You know? And it is still like even in the back of my mind, this is a book that I was on the fence about reading. I've liked some of this author’s books, not other ones. And I was kind of, you know, on the fence about it. And after all this drama about it, I was like, yeah, you know, I'll just wait. I'll read it. I'll read it when I can get it from the library and it doesn't have like a two month waiting list or whatever.
Matt: I mean, I'm laughing, but it's not funny.
Lauren: It’s - yeah.
Matt: That sucks.
Lauren: Yeah, it sucks - and you know, a lot of the problems that people had with it were you sent this out without any kind of forewarning, without any kind of like, hey, are you cool with this? There were people that did like live unboxings on TikTok live or Instagram live and like were taken aback by the contents of the box.
Matt: Now I’m dying to know what was in this box.
Lauren: I know. I literally can't, it like, breaks the rules of our content guidelines.
Matt: All right, all right.
Lauren: I will tell you when we're done recording, I promise.
Matt: Well then let’s hurry up, because I want to know.
Lauren: But if you're listening to this - I know - if you're listening to this and you're like, I wanna know too, I guarantee you if you Google any of the things that I just said, you'll find out what it is. Or email me if you really can't find it, I'll let you know. But yeah.
Matt: Don't email her.
Lauren: The point is don't send unsolicited books or anything else to readers.
Matt: Well, now we're giving out life advice.
Lauren: Now, well, that is just, yes. Don't send unsolicited anything to anyone, okay?
Matt: Yep.
Lauren: Unless it's a nice card thanking your direct customers for purchasing from you earlier that year.
Matt: Fair enough, yeah. I mean, these are fans, these are purchases.
Lauren: Yeah. yeah. Yes. There’s a difference -
Matt: But you know, you should still be very selective and yeah, we'll just leave it at that.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah that's true. All right. Well, hopefully there was something helpful in there.
Matt: Everybody's running to BookTok now to figure out what you're talking about.
Lauren: Everyone’s going to find out what the drama is. And at this point, there's been seven new dramas since then. It's like a completely, it's old news, whatever. It's fine.
[46:38] Wind Down
Lauren: Anyway, the point is: connect with people. Share your book with readers before your actual readers get their hands on it. You don't have to reach out to all of the people that we've talked about in this episode. But -
Matt: Right.
Lauren: - none of them are going to hurt your content. They can only help. So why not?
Matt: Well, and again, the more of them that you do use, just plan for that. It's going to extend the timeline of your launch.
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: The more people that you're waiting on to read and get back to you for whatever purpose, whether that's sensitivity, just straight up beta reading, legal reviews, whatever, just understand that you're increasing the timeline for your book launch. So choose appropriately and selectively.
Lauren: Yeah. And if you have to, and actually this is free advice before we log out. Set deadlines. Not just for yourself, if you're reaching out to - and especially, there's a difference between paying somebody and contracting them and saying, I need this by this date and they can tell you right off the bat like, that won't work for me, or it will, whatever, before you even contract them officially.
Matt: Right.
Lauren: But if you are asking friends, peers, readers, any - whoever, if you're asking volunteers to read your books for you, give them a deadline. Tell them I need - I need your feedback by this date. And if you can't get it to me by then, that's fine, but I'm not going to be considering it after that point. I need to get my like next round edits in the week after that. So I need it by this date, hard date, and I'm moving on from there, whether you've gotten it back to me or not.
Matt: Yeah, I would, I would actually go a step further and just say set all that up on the front end.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: So when you're actually soliciting for beta readers, right then and there, just say, hey, I could use a couple of beta readers and what I need are people who are willing to read this book for me. Give me some honest critical feedback, but also be able to do it in this timeframe.
Lauren: Yep.
Matt: So then you don't even have to go into it after the fact with that sort of like, hard fast, if you don't get it to me by hand, I'm not going to use it. They already know, like don't even volunteer if you can't meet this particular deadline or time frame.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: Well, good luck with that.
Matt: Well, that was fun.
Lauren: Was it?
Matt: Beta readers, always fun.
Lauren: Yeah, I mean, I always, I always like talking about this stuff. I know. There are some good resources linked in the show notes. So if you want to look into any of the things that we talked about in here, go check that out, including the link to the Editorial Freelancers Association directory, which I highly recommend.
Matt: Yes, yeah, it is a great resource.
Lauren Yeah.
Matt: For sure.
Lauren: So definitely go check that out. You can also always email us podcast@lulu.com if you have any questions about anything we talked about here, about anything else, anything you can think of. We're here. Shoot us an email, find us on Lulu's social media. Check us out on YouTube now. There is a video recording of this episode and I bet it's weird because...
Matt: Like and describe or like and subscribe.
Lauren: Like and describe. I like that so much better. Like and subscribe. Lulu's YouTube channel is pretty cool, just in general.
Matt: Yeah.
Lauren: But also to this podcast.
Matt: Blow us up.
Lauren: And thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.
Matt: Later.