Matt: Welcome back everybody. We are episode 30 deep into Publish & Prosper. That's right, the big three-oh, we finally hit adulthood. 

Lauren: We did it.

Matt: I think that's the official age of adulthood - 

Lauren: Is it? 

Matt: For people. 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: How old are you?

Lauren: I'm going to be - actually I'm going to be 35 like two weeks after this episode comes out, which means I can legally be president in the United States of America. 

Matt: Let's not go there. You don't have a record of prosecution, so. 

Lauren: I also still have a soul. 

Matt: Alright. 

Lauren: Well, that's not true. I actually sold it to Liquid Death a couple of days ago.

Matt: I was going to say, listen, that - 

Lauren: So I don't have that either. 

Matt: That's questionable. I mean, any, any one of several entities could claim your soul right now, whether that's Disney or the Swiftie Mob or well, now something called Liquid Death. Yes. Anyways. 

Lauren: Something called Liquid Death, like you weren't the one that introduced the whole team to Liquid Death. 

Matt: Episode 30. 

Lauren: Go on. 

Matt: We are going to be discussing author communities and reader communities, the differences between the two and how you should act when you get inside one. 

Lauren: Yeah, it's a conversation that I see a lot happening on social media these days in a lot of author spaces and reader spaces. So I thought it would be interesting to kind of bring that conversation on air. So we'll see where it goes, but it could be fun. 

Matt: All right. 

[2:00]

Lauren: So just kind of to put a qualifier a little bit on this, kind of why we're doing this and then what we're talking about. We talk a lot about community in general in these episodes. We talk a lot about the importance of growing your author network and about fostering relationships with your readers and all kinds of things like that. We use the word community very freely, honestly, because sometimes we use it to refer to like, building your own community, like having an email newsletter or social media, something more specific like a Discord server or a Circle community dedicated to your fans, things like that. We talk about building your community on your own land and not rented land. We throw this word around a lot. 

I just immediately got distracted by seeing a note that I left for myself in the outline that said ‘might throw a Taylor Swift metaphor in here.’

Matt: I wasn't sure if you were actually going to say that or if that was like technically a note to yourself. Typically you would put an asterisk or highlight those so I wasn't sure. 

Lauren: The problem is that I don't remember what the Taylor Swift metaphor was going to be so I don't know. 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: It’s fine. 

Matt: Off to a good start here for our 30th episode. 

Lauren: We are doing great. It's fine. Specifically what I really want to talk about here are communities that exist whether they’re online or in-person that are already existing communities. So I'm not - in this case, we're not talking about you as an author building a community of your fans, your readers, your followers that are interested in your content and networking and connecting with people within that community in general. 

We're talking about pre-existing ones that authors and readers are joining. So author events, reader events, book clubs, writing workshops, writing groups, online communities that are pre-existing and even stuff like social media, like BookTok, Bookstagram, places like that. So that's kind of what I wanna talk about today. I think it's gonna be a lot of me talking. But that's fine, so. 

Matt: We'll see. 

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see one way or another.

Matt: I'm not anti community by any means. I just don't spend near as much time in them as Lauren does. 

Lauren: That's true. Yeah, this is definitely - caveat that this is totally coming from a place of bias as somebody who spends a lot of time personally engaging - in not engaging, because I'm a lurker in every community that I've ever been a part of, ever. But I do spend a lot of time in or adjacent to reader spaces. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So this is definitely coming from that angle and experience. And then also obviously professionally working in spaces that are author related spaces and or adjacent to author related spaces.

[4:35]

Lauren: Let me just back up a little bit and kind of talk about the differences between an author community and a reader community. If you're like sitting here being like, what do you mean? They're the same thing, they're both communities for people that are passionate about the written word in some way or another. Or the specific niche genre that you're writing - nonfiction fiction, whatever. So author communities like a space for writers to come together to share ideas, ask for feedback, find beta readers or reviewers, network and connect with peers for opportunities like speaking events or signings. Maybe learn from, you know, like, hey, I'm trying to self-publish and I've never done that before, and can anybody give me advice on what they've done? 

I asked ChatGPT for help with this outline when I was working on it the other day, and it actually said the words in there, ‘think of it as a support group for writers.’ Which I was like, I mean, you're not wrong, but that does feel a little bit like a call out. 

Matt: Yeah. ChatGPT is already predisposed and learning that authors need some sort of a quote unquote support group. 

Lauren: And it's not wrong. 

Matt: Well, that's probably true. 

Lauren: Yeah. Reader communities, on the other hand, are spaces designed for specifically book fans, book lovers, to talk about books, share reviews and recommendations, debate theories, air grievances, places like a book club, online review forums like Goodreads, stuff like that. So actually pretty distinct spaces despite the fact that they obviously have an overlap in the core intent behind them. It's what people are doing within them that is pretty distinct. 

Matt: Yeah I get bored with the reader communities, but I do like the author communities that I am lucky enough to be a part of. There's a lot of fun and drama that goes down there. 

Lauren: That’s true. 

Matt: But there's also a lot of really good learning opportunities. So I do think that these author communities - at least some of them that are out there right now - are extremely helpful and probably do act as great support groups for most authors. Yeah. 

Lauren: I do actually completely agree with you on that. There's a reason that I'm a lurker in a lot of reader communities, and it's because I find them to be very overwhelming. And also if I ever actually opened my mouth to argue with these people, the way that I very often want to, I would be booed off the internet within like ten minutes and I don't have thick enough skin for that. 

Matt: Yeah. Like, I mean, I don't want to start out of the gate, like really sort of downplaying or disparaging reader communities. Cause I mean, there's, there's value there in some of them for certain purposes, but man, I don't - if there was ever a community that is very similar to being on Twitter. 

Lauren: Yes!

Matt: It would be reader communities. Like it is oftentimes the equivalent of, you know, sitting on the side of some railroad tracks and watching a train crash happen in real time.

Lauren: It absolutely is. 

Matt: And honestly, I feel bad for some of the authors that get discussed in some of these reader communities, like, man, some of these authors get cooked. 

Lauren: Well, spoiler alert, the long and short of this episode is going to be trying to convince authors that they should not be entering and engaging in reader communities unless they are explicitly invited to do so and even then they should do it with extreme caution. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So I don't think you're wrong to come in with that feeling right off the top. 

Matt: Yeah, I just find myself when I am in some of those - usually by accident - that I'm just getting so aggravated for the authors at seeing like, some of this stuff like, you know, anyways, yeah. 

Lauren: Yes, absolutely. Yes, I totally understand and agree with that. I'm also going to quote ChatGPT again, because I thought this was a really - I don't know where it was getting these quotes from, but I was like, oh, this is maybe I don't have to write these outlines anymore. Maybe ChatGPT will write them for me forever. And then of course it crashed in the middle of the outline and it was down for the rest of the afternoon and I had to finish writing it myself. 

Matt: Oh, that sucks. 

Lauren: I know it was great. Anyway, when talking about these separate spaces, ChatGPT said: ‘having separate spaces allows each community to thrive in its own way. Authors need a place where they can discuss their craft without worrying about how their readers might react. Similarly, readers need a space to fangirl or criticize without feeling like they're walking on eggshells.’

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: Thank you, ChatGPT. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: For your invaluable contribution to this conversation. 

Matt: Yeah. I mean, again, I do think there are real benefits to reader communities. I don't want to come off as like - I don't dislike reader communities as much as I dislike Amazon. So I just want to be clear about that. I mean, it can be a good place, like you've alluded to or said that authors can get some value out of there. And then readers obviously find some sort of value in there, or they wouldn't keep going back. 

Lauren: Sure. 

Matt: But for me personally, the author communities that I've been lucky enough to be allowed into… way more value I find in there, even as somebody who's not necessarily in there to participate solely as an author. 

Lauren: Well, I think, [9:36] I think that they're also like, as we're talking about the distinctions between them, I think that they are inherently different in that author communities tend to be more focused on - 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: Craft and education and this is a learning experience for me. How do I do this? Crowdsourcing how to do things, whether it's how to write, how to publish, how to get an agent, whatever. Reader communities tend to be echo chambers of opinions. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And we've seen some really, really powerful examples - five years ago, would you have walked into Barnes and Noble and saw an end cap that said As Seen on BookTok? 

Matt: Yeah. Well. All right. 

Lauren: And now but now it is

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Like now it is relevant and there are books on there. There have been books in the last few years that have hit the New York Times bestseller list that came out a decade ago. But they've hit the bestseller list because the BookTok community, somebody picked it up and started recommending it to people, and it they were somebody that had a good following and their following started reading it and their following started reading it and their following started reading it and now all of a sudden 10,000 people are reading a book that had a pretty mediocre launch when it came out ten years ago. 

Matt: Yeah I don't - I think that's a great point although I personally don't know that I would classify BookTok as a reader community necessarily, because it's part of a larger social media channel. BookTok started out as nothing more than a hashtag. 

Lauren: True. 

Matt: And so, you know, nothing against that at all. I mean, like you just said, there's a lot of great things that have come out of TikTok allowing BookTok to actually happen. And yes, some of that was driven obviously by revenue and things like that or potential revenue. But nonetheless, I mean, it's had an extremely profound effect on the way books are found and sold these days. So no disagreement there, but I still don't, I don't know that I would refer to that as a community. 

By definition, a community is a place where for the most part, lots of two-way and multi-way communication goes on, conversations happen, things like that. And I would say TikTok again, it's a social media channel and it's more of like a one person says or does this. Yes, people have the ability to hop in and comment on that but it's still not quite the same. So I don't think BookTok is a bad example of the way that readers have been able to potentially influence a broader audience. But I don't know that I would call that a community. I don't know that it has quite the same characteristics and or goals. 

Lauren: There definitely are communities within the umbrella of BookTok that I just couldn't name off the top of my head, but there are definitely specifically - and this is something that I've seen as somebody who spends a lot of time doom scrolling my FYP on TikTok. You know, you kind of see these playing out in real time where like, a popular influencer will review a book that, you know, they said everyone's reading this right now. It's the book that everyone's obsessed with right now. And I read it. And guess what? I hated it. And here are all of the reasons why I hated it. And it was not good. And I don't understand what you guys are all talking about. 

The community that happens is the conversation that that sparks where other people are responding to it and saying, here's where you're right. Here's where you're wrong. Oh, my God. I'm so glad somebody said that. I'm stitching this video to say, like, thank God. I thought I was the only person in this like whole space that also hated this book. 

The distinction, I guess, that I'm trying to get to with BookTok specifically is that I've seen authors get into a lot of trouble on BookTok, where let's say the author of that book, that that influencer hated, stitches that video and replies to it. That's now an example of an author stepping into a reader space in a bad way. And that author, nine out of ten times, it does not go well for that author.

Matt: I think that's because it's not a community. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: All right, listen, I'll give you some of that just so that we can move on. I think there can be some community aspects or similarities between something like BookTok and an actual community. But I don't know for me, like that's, that's not a community. That's not where I would send somebody with the expectation of community. But I do agree that BookTok definitely has its place. I do agree that some semblance of conversations are happening there, but I still think it's more of that sort of one way, very opinionated. Like it's really more of a way for people to just come and basically talk shit. But nonetheless, yeah, I'll leave it at that. 

[13:58]

Lauren: Okay, so let's talk about some actual examples of communities then? 

Matt: Perfect. 

Lauren: See if you agree with those more? 

Matt: Perfect. Let's do that. 

Lauren: So since we're already on the conversation of reader ones. We've talked a lot about conferences and events that are author focused or content creator, content entrepreneur focused. We haven't talked a whole lot about reader events, partially because a lot of them are falling to the wayside, which is really sad. 

Matt: Unfortunately, yeah. 

Lauren: RIP BookCon. 

Matt: Right, big time, yeah. 

Lauren: We’ve talked about that, yeah. But there are still a lot of reader focused events every year. Two actually that always come to mind to me are YallFest and YallWest, because I really like the names for both of them. YallFest is a YA book festival that takes place in, I think it's South Carolina. And then they made a sister chapter of it that takes place on the West coast. So it's YallFest and YallWest. I just always thought that was so clever and cute. I love that. 

But we are also going to be participating in a reader focused event later this year. We've talked about Author Nation before. We had Joe Solari on recently for an episode. Author Nation, the first few days of the conference are author focused. It's specifically an author focused event that focuses on education, craft of writing, industry professionals, opportunities like that. The second half of the event or the I think it's I don't think it's an even split, but the later portion of that event is called RAVE. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: So the last day of the event is called RAVE and it is the portion of the event where authors are able to set up and sell and sign books for their fans. Yep. 

Lauren: Yeah. So that's going to be a shift focus to now that's a reader focused event where the primary intention of that event is for readers to be able to come meet their favorite authors, buy books from them, get signed copies. There might be some panels and speaking sessions with some of the authors that are attending that day. 

Matt: Yeah, I do believe there's going to be some other activities as well. But yeah, you're right.

Lauren: Yeah. And you know, if that's too abstract of an example, BEA and BookCon are also - again RIP - examples of that. BEA - Book Expo America - was the big publishing industry event that happened at the Javits Center in New York every year. BEA was a Thursday-Friday event that was largely industry-focused. It was a lot of people that worked in the publishing industry. 

And then BookCon was when it opened up on Saturday and I think sometimes Sunday too. And then it was reader-focused. Then it would shift to the attendees that are here this day are book nerds that are here to meet authors, attend book signings, maybe try to get their hands on an advanced reader copy, although that got harder and harder every year. So that was a really primary example of the distinction between the two. 

Matt: Yeah. And again, those examples were larger ones. There's quite a few, obviously, out there that you can find that are very genre specific. They exist across platforms like Discord, or they might actually use a legitimate community platform like Circle. So you'll come across lots of different smaller reader groups that aren't attached to events, but the ones you're describing are attached to larger events, or in the case of the ones you just pointed out that events that no longer exist anymore, but those seem to be the easier way to draw people in was to attach it to a large event. And I think that's how a lot of those communities became successful, but that's also how you ended up with this large melting pot of multi-genre participation where you would jump in, potentially, to their online community portion and it was just a dumpster fire. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: Like it was really hard to make heads or tails of anything that was going on in there. But yeah. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: I think for reader communities now you have to search a little harder to find the good ones. They are pretty much existing on channels like Discord and some of those other areas. And the one or two that I've been in that didn't seem like it was just a big sort of social free for all. They were very focused by genre. And sometimes very focused by just a handful of authors within that genre. 

Lauren: Yeah, which honestly, I think that reader communities more than most - that's a great opportunity to be as niche as you want to be. Because there is, especially in fiction publishing, there are so many niche genres out there. So I don't think that's super surprising, but I do also think that something like a book club, whether that's just a small like - my sister texted me last night for a book recommendation for her group of friends that has a book club. They are all high school friends. None of them live in the same state anymore. So once a month they get on a Zoom call together and they talk about a book that they read recently. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: That counts.

Matt: Yeah. And that is really closely aligned with the next one I was going to bring up, which was a lot of authors have their own community for their readers. So you have a highly concentrated community space that is pretty much started and run by a particular author, similar to how you know, a book club might be run. And that's often how they start is an author that starts developing a following or they put out a specific book and a great way to encourage people to get together and talk about it like a virtual book club is to start their own small community and they just they kind of grow from there. 

Lauren: Yeah. I just remember what my Taylor Swift metaphor was. 

Matt: By all means, please. 

Lauren: So it was that kind of the distinction between them would be to say if Taylor Swift started her own fan club, like it was the officially sanctioned Taylor Swift fan club started by her. 

Matt: Right. 

Lauren: That's an author community. If Taylor Swift fans, independently of her, created their own... Nope, the metaphor is getting away from me. 

Matt: Yeah, I still think... 

Lauren: This is getting cut, so feel free to change the subject. We're doing great. 

Matt: Well, I do think though that you brought up a good point in that little mess of what you might cut out, what you might not cut out. But I do think there’s something to be said about when you're trying to define an author community. There's a community that is for authors, and then there's the community like I just alluded to, which is an author starts a community for their fans and followers and readers. And so I would still see that as a reader community, it was just started by an author. 

Lauren. Yes. 

Matt: Versus an actual author community is a community full of authors who are there for the common goal of learning more about their craft. How to sell more books, how to market their books, you know, how to develop better plot lines, whatever that might be, right? All that stuff that we hope authors are in there doing most of the time, instead of complaining about each other or the weather or anything else that's happening. 

Lauren: Yes, I completely agree with that.

Matt: I don't know where that's going to fit into this episode, by the way. So have fun with that.

Lauren: Thanks. It's fine. I really just wanted an excuse to bring up Taylor Swift because I already edited the Taylor Swift reference that I made in the last episode out, so. 

Matt: Why?

Lauren: Uh, mostly for time. 

Matt: Oh, all right. 

Lauren: I don't know how long it's going to be when it's finished. So you guys will know by now, but the episode that we recorded before this one - so episode 29, I guess unedited was - 

Matt: 29 comes before 30. Usually. Yeah. 

Lauren: Okay, listen. 

Matt: Sorry, Mr. Vassallo.

Lauren: Okay. Before it was edited, the raw audio of us recording episode 29 was 68 minutes long. So some sacrifices had to be made. And unfortunately, the Taylor Swift reference was one of them.

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: It's okay. Life goes on.

Matt: It does. 

Lauren: I'll have plenty of other opportunities to bring her up in the future. 

Matt: You will. 

Lauren: Like right now. 

Matt: Yep. 

Lauren: Anyway, I hope at this point we haven't completely lost you and the plot, but more importantly that we have kind of established the distinction between these two different types of communities. 

Matt: Yeah. 

[21:39]

Lauren: Do we need to talk about the value of them?

Matt: Well, yes, I mean, obviously some of that is obvious. Why would I join an author community versus why would I join a reader community? So I would hope that some of that is obvious, but not everybody would be thinking about or understand all of the benefits. Both types of communities are great for networking. If you use them that way, they're a great way to meet people, peers, you know, like-minded individuals that either like the same authors and genres that you do or…

For authors, it can be a pretty lonely road to travel at times. A lot of authors are introverted. If they don't take our advice and go to as many events as possible, it's really hard to find ways to network with their peers. But there's no denying the benefits and the value of having peers in the world of writing. And there's so many benefits to being able to reach out to another writer when you're stuck on something or for whatever that might be, right? Maybe you're trying to set up your own direct sales platform. 

Lauren: Oh, what a great idea.

Matt: It is a great idea. And so, you know, you need a way to reach out to some others who maybe already done it before and like can help you sort of work through some of the issues you might be having. So, I mean, there's all kinds of benefits to both. And I know we're going to get to this, but even as an author, there are benefits to joining a reader community as well, and maybe there's benefits for a reader to join an author community. I don't know. Probably not. I don't know, but definitely benefits for authors to lurk in the reader communities.

Lauren: I mean, I do think that it's inherently impossible to separate them entirely because most aspiring authors or successful authors are also readers. 

Matt: Yeah, well. 

Lauren: So, like, it's unavoidable that there are going to be quote unquote readers in author spaces because they're doing both. But yes, to your point about like somebody who is specifically like a reader just in it for the enjoyment of reading and reviewing. I actually can't see why they would want to join an author community unless they were also an aspiring author. \

Matt: Yeah, or pure voyeurism. 

Lauren: Well, there's definitely that. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: That's so true. There is actually I've learned a whole lot about that recently on the internet that there are absolutely communities that are just - 

Matt: This is a family friendly show. We don't want to hear what you learned about on the internet as it pertains to voyeurism. You can keep that to yourself. I don't want to get kicked off of Apple or Spotify or any of these other channels, so. Let's just skip right over that part of whatever you were about to say. Again, sorry, Mr. Vassallo. 

Lauren: I would like to point out that you were the one that used the word voyeurism. 

Matt: But I was using it in a very clean way. 

Lauren: Mmkay. 

Matt: I'll have you know. 

Lauren: Okay. 

Matt: How dare you? 

[24:16]

Lauren: Well, I guess this is a great time to dive immediately into any other topic of conversation. It's fine. So as we've kind of already gone in the direction of talking about - 

Matt: We've gone in like ten directions, but let's just keep going. 

Lauren: Look, I just feel like the last few episodes we've done have been very factual. So I wanted to do one that was a little spicy. 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: But since we just kind of talked about how these groups overlap and how there might be some cross-contamination. 

Matt: Well, did we give any examples of author communities? 

Lauren: Oh, sure. I guess we could still do that.

Matt: Well, I just think that might be helpful for if there are any authors actually listening to this podcast, like. 

Lauren: I’m so sorry if there are.

Matt: There are some good ones out there like some of our favorites are the nonfiction writers community so that's associated with the Nonfiction Writers Conference and the Nonfiction Writers Association - is it Stephanie Chandler?

Lauren: Yes. 

Matt: Is she the one that runs all that? Yeah. That's a great one if you can get into that community and then there's others, you know for fiction writers you have groups like Erin Wright’s Wide for the Win and a couple other groups out there that deal with how to better market and sell your book, going wide, some of those things too. And then, you know, again, when you look at some of the events that have communities attached to them. Novelist Inc or NINC, I believe Inkers Con also has their version of a community. There's a lot of great ones out there for authors. Did I miss any that are on the top of your head?

Lauren: Well, I mentioned Author Nation already. 

Matt: Yep, absolutely. Of course. 

Lauren: So definitely that one. I also do just want to call out the fact that these are all big ones that have a digital presence and also the nationwide presence where the whole point is that no matter where you're writing from you can find like a way to participate in this community. There's also plenty of opportunity for you to find smaller local communities especially if that's something that you want to do in person. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: The bookstore that I used to work at had a writers group that would meet once a month in the cafe at our bookstore and they always had signs up in the store that it was an open, just open call if you wanted to join it. If you were looking for a writing group that was a peer writing group that would get together once a month and share each other's content, that was a thing. There you go, that was great. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: Or I listened to Author Nation has a podcast, State of the Nation. They recently had guests on that were the people that created Story Wars, which is something that's gonna be this really cool, really fun event at Author Nation this year, and I wanted to hear more about what Story Wars actually was. And by the end of it, I was so outraged that I didn't live in Cleveland and that I couldn't go to this regular meetup at, I think it was a brewery in Cleveland, where this community of people does like on the fly writing and then improv kind of standup writing. It sounded incredible. Like it sounded like so much fun. And I was just immediately like, how dare you not do this everywhere? How can I not? How do I get to Cleveland so that I can go to this?

Matt: How dare you not do this everywhere? 

Lauren: Right. But it's a great idea. And like, and that's a really fun opportunity. And they actually talked about in the episode, they were talking about how they just do it in this public space. And some of their best entries that they've had from people have been just patrons that were at the bar unrelated to like knowing this event was going on and they saw it going on and they joined in and started participating in it and had a lot of fun in that. 

So if you're looking for a way to be a part of an author community or a writer community or something like that, there are plenty of opportunities out there to find them, whether they are big nationwide communities or small local bookstore, coffee shop, library, independent groups. 

Matt: Yeah. And if you don't find one, just start your own. 

Lauren: Yeah, do that. Story Wars people contact me. I'll start one up here in North Carolina. 

Matt: I briefly in college thought it would be cool to start a club for horror writers. 

Lauren: Was it cool? 

Matt: Not at all. There was a - close to the campus, there was a coffee shop cafe place and there was always like there's a bulletin or there was a bulletin board in there. I don't think the place even exists anymore, but there was a bulletin board in there where people would advertise for like, different clubs or like bands that needed a singer or Dungeons and Dragons groups that needed another player or whatever. Like, and there was always one or two things posted up there for like either a book club or like people trying to band together for like a writers club of sorts. And so I thought it'd be fun to put something up there to pull people together to write horror. Cause at one point I thought I would be a horror writer.

Lauren: It's not too late. You still can be. 

Matt: Oh my God. Uh, then I'd just be writing about my life. But so I did put something up there. And the first meeting, which was a few weeks later, there was three of us. And of the three, I was the most normal and, um, maybe we'll leave it at that, but it was not a good experience.

Lauren: So was there a second meeting? 

Matt: No, there was not a second meeting at all. And I'll tell you, the one time I passed one of them on campus, it was the most awkward walk by I've ever had in my life, probably. 

Lauren: Oh man, and back then you couldn't even pretend that you were checking your cell phone or something, you just had to -  

Matt: No, no. Well, I'm not that old, but I mean, wait, did I have a cell phone? I did, it wasn't an iPhone, that's for sure. This would have been ‘99. Yeah, first iPhone was what, 2007, 2006?

Lauren: Something like that. It was right around when I went to college. 

Matt: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you couldn't pretend because there wasn't even a real good social media or anything. 

Lauren: You're playing snake on your Nokia flip phone. 

Matt: You're just walking like facing forward, talking to human beings. It's like, yeah, that existence was awkward. 

Lauren: That's your horror story. There you go.

Matt: I guess so, but it was weird. So, but you could always start your own. Don't let my experience stop you. 

Lauren: Yeah, maybe just vet people. 

Matt: Yeah. Good luck with that. 

[30:07]

Lauren: I was just going to say the same thing. If you don't want to start your own community, but if you do want to try participating in some of the existing ones, I would encourage you to do so. Even if you just want to check it out for a little while and see what happens. Actually I would encourage you - that would be my like, primary suggestion, would be if you are interested in joining any kind of community, whether it's a formal or informal community, spend the first couple of days just kind of like, scoping out the space. Be a lurker a little bit, see if you can get a feel for what kind of engagement people are… engaging in? Surely there's a better way to say that. But - 

Matt: See what kind of activities people are engaging in. 

Lauren: Thank you, and that's why I'm a writer and not a not a speaker. 

Matt: That's why you make the words.

Lauren: I make the words real good. 

Matt: You make the words. I'll say the words

Lauren: Perfect. 

Matt: How about that? 

Lauren: I think that's a great strategy moving forward. This is about to be a one host podcast. 

Matt: Yeah, well, we'll see how everybody feels about that. 

Lauren: I wrote a blog post this week and it was the first time in a while that I've written a blog post and it was so satisfying to be able to go back and edit my work as opposed to now when I listen. Every time I do the transcripts for these episodes, it takes so much effort to not edit the transcripts as I'm reading through them because I can't edit them. The whole point is that they're supposed to be exactly what we're saying. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: But we could speak a lot better. 

Matt: Your own personal horror novel. 

Lauren: It is. Honestly, it is. But yeah, if you are going to participate in anything like that, I would say definitely check it out. Figure out what the vibe is in there. What people are doing in there. Also a lot of these like formal community spaces, whether you're looking at a Discord server, a Circle community, a Facebook group - which we haven't mentioned yet, but there are definitely a ton of Facebook groups - 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: As loathe as I am to recommend Facebook for anything. 

Matt: I was going to say, proceed with caution with that one. 

Lauren: Yes. But for both reader communities and author communities, there are genuinely so many Facebook groups out there - 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: That you could find if you wanted to. Most, if not all of these communities are going to have some kind of formal community code of conduct in place already. I've even seen some that actually they gate their entrance and you are not allowed in until you've acknowledged that you've read through that code of conduct. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: So, you know, definitely just make sure that if you are stepping into any of these spaces that you're doing your due diligence, whether informally or formally, to make sure that you're participating in them appropriately. 

Matt: Yeah, and you know, there are some author communities too, by the way, where there's an application process to actually get in. 

Lauren: Yeah.

Matt: Which is great.

Lauren: Yeah, that's the vetting of the horror community, so. Or the horror writer group.

Matt: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, maybe I should have had applications handed out first. 

Lauren: Definitely. 

Matt: I don't know what I would have asked on it though, that would have mitigated what ended up sitting down in front of me in that coffee shop. 

Lauren: There's no way you possibly could have, like, even if you had a thorough application, you still probably wouldn't have thought of whatever you needed to think of in order to weed people out. 

Matt: No, at that point, no, I definitely would not have. I just went right into it. Like, yeah, it'll be cool to get a bunch of people together and write horror and talk about it and man, I'm gonna wipe that from my memory again.

Lauren: It's gonna be on a recording now forever. 

Matt: I just won't listen to it. 

Lauren: Okay, that's fine. 

Matt: You're very sassy today. 

Lauren: I don't know why actually. 

Matt: I don't either. 

Lauren: I don't know why.

Matt: Okay. Did you eat lunch?

Lauren: I did eat lunch. Did you eat lunch? 

Matt: I did. 

Lauren: Oh. When did you have time? 

Matt: That's the wonders of delivery. I literally in between all my back to back meetings, I ran downstairs and grabbed the DoorDash and ran back upstairs and yeah.

Lauren: Respect. So there's no excuse for either one of us to be spicy right now. So just a special episode. 

Matt: Spicy topic. 

Lauren: Yeah, that was the point. I love a good spicy topic. Happy to throw some more spice in here at any time. If anyone ever has any recommendations for a topic that you'd like us to debate or get a little heated on, you know what to do. 

Matt: Do they know what to do? 

Lauren: Yeah, they're going to email us at podcast@lulu.com. 

Matt: Oh, okay. 

Lauren: It was a good plug. Good opportunity. Super natural.

[34:13]

Lauren: As much as I just kind of tried to make the point that these are kind of separate spaces that you should not be engaging in, there are going to be times where it's necessary specifically for authors to engage in reader spaces. In fact, there are going to be times where authors are going to be invited to engage in reader spaces. 

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: I don't think that you should ever… I don't want this episode to be discouraging. I don't want this to be like a, you should never do this. You absolutely should engage and participate in reader spaces as an author. If you are invited to do so, if you're not invited to do so, I mean, do so anyway, but just make sure you're being respectful and responsible about it. I am going to reiterate that you should not reply to critical reviews from readers. You should not make any kind of video or Instagram post or Twitter thread firing back. 

Matt: Well, that takes all the fun out of it.

Lauren: It does take all the fun out of it, but it also literally never goes well for the author. Anytime that I have ever seen an author quote unquote, clap back at a critical reviewer. I just, you then just watch them get eaten alive. 

Matt: Can you explain to me and the few people that are actually listening to this podcast, what do you mean by clap back?

Lauren: If I were to leave a review for a book or not even leave a review for a book, if I was to go on Twitter and say I just read this book. I really didn't like it. I thought this was handled really poorly, and I think that, you know, this, this and this, like really didn't work with the plot and I didn't like it, whatever. If the author were then to reply to my tweet and tell me all the reasons that I was wrong for not liking their book, that would be a mistake. 

Matt: Oh, but that's also what it means to clap back.

Lauren: No, I didn't use that phrase correctly. I'm not hip. 

Matt: Oh. 

Lauren: I know. 

Matt: All right, I'm just trying to understand. But regardless, you're saying that an author should not do that. 

Lauren: Right. That is ultimately my point, is that review spaces are reader spaces. It's one thing if you are soliciting the reviews as an author, even then I wouldn't necessarily encourage you to reply to review other than to say thank you for leaving a review or thank you for sharing your review with me when I asked for it or whatever it is. But…

Matt: I think that'd be fun. Like if I was the author and you were the reader and you left a post in this community about reading my most recent book and you had just a lot of criticisms about it, whatever, and just weren't a huge fan, I think it'd be fun as an author to just go right in and just one word, thank you or two words, sorry. Thank you. And then hop back out and see what happens. 

Lauren: Now that… go for it. Go for it. 

Matt: As a reader who left that post, and if I was the author and I came in there and I just said thank you and backed out, what would you do? 

Lauren: I think I'd actually just be really embarrassed. 

Matt: That's my point. 

Lauren: But then again, you're also asking somebody. 

Matt: Would that be clapping back? 

Lauren: No, I don't think so?

Matt: Okay. 

Lauren: I don't know. Ask your kids to explain to me what clapping back is. 

Matt: Yeah. They'll explain it to me in a bunch of language I still don't understand, like Skibbidi and Sigma and Rizz and. 

Lauren: Stop.

Matt: For any authors listening, the next time you encounter a reader trying to cook you on a review or something, just go in there and say thank you. 

Lauren: Yeah, see what happens. Let us know.

Matt: I have a feeling Lauren's right. They're going to feel embarrassed at that point. 

Lauren: Yeah, it's, I mean, anyone would, but still, anytime that I have ever seen an author try to fire back at somebody for a negative review they immediately get eaten alive - 

Matt: Yeah, I mean.

Lauren: By the other readers in that space. 

Matt: I agree with that. You know, that's - there's a fine line too, right? On one side of that fine line, you have trolling. On the other side of that fine line, you have people that, however you want to describe it, they take something above and beyond to a place where it doesn't really need to go. If you're just going to drop a straight up legitimate review of a book, right? And then you leave it at that. That's fine, of course. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Matt: But if you're going to go in there and literally tear somebody's book apart, chapter by chapter, which obviously happens. 

Lauren: Yes it does. 

Matt: A lot and go all that extra way, like you deserve to be made to feel embarrassed or whatever. Like you don't have something better to do with your time. And to come into this group and just tear somebody's book apart like that. Yeah, I hope the author does go in there and say thank you and make you feel like garbage.

Lauren: I will sell tickets to that fireworks show when Matt eventually publishes his horror novel and then immediately starts responding to every review that he gets on Goodreads. 

Matt: God, now I need to do it - 

Lauren: Yeah you do. 

Matt: Just so I can do that. All right. 

Lauren: Perfect. 

Matt: I'm taking a few weeks off to write my book. 

Lauren: Oh, that's all? 

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: Okay. I'll take it. We'll see how that goes. That can be the new, we could do a whole series on the podcast about editing and revising and reviewing your book. 

Matt: Oh my God.

Lauren: Could be great. 

Matt: It'd be a short podcast. 

Lauren: It's gonna be a short book. 

[39:11]

Lauren: To get back to the not discouraging part of this. 

Matt: Yes. 

Lauren: Definitely do try to engage in some reader spaces. Maybe not in the review format. 

Matt: And don't go in there clapping back on people. 

Lauren: One day I'll figure out what that means. 

Matt: Whatever that means. 

Lauren: One day. 

Matt: Yep. 

Lauren: One day I'll figure it out. Won't be today. Maybe it'll be one of the communities that I lurk in later this afternoon. Figure out what it means. If you are going to be in those spaces as an author, it's likely going to be because you were invited into them. So if you were invited to speak to a book club, you see that happen all the time where a book club will have some way to get in touch with an author. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And they'll invite the author to like, we're going to read your book this month and we're going to do a Q&A with you, would love to invite you to be a part of that forum. Definitely a great opportunity. 

Matt: Yeah, for sure. 

Lauren: For any author. Also, I feel like it's really obvious to say, you know as the author that you are not getting the authentic feedback from those people in that setting. They're gonna be kind of on their best behavior. And I feel like that's just like a very indicative example of what I mean by like, if you are crossing the lines and engaging like as an author engaging in a reader space, you're gonna do so with a little bit of caution or like a little bit more attention to detail then you normally - and the same thing is true for, you know, let's say you're an author who's speaking at an event. 

You're speaking at a reader event. I went to one recently that was a Q&A with an author, it was an hour long Q&A with an author and then a signing. And it was really funny to watch this author dance around questions that she clearly didn't want to answer or couldn't answer from the audience. Like she would get, like the audience would ask her questions. Like what project are you working on right now? Or like, are there any plans for any more books in this series? Like right now, we don't know if there are. And it's very possible that she is in contract negotiations with her publisher to have more books come out in this series, but can't talk about it. 

As a presenting speaker at a reader event, you can't go up there and say, like, well, I'm sworn to secrecy by my publisher right now, so I can't tell you that I'm writing more books in this series, but wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Here's hoping and if everybody tweets at them and demands more books, maybe that'll turn it in my favor. 

That might be what you want to say as an author, but you probably aren't supposed to. So I feel like these are all just ways that people kind of subconsciously recognize that when you are invited as a guest into a space that isn't inherently yours, you're going to be a little bit more filtered than you would be in your own space.

If you're an author in an author community and you're telling your author friends in your author community, like, oh my God, I'm, I really think I want to do more books in this series, but I don't know if I have the bandwidth for it. I don't know like what I want to do with it. I don't know how much story I have left. Like I'd love to kind of explore this character more, but I don't know if I can turn this character into a whole, a whole story. He might actually wind up just being better as a side character than as a protagonist. You're not going to have that same conversation when a group of your fans invites you to come speak to their book club about that book that you like.

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Right? Like that would be weird. And you wouldn't do that because you wouldn't be as transparent with your fans as you would be with your fellow writers. 

Matt: Yeah, definitely.

Lauren: I feel like that was the most succinct way that I could have put that. And it took me 20 minutes to get there. 

Matt: But you got there.

Lauren: I did get there. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And that's really what this podcast is, is us talking in circles around the very clear, like one sentence that we could have said. It's amazing to me that people listen to this.

Matt: Yeah, I think I agree on all accounts. 

[42:59]

Lauren: Well, on that lovely note, do you have anything else you want to add? 

Matt: No. 

Lauren: No?

Matt: I think you did it well. 

Lauren: Thanks. Told you it was going to be mostly me talking. 

Matt: Well. 

Lauren: All I can say for sure is that Matt is not on Instagram right now because he's not on his phone. So I wasn't so boring that he tapped out to Instagram. 

Matt: No, I was actually just looking at top book sales right now on Lulu. 

Lauren: Oh, yeah? 

Matt: Yeah. I'm just curious. 

Lauren: That's exciting. I would ask you what they are, but that's a boundary that we're not going to cross on air. 

Matt: I wouldn't say that. 

Lauren: Oh. 

Matt: But we're not doing it today. 

Lauren: Oh. Well, that sounds fun. 

Matt: Yes, it does. 

Lauren: I still think we should do a review episode at some point, too, where we read zero and one star reviews. 

Matt: Yeah.

Lauren: Stay tuned for that one. 

Matt: Yeah, I agree. 

Lauren: That's going to be one day when we're really bored in the summer. 

Matt: That's next week. 

Lauren: It is not. But nice try. 

Matt: All right. 

Lauren: Well, until then, and until we figure out when that episode is going to be, thanks to everyone for listening. It's been…

Matt: Interesting. 

Lauren: That's exactly the word that I was just about to use. It's been interesting. Can't wait to edit this one. It's going to be something real special. 

Matt: Well, I think we'd also be remiss if we didn't mention the fact that there is a Lulu community for authors. I was waiting to see if you would mention it the whole time. 

Lauren: I wasn't sure if I was allowed to. 

Matt: Oh, Chelsea's going to kill us. Of course we're allowed to. It's a Lulu podcast.

Lauren: I know. I thought it was an exclusive invite only though. 

Matt: Oh my goodness. For all you authors out there or potential new authors or considering becoming an author, there is a Lulu community.

Lauren: Okay.

Matt: And there is a lot of great information there and you can talk with other authors and you can ask questions and you can learn things. So, uh, you should definitely go check out the Lulu community.

Lauren: I'm not actually sure how to direct people to it. So if you are interested, send us an email at podcast@lulu.com. 

Matt: Well, we'll just put the link to it in the show notes. 

Lauren: Oh, okay. Or you could send us an email at podcast@lulu.com. 

Matt: Yeah. I mean, we can't guarantee that we'll check the email, but - 

Lauren: I will guarantee that I will check the email. 

Matt: Okay, there you go. 

Lauren: And also, if you have any questions, comments, concerns, episode topics, if you want to argue with me about anything that I said in this episode, if you want to argue with Matt about whether or not BookTok is a reader community, now's your opportunity. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Lauren: And if not, thanks for listening.